Things Trek in general could have done better?

[Voth commando1]

I'm not saying some of it wasn't valid, just that collectively it made the show a little limited, when every other story has Rules of Acquisition this & Klingon honor that or Vulcan logic yada yada yada. Add in Data's emotionlessness & it was just too much after a while. It felt like Humans were the only well rounded species... At least the only one they explored regularly. There really was no sensible reason why Seven had to remain bereft of humanity

It's weak writing if the only way you can have character growth is by first robbing them of character

So you want Borg that sing opera and have flamboyant personalities while dancing in their alcoves?

That's not what they are or their purpose either IU or thematically.

I personally don't have any problems with "monocultures" aliens aren't human and so psychologically and biologically should not conform to human standards of personality and diversity.

 

[mos6507]

The whole point of the Borg is that they're race is a collective hivemind, so naturally they are going to by very definition express a monotype behavioural characteristic for their entire race.

And yet the nature-vs-nurture debate was challenged by Hugh and later expanded upon with 7-of-9.

Of course, once you get to DS9 then you have the fatalism of the Jem'Hadar's drug-addiction.

 

[Mojochi]

So you want Borg that sing opera and have flamboyant personalities while dancing in their alcoves?

No, but whole characters being explored like 7 of 9, with such limited character aspects, had gotten tired by then. There's like almost a dozen main characters throughout the franchise history, that have been given stunted personality traits, so to be able to "explore" their growth, and that growth is almost always to accept a more human way of being. It's really my only criticism of Star Trek. It's a stifling formula & not really the original intention. On TOS Spock was the only character & Vulcans the only race to exhibit such monotypical traits

 

[Voth commando1]

Spock in TOS was comfortable with who he was.

In DS9 Odo didn't grow to be more human.

Arguably Sisko grew to be less human.

Data-he followed humanity in imitation

On Voyager-I'd say you have two with the specifics being distinct-the Doctor didn't want to stop being artificial and eventually grew to appreciate who he was.

Seven was already human and has her humanity removed from her at the same time her Borg heritage wasn't something she ever fully abandoned.

And I don't recall anybody on Enterprise growing to be more human T'Pol just had issues and supposedly a Romulan father.

 

[Mojochi]

Spock in TOS was comfortable with who he was.

In DS9 Odo didn't grow to be more human.

Arguably Sisko grew to be less human.

Data-he followed humanity in imitation

On Voyager-I'd say you have two with the specifics being distinct-the Doctor didn't want to stop being artificial and eventually grew to appreciate who he was.

Seven was already human and has her humanity removed from her at the same time her Borg heritage wasn't something she ever fully abandoned.

And I don't recall anybody on Enterprise growing to be more human T'Pol just had issues and supposedly a Romulan father.

I didn't say all the characters were one note personalities, but many were. I actually like some of what they did with Voyagers Doctor

Spock: In TUC "Logic is the beginning of wisdom" Spock from TOS would've never said that. He grew to embrace his human side more over his lifetime
Worf: Raised by humans, & grows to accept a more human way of life than Klingon
Data: Made by a human, who failed in his previous attempt, so he made Data less human, so he could grow into it
Quark, Rom, Nog, frowned upon for being the way most greedy/self serving Ferengi are, & encouraged to be more human behaving, so much so that Nog joins Starfleet
Seven of Nine: Unlike both earlier examples of Borg being separated from the hive (Picard & Hugh) She barely seems able to wrap her head around being a fully realized indiviual soul

Tuvok & T'Pol, who I don't have any real problem with, are just more Vulcans among Starfleet character arcs, akin to Spock, which in a strange way tended to normalize the behavior much more, so they don't need to be aspiring to be more human-like, but still very "one note"

Even Garak, who I very much like, is still a variation on a one note theme, where Cardassians are supposed to be conniving & untrustworthy

I'm not saying they didn't do some interesting things with the character who has a monotype culture thing. In many cases like Garak's, They clearly did, but after so long, it was a tired trope for sure. It would've been better had they moved totally away from it at some point

 

[Voth commando1]

I didn't say all the characters were one note personalities, but many were. I actually like some of what they did with Voyagers Doctor

Spock: In TUC "Logic is the beginning of wisdom" Spock from TOS would've never said that. He grew to embrace his human side more over his lifetime
Worf: Raised by humans, & grows to accept a more human way of life than Klingon
Data: Made by a human, who failed in his previous attempt, so he made Data less human, so he could grow into it
Quark, Rom, Nog, frowned upon for being the way most greedy/self serving Ferengi are, & encouraged to be more human behaving, so much so that Nog joins Starfleet
Seven of Nine: Unlike both earlier examples of Borg being separated from the hive (Picard & Hugh) She barely seems able to wrap her head around being a fully realized indiviual soul

Tuvok & T'Pol, who I don't have any real problem with, are just more Vulcans among Starfleet character arcs, akin to Spock, which in a strange way tended to normalize the behavior much more, so they don't need to be aspiring to be more human-like, but still very "one note"

Even Garak, who I very much like, is still a variation on a one note theme, where Cardassians are supposed to be conniving & untrustworthy

I'm not saying they didn't do some interesting things with the character who has a monotype culture thing. In many cases like Garak's, They clearly did, but after so long, it was a tired trope for sure. It would've been better had they moved totally away from it at some point

You should remember it's science fiction and alien species wouldn't conform to your ideas of "personality" or "diversity".

 

[Mojochi]

You should remember it's science fiction and alien species wouldn't conform to your ideas of "personality" or "diversity".

It's also drama, that should relate to its viewer. I'm not condemning Star Trek. Would I be here if I were? but the thread asked what could they have done better? That. They could've done that a bit better. Some of that particular aspect was good, some was ok, and some of it just made me wish they'd stop doing it after a while

Somehow I knew this sentiment would get people's ire up, because it's been a longstanding aspect of the show, so to suggest it might be less than ideal is blasphemy, but in its original TOS form, it wasn't so present. I think the mix of character behavior was better on that show, that's all

 

[Voth commando1]

It's also drama, that should relate to its viewer. I'm not condemning Star Trek. Would I be here if I were? but the thread asked what could they have done better? That. They could've done that a bit better. Some of that particular aspect was good, some was ok, and some of it just made me wish they'd stop doing it after a while

Somehow I knew this sentiment would get people's ire up, because it's been a longstanding aspect of the show, so to suggest it might be less than ideal is blasphemy, but in its original TOS form, it wasn't so present. I think the mix of character behavior was better on that show, that's all

TOS also had next to no "real" aliens just humans occasionally in costumes.

But I understand your sentiment even if I disagree.

 

[Mojochi]

TOS also had next to no "real" aliens just humans occasionally in costumes.

But I understand your sentiment even if I disagree.

& there were definitely things TOS didn't do as well as the other shows. Nobody's perfect.

 

[Prax]

That must be the Vulcan version of Proverbs 9:10- "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom..."

Surak is Solomon

 

[JesseJK]

I'm not saying some of it wasn't valid, just that collectively it made the show a little limited, when every other story has Rules of Acquisition this & Klingon honor that or Vulcan logic yada yada yada. Add in Data's emotionlessness & it was just too much after a while. It felt like Humans were the only well rounded species... At least the only one they explored regularly. There really was no sensible reason why Seven had to remain bereft of humanity

It's weak writing if the only way you can have character growth is by first robbing them of character

I have to agree that it is very evident that the show aggrandized humans. But it is to be expected considering humans made the show. Just like the winners write history. To get a bit tangential, the same goes for the very immediate ecosystem: how many people can you identify who you would say are smarter than yourself? I believe to most people, they themselves are the "smartest people" they know. The only non-egocentric comments some might make are that some others are smarter in other, not-very-significant ways.

 

[JesseJK]

Such as: I can think critically but he's good at math and puzzles.

 

[Mojochi]

I have to agree that it is very evident that the show aggrandized humans. But it is to be expected considering humans made the show. Just like the winners write history. To get a bit tangential, the same goes for the very immediate ecosystem: how many people can you identify who you would say are smarter than yourself? I believe to most people, they themselves are the "smartest people" they know. The only non-egocentric comments some might make are that some others are smarter in other, not-very-significant ways.

Cripes! I really hope no one thinks that's true. I certainly don't think I'm the smartest person I know, & I'm by far not the smartest person I know of. Hell, I'd think that at least half the reason people ever try to learn anything at all, is because they aspire to the level of intelligence of others. (The other half being that they seek to better understand the world)

And yes, of course the show does aggrandize humans, which in itself is not a terrible thing. That's not really my issue. The issue is that they have to use the silly trope of limiting their alien races' character traits to one defining thing, in order to do so. While it may not be the worst way you could go about that, & it's ok in limited doses. It got overused on the show(s) imho. It's fair to say they could've been better about it. Exploring what it means to be human by featuring characters that fall short of humanity in a very specific way becomes tired quick

 

[Voth commando1]

I honestly don't mind human aggrandizement as the vast majority of sci fi is very cynical and has a low opinion of humanity and human progress. That's part of what makes Trek unique.

 

[Mojochi]

I honestly don't mind human aggrandizement as the vast majority of sci fi is very cynical and has a low opinion of humanity and human progress. That's part of what makes Trek unique.

I agree. Sadly though, because it's so rare, no one really has any idea how to do it, & Star Trek leaned toward essentially dumbing down their other cultures to achieve that goal (In some cases)

I'm honestly not indicting all of Star Trek here. It's not an unforgivable trespass, by any means, & at times it was indeed the only way to make this brand of sci-fi work. I'm only saying they could've done a little better with it, by not overkilling it as much as they did

 

[Sibyl]

I love the bright future and the "maturation" of the human race as a whole, but I agree that they could have done a lot more with alien races. I'm willing to bet that in the Federation as an entity, there are more non-humans than humans, however, we mostly see humans, and, of course, Starfleet Headquarters and the Federation itself is based on Earth.

Q's entire charge was based on the human race, alone.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Call her Edith or Carol. No need to explain to us who they are. The long time fans know and the newcomers won't miss out.

I've always felt like these were the 2 great regrets of Kirk's life.

 

[Prax]

I think Starfleet is primarily a human organization.

 

[at Quark's]

I agree that monocultural species are a bit of a problem in Trek. Klingons are aggressive, Ferengi are greedy, Vulcans are logical, etc.

With the exception of the Borg of course. The entire point of the Borg is that no deviations from their cultural "template" are allowed. Any Borg rebelling against that are, in essence, no longer Borg.

 

[Mojochi]

I agree that monocultural species are a bit of a problem in Trek. Klingons are aggressive, Ferengi are greedy, Vulcans are logical, etc.

With the exception of the Borg of course. The entire point of the Borg is that no deviations from their cultural "template" are allowed. Any Borg rebelling against that are, in essence, no longer Borg.

I might agree if they hadn't used it like a culture with Seven on Voyager. There, they play on her "Borgness" like any other monoculture trope