Things to go when Moffat leaves

[Csalem]

Den of Geek has been publishing some tidbits from an interview Moffat has in latest DWM.

Moffat felt Series 7 was "Miserable":
http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/doctor-who/41885/doctor-who-steven-moffat-says-series-7-was-miserable

And that he "fumbled" the opening of episodes of Series 9:
http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/doct...en-moffat-says-he-fumbled-the-series-9-opener

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Interesting insights. Thanks for sharing.

I hope Moffat writes his own equivalent to Russel T. Davies' The Writer's Tale a few years after he steps down. I would be very interested in reading about his experiences behind the scenes, particularly during the 50th anniversary, especially since we barely had any Doctor Who Confidential covering his era.

 

[kirk55555]

Den of Geek has been publishing some tidbits from an interview Moffat has in latest DWM.

Moffat felt Series 7 was "Miserable":
http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/doctor-who/41885/doctor-who-steven-moffat-says-series-7-was-miserable

And that he "fumbled" the opening of episodes of Series 9:
http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/doct...en-moffat-says-he-fumbled-the-series-9-opener

I thought that the first half of Series 7 was pretty good, although the second half was pretty bad. I also thought that the first two episodes of series 9 were my favorite Capaldi episodes (or at least tied with Heaven Sent), so that's a little worrying. If the whole Series had stayed as good as the first two episodes, Series 9 would have been great instead of just being good, but flawed. Hopefully Series 10 at least gets to Season 7A quality, and with no Clara it has a chance.

 

[The Wormhole]

I hope Moffat writes his own equivalent to Russel T. Davies' The Writer's Tale a few years after he steps down.

Unfortunately, I really don't see that happening. Moffat isn't generally as honest about his work as RTD is. Even if he did do write The Moff's Tale, it likely wouldn't shed light on some of the behind the scenes drama which has percolated to fandom, like Carolyn Skinner's "erasure."

 

[TommyR01D]

IIRC the summer full-grown cornfield scenes from Let's Kill Hitler were shot very close to transmission in July, for obvious reasons.

Indeed, if you watch the Confidential even for the later episodes you can see that a lot of the interviews are done in the cornfield rather than the sets which correspond to the scenes they're discussing.

The problem with the Hybrid arc was that it felt like the sugar bowl from A Series of Unfortunate Events - we never actually find out what it is or why it's important. Also, we never see the actual text of the prophecies which, judging by the episode's conclusion, must have been so vague you couldn't really predict anything from them with the certainty we saw from the Time Lords earlier on.

 

[Christopher]

The problem with the Hybrid arc was that it felt like the sugar bowl from A Series of Unfortunate Events - we never actually find out what it is or why it's important. Also, we never see the actual text of the prophecies which, judging by the episode's conclusion, must have been so vague you couldn't really predict anything from them with the certainty we saw from the Time Lords earlier on.

But isn't that the point? The prophecy is a Macguffin. What's important is how the characters react to it, what it motivates them to do, rather than what it is. And that's the way it usually is with prophecy stories. The gist of the story isn't about a straightforward arc from prophecy to realization, it's about the ways people screw things up by misinterpreting a prophecy or actually bringing it about by trying to escape from it. It's rarely about the prophecy itself so much as about what it drives people to do. And the prophecies are usually so vague that they can be easily misinterpreted or lead to surprise endings. (If you go to war, you will destroy a great empire. Oops, did I forget to mention it was your own empire?) This was your standard self-fulfilling prophecy arc that we've seen a million times in fiction -- the only reason the "Hybrid" is present at the end of Gallifrey at all is because of the Time Lords' actions in response to the prophecy about the Hybrid being present at the end of Gallifrey.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Well, I'm glad that Moffat was dissatisfied with "The Magician's Apprentice" because that's certainly been my least favorite episode of the Capaldi years. (It's also possibly my least favorite episode of the entire Moffat era but it's a tough call between that, "A Good Man Goes to War," & "The Bells of Saint John.")

Rassilon's elderly appearance can be explained as he actually regenerated into an elderly body, perhaps as a result of the strain of the Master's Sith lightening attacks?

Yeah. I'm not at all surprised to learn that Rassilon regenerated just like the Master did. I'm guessing, once the Master & Gallifrey got trapped back on the other side of the time lock, that probably no one got out of that room wearing the same face that they came in with! Seemed like a bloodbath was inevitable.

The story goes that in Series Six he had a distinct answer to the whole "The Doctor Dies" plot thread, but that with the gap halfway through the broadcast schedule, the fans online started speculating and managed to hit upon exactly the clever plot twist he had in mind, so he rapidly changed gears (which had the side-effect of screwing with the plot logic and making the whole season feel inconsistent.)

What was the original clever plot twist supposed to be?

BTW, speaking of earlier season arcs during the Moffat era, was there ever supposed to be any significance to all of the flickering light bulbs in early Season 7?

But isn't that the point? The prophecy is a Macguffin. What's important is how the characters react to it, what it motivates them to do, rather than what it is. And that's the way it usually is with prophecy stories. The gist of the story isn't about a straightforward arc from prophecy to realization, it's about the ways people screw things up by misinterpreting a prophecy or actually bringing it about by trying to escape from it. It's rarely about the prophecy itself so much as about what it drives people to do.

SEE Angel Season 3, "The father will kill the son."

But, while the whole the-answer-to-the-Hybrid-arc-doesn't-really-matter thing made a lot more sense to me the 2nd time around, it was still not a particularly exciting arc. It wasn't as engaging a mystery as the Doctor's death from Season 6 or the Impossible Girl from Season 7, nor as consistent as the cracks from Season 5 or Missy & Heaven from Season 8. And the Hybrid's non-resolution resolution also could have been clearer at the end. (Considering all of the monologuing people did in "Hell Bent," it's astonishing anything from that episode would still be unclear.)

 

[Christopher]

Rassilon's elderly appearance can be explained as he actually regenerated into an elderly body, perhaps as a result of the strain of the Master's Sith lightening attacks?

Donald Sumpter, who played Rassilon in "Hell Bent," is only three years older than Timothy Dalton. So it doesn't require any more of an explanation than, say, Peter Davison regenerating into Colin Baker. Let alone Matt Smith into Peter Capaldi.

But, while the whole the-answer-to-the-Hybrid-arc-doesn't-really-matter thing made a lot more sense to me the 2nd time around, it was still not a particularly exciting arc. It wasn't as engaging a mystery as the Doctor's death from Season 6 or the Impossible Girl from Season 7, nor as consistent as the cracks from Season 5 or Missy & Heaven from Season 8. And the Hybrid's non-resolution resolution also could have been clearer at the end. (Considering all of the monologuing people did in "Hell Bent," it's astonishing anything from that episode would still be unclear.)

Honestly, I don't think every season needs to be defined by a single overarching storyline. I'm fine with a bunch of standalone stories with maybe just a bit of foreshadowing tossed in here and there. That's what we had in the first few RTD seasons, with the scattered name-drops for Bad Wolf and Torchwood and Mr. Saxon being pretty much the extent of the "arc" plotting we got. So I don't see any reason to complain about the fact that there wasn't some big sweeping 13-chapter saga. The individual stories should be worthwhile on their own merits, not just as fragments of a larger whole. I'd be fine with a season that had no arc at all aside from character development. I mean, seriously, this is supposed to be a show about a guy wandering all over time and space. It doesn't even make sense that someone like that still somehow keeps stumbling into elements of the same developing arc in quick succession. It should be much more episodic and random in terms of the actual plots and dangers they face. Save the continuity for the character arcs, I say.

 

[The Wormhole]

Donald Sumpter, who played Rassilon in "Hell Bent," is only three years older than Timothy Dalton. So it doesn't require any more of an explanation than, say, Peter Davison regenerating into Colin Baker. Let alone Matt Smith into Peter Capaldi.

It is a bit unusual that regeneration, a process that is supposed to extend someone's life would result in them inhabiting an aged form from the start. Davison to Colin Baker is still regenerating into body still in its physical prime, and one can argue the Capaldi form is younger than Smith's was at the end.

Indeed, the only other Time Lord who seemed to regenerate into elderly bodies was Borusa, but with him it kind of works for where his storyline end up. One can assume that the frequent regenerations and always into an older body is what made him obsessed with immortality.

 

[Christopher]

It is a bit unusual that regeneration, a process that is supposed to extend someone's life would result in them inhabiting an aged form from the start. Davison to Colin Baker is still regenerating into body still in its physical prime, and one can argue the Capaldi form is younger than Smith's was at the end.

And yet Capaldi's "Who frowned me this face?" backstory (adopting Caecilius's appearance as a reminder of his obligation to save people) -- as well as the options offered to the Second Doctor for his new face at the end of "The War Games," which included "too old" and "too young" -- establishes that a Time Lord's apparent age upon regeneration is arbitrary and can be based on an outside template rather than reflecting their physiological age. Indeed, the Twelfth Doctor is extremely spry and physical, clearly much younger biologically than he looks on the surface.

 

[diankra]

Well, Capaldi is much older than Matt Smith, but a lot younger than the Smith Doctor was at the end (as Wormhole said!).
The only times the Doctor has got 'older' are Troughton/Pertwee (by about six months) and Davison/Colin (oh and Colin/Sylv, I suppose. Sylv is a few months younger, but was older when he made T&tR than Colin was when he finished work on Trial).
Rassilon might have been Sumpter for a long time. Though if so the General must have got some deageing, I guess.

 

[Solariabsg25]

I think the point of the Hybrid-prophecy arc was that prophecies are often misinterpreted, that people lead themselves into traps by reading what they want or fear into the vague language of a prophecy. All the prophecy actually said was that the Hybrid would be present at the end of Gallifrey, and the Time Lords jumped to the conclusion that that meant it would cause the end of Gallifrey. And that mistaken reading, motivated by unjustified fear, led to their actions in the story arc. Which is a commentary on letting manufactured fear and paranoia shape our policies -- a very timely statement in the current sociopolitical climate.

So of course the Hybrid-prophecy story is resolved. The fact that it had no real, great payoff was the payoff. I thought that was quite clear.

Rowling did the same thing in Harry Potter. The prophecy was only powerful because Voldemort chose to make a big thing out of it. Harry wasn't really some ultra-special chosen savior; he just got pushed into that role by everyone around him because of their expectation (especially Voldemort's) that that was who he was destined to be. What mattered wasn't the prophecy itself, but the things that people read into it and the actions they took as a result.

Xena did the same thing with the Twilight of the gods arc.

Zeus learns that the birth of Eve will see the end of the gods. He then decides to kill Eve to prevent it, leading to him killing Hera, and the confrontation with Hercules that leads to his own death. Then the other gods decide to try to take her out, leading to an all-out-war where Xena gets Ares to join her side and they take most of the gods down.

But, had Zeus followed Hera's advice and just let what would be to be, the end of the gods would never have happened.

It was Rassilon's obsession with the prophecy that eventually led to his downfall.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Yeah but the Greek gods were pretty much dicks to everyone. Why would anyone want to worship them?

 

[Christopher]

Yeah but the Greek gods were pretty much dicks to everyone. Why would anyone want to worship them?

Fear of what they'd do to you if you didn't, basically. Ancient mythologies were shaped by an awareness that the universe was governed by dangerous, arbitrary, unknowable forces that could kill you or wipe out your village at any moment for no apparent reason, and all you could do was try to appease them and pay them off as best you could and hope it would earn you a reprieve from smiting. Basically the whole thing was a divine protection racket. (And I'm sure there were plenty of people in the priesthood who had a vested interest in telling people they had to give their wealth and obedience to the priesthood in order to avoid divine retribution.)

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I want to know how Rassilon survives 2 billion years?

Rassilon had "died" early in Time Lord civilization, according to "The Five Doctors," yet he was resurrected to lead the Time War, according to "The End of Time." Time Lords have a flexible relationship with time and death.

In "The Five Doctors," Rassilon hadn't actually died at all, but rather had discovered the secret of true immortality and perpetual bodily regeneration, only to have been locked away in his "tomb" by his fellow Time Lords, who had rebelled against his cruelty (much as they did once again in "Hell Bent"). To me it seemed from The End Of Time that they let him out during the Time War because they needed his ruthless leadership and that it was likely his secret that allowed them to resurrect the fallen (including the Master as per "The Sound Of Drums").

 

[Christopher]

In "The Five Doctors," Rassilon hadn't actually died at all, but rather had discovered the secret of true immortality and perpetual bodily regeneration, only to have been locked away in his "tomb" by his fellow Time Lords, who had rebelled against his cruelty (much as they did once again in "Hell Bent").

I did put "died" in quotes, but I think "The Five Doctors" is ambiguous. I always took it that Rassilon's body had died but his consciousness lived on in some sort of floaty-Jor-El-head form as the guardian of the tomb.

 

[diankra]

But, had Zeus followed Hera's advice and just let what would be to be, the end of the gods would never have happened.

It was Rassilon's obsession with the prophecy that eventually led to his downfall.

Its pretty basic in ancient myth that trying to evade prophecy tends to fulfil the prophecy. For instance, the meeting with Death story.

 

[Solariabsg25]

Its pretty basic in ancient myth that trying to evade prophecy tends to fulfil the prophecy. For instance, the meeting with Death story.

I remember in a Xena episode (which I believe was based on a Greek myth) that there was a prophecy that a child would be born who would replace the king, but then of course it turns out that the baby would actually be adopted by the king and become his heir.

And I do remember there were numerous Greek myths detailing people trying to avoid the fates that had been decreed by the gods, leading to these very fates.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

^ Eh, still better than the Greek myths about people having sex with bulls.

As for looking older than the body you've regenerated into, Capaldi is himself younger than he looks. He looks a lot more wrinkled than a mere 58. He pulls off the look really well though.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

^ Eh, still better than the Greek myths about people having sex with bulls.

As for looking older than the body you've regenerated into, Capaldi is himself younger than he looks. He looks a lot more wrinkled than a mere 58. He pulls off the look really well though.

What do you mean myths there is old artwork based on that and its kinda gross.