Things that really took you by surprise

[SilentP]

She was told to leave the lab after the discovery was made, seems that it was fairly easy to guess why they'd suddenly decide to close the lab when there seems to be no other reason.

Is there an online source with the script available? If so, we could use it to see if they made the explicit link, but I didn't think it was really necessary. Obviously, you'd disagree here.

She was not told to. And the script is not the movie. There are a few transcripts out there, though, one of which I already quoted.

Care to provide a direct link? All I can come up with on a Google search is one on IMDB that doesn't match what we got on screen, parodies, or sites that are blocked where I am.

You do fail to mention the previous lines where Gaila states that she thought she was meant to be gone all night, which then carries on with the dialogue you quote. Uhura goes to the lab with intention of staying there whole night, makes the discovery, then instantly leaves. And without telling anybody?

I know you believe that everything associated with this movie is idiotic (as anyone who reads your posts in this subforum would know without fail), but are you really going to tell me that a character would just up and leave the lab after making that discovery, and only tell her roommate? Why not just stay there and carry on doing what she was doing?

 

[Shazam!]

And why on Earth would Uhura feel guilty for the destruction of Vulcan ?
She didn't do it obviously and simply knowing of the Klingon attack is hardly enough to figure out in time there will be an attack of such magnitude on Vulcan lightyears away the next day.

Exactly. Why would she? It would at least provide something, anything, to give the character some dimension.

I'm not going to argue the toss about whether Uhura alterted her superiors - it's okay to come to your own conclusions regarding that - but as if she wouldn't be thinking she could've done more.

It would be unnecessary angst for the sake of angst and really not interesting at all.

Yeah, the movie was already brimming with unnecessary angst.

 

[SilentP]

And why on Earth would Uhura feel guilty for the destruction of Vulcan ?
She didn't do it obviously and simply knowing of the Klingon attack is hardly enough to figure out in time there will be an attack of such magnitude on Vulcan lightyears away the next day.

Exactly. Why would she? It would at least provide something, anything, to give the character some dimension.

This, I won't argue with. Sure, she's getting more than what she did in previous incarnations, but she needs more to survive as a character that's apparently big enough in importance to go on the posters instead of McCoy.

I'm not going to argue the toss about whether Uhura alterted her superiors - it's okay to come to your own conclusions regarding that - but as if she wouldn't be thinking she could've done more.

Probably, but from what we see of her in the role of a Starfleet crew member, she's among the more professionally inclined compared to most of the main talkers of the Enterprise bridge crew. She probably accepts at that point that it's out of her hands. I could be wrong on how I'm reading that aspect, however.

It would be unnecessary angst for the sake of angst and really not interesting at all.

Yeah, the movie was already brimming with unnecessary angst.

Was that sarcasm there? I'm not sure

 

[Shazam!]

Probably, but from what we see of her in the role of a Starfleet crew member, she's among the more professionally inclined compared to most of the main talkers of the Enterprise bridge crew. She probably accepts at that point that it's out of her hands. I could be wrong on how I'm reading that aspect, however.

It would provide an extra layer to when she tells Spock that she's sorry.

Was that sarcasm there? I'm not sure

A little.

 

[SilentP]

Probably, but from what we see of her in the role of a Starfleet crew member, she's among the more professionally inclined compared to most of the main talkers of the Enterprise bridge crew. She probably accepts at that point that it's out of her hands. I could be wrong on how I'm reading that aspect, however.

It would provide an extra layer to when she tells Spock that she's sorry.

Ooo, I hadn't thought about that little bit there. I hadn't made that connection but it could be inferred to be a more personal admittance than a cliched platitude.

Was that sarcasm there? I'm not sure

A little.[/QUOTE]

Gotcha.

 

[barnaclelapse]

Sarcasm from a Trekkie?

DAMNABLE LIES.

I...

GAH!

I'M SO ANGRY IN THE FACE OF SUCH NONSENSE!

**********
Okay, maybe, I should go get another cup of coffee or something. I think I'm trying too hard to stay awake.

 

[Dusty Ayres]

First off, it's not "me and only me." That criticism has been a longstanding criticism of TOS, especially amongst feminist critics and anti-racist critics, both of whom believe having Uhura as the communications officer plays into stereotypes of the black, female secretary answering the phone.

These being the same anti-racists who beat up Worf for being a black Klingon, and made a lot of noise about Geordie LaForge being blind.

No, she isn't answering the phone, but that's something we're repeatedly told but almost never see. "Show, don't tell" is a vital role if the creators are going to avoid accidently playing into those stereotypes, and it's one that's rarely followed.

Can't people fill in the blanks in their own minds anymore? Must things be spelt out for them all the time?

Making Uhura the chief of security would answer the longstanding question of just who is COS aboard the Enterprise anyway, while also giving the character something to do that's more directly related to an action-oriented plot, and while also avoiding Unfortunate Implications.

Then it becomes Star Trek: The Next Generation and not Star Trek: TOS

There was no indication that Lt. Cupcake was the chief of security.

From the way he said 'Come with me-Cupcake!' to Kirk, I'd pretty much say that he was COS.

And if she was made security, that leaves the question of who takes it over when she's on away missions.

It was never a problem on TNG when Worf -- who also performed the functions of communications officer -- went on away missions. Why would it be for nuTrek?

Again, this makes it just a retread of TNG rather than TOS

They blew up Vulcan. I think we've already crossed the Rubicon of "what will the TOS purists think?"

And what you want will piss them off even more, as I've said above about the use of TNG tropes in TOS.

For the most part, in BSG, all that Dualla basically did was what Uhura did, and she still had a great role and did lots of things, as well as have a great (although controversial) love life and tragic end. Why not see what Uhura is in the same light? Why borrow TNG tropes for TOS?

 

[M'Sharak]

Actually, she did, that was why the lab was shut to the cadets after she made the discovery, presumably while the superior officers studied the info and tried to get their heads around what was happening. However, since Nero attacks Vulcan in the next day or so, it's likely the connections may not have been made by Starfleet Intelligence quick enough to give any real preparation to the rest of Starfleet.

Yes, making up stuff yourself makes my point invalid.

And it's really idiotic to think that a cadet would not alert the superiors for such an incident. Maybe there was even a supervisor in the lab with the cadets.

But I suppose some need movies to spell out every single thing for them.

Well, since we're there... You are an idiot, too.

Okay, fine -- you're even, with one "idiot" apiece. Now, if Jarod wants to slip Salvor some tongue, we can call this a draw.

Yes, ignoring stuff that happens in the movie makes my point invalid.

What happened in the movie:
UHURA: Strangest thing... I was in the long range sensor lab.
GAILA: Yeah, I thought all night...
UHURA: I was tracking solar systems and I picked up an emergency transmission.
GAILA: Really?
UHURA: Yeah. From a Klingon prison planet.
GAILA: No.
UHURA: Yeah. A Klingon armada was destroyed, 47 ships.
GAILA: So, you're not going back to the lab tonight?
UHURA: Gaila, who is he?
GAILA: Who's who?
UHURA: The mouth-breather hiding under your bed.

What you made up didn't happen and was never mentioned. But it's all good thing for Kirk, because it makes Uhura and Starfleet seem totally stupid, so he can be the only one who makes the correct conclusion. Especially Pike, who was about to get killed on the Kelvin, wrote a thesis about the incident, and couldn't connect A to B. He's the Captain of the flagship. He would have been briefed about an attack on 47 Klingon ships, had Uhura forwarded it to superiors. But, well, I'm making that up.

The bits I've underscored would seem to suggest that Uhura's scheduled shift was cut short after the intercept of the Klingon transmission. It's not explicitly stated that she reported the info to her superiors and was dismissed so that the big-league intel boffins could get to work, but I don't think that it needed to be -- that's what the dialogue which you've quoted seemed to me to be implying: that Uhura was back earlier than expected and that she was not returning for the remainder of her shift. Connecting those dots says that something was up and that it was no longer just business as usual.

 

[SilentP]

Now, if Jarod wants to slip Salvor some tongue, we can call this a draw.

I know this is a serious post, but was that...turn of phrase intentional, or is it just my dirty mind?

 

[Sector 7]

Aren't we a little bit oversimplifying and wrongly diminishing the importance of Uhura's station and job on the bridge by constantly referring to it as just "answering the phone" ?

It's a simplification, but it illustrates an important point: Unless the character is given something else to do, having the only female lead serve only as communications officer plays into extant American stereotypes of women only being able to serve as secretaries.

I know. They should have had her sit next to the captain's chair and say shit like: "I sense danger." She would have been way more useful then.

OH, HELL NO! The best thing about the new movie is NO DEANNA TROI!

Now, if Jarod wants to slip Salvor some tongue, we can call this a draw.

I know this is a serious post, but was that...turn of phrase intentional, or is it just my dirty mind?

I admit, it would make the "idiotic" banter much more interesting!

 

[Sci]

First off, it's not "me and only me." That criticism has been a longstanding criticism of TOS, especially amongst feminist critics and anti-racist critics, both of whom believe having Uhura as the communications officer plays into stereotypes of the black, female secretary answering the phone.

These being the same anti-racists who beat up Worf for being a black Klingon, and made a lot of noise about Geordie LaForge being blind.

An over-simplification of other peoples' complaints about separate characters does not change the fact that I am not the only person who objects to having the only African-American and female lead be the communications officer (as you inaccurately claimed), nor does it mean that their criticisms are invalid.

Then it becomes Star Trek: The Next Generation and not Star Trek: TOS

Borrowing a single trope from TNG does not make nuTrek TNG. But this isn't TOS. It's not a TOS movie. It's a new branch of the franchise, as distinct from TOS as TNG is, and there's nothing wrong with borrowing a single trope from TNG.

From the way he said 'Come with me-Cupcake!' to Kirk, I'd pretty much say that he was COS.

That's only evidence that he was the lead officer on that security team. There was no indication that he was COS.

They blew up Vulcan. I think we've already crossed the Rubicon of "what will the TOS purists think?"

And what you want will piss them off even more,

Who cares?

 

[SalvorHardin]

Now, if Jarod wants to slip Salvor some tongue, we can call this a draw.

I know this is a serious post, but was that...turn of phrase intentional, or is it just my dirty mind?

Eeeeeeewwwwwwwww !

 

[Shazam!]

And what you want will piss them off even more

Who cares?

You're right. If there is a bunch of people who have issues with what made Star Trek TOS such a success, they should just shut up, so...

First off, it's not "me and only me." That criticism has been a longstanding criticism of TOS, especially amongst feminist critics and anti-racist critics, both of whom believe having Uhura as the communications officer plays into stereotypes of the black, female secretary answering the phone.

...shut up.

 

[SilentP]

Now, if Jarod wants to slip Salvor some tongue, we can call this a draw.

I know this is a serious post, but was that...turn of phrase intentional, or is it just my dirty mind?

Eeeeeeewwwwwwwww !

Salvor, you keep giving, but never recieve, how unfair.

 

[JarodRussell]

What surprises me the most, in retrospect, is how this movie is actually so totally dependent on the original Star Trek (despite the many occasions where Abrams said it wouldn't be). It wouldn't work as a standalone movie, it wouldn't work if you had never ever heard anything about Star Trek before (and couldn't check on it later on), and it especially wouldn't work if this was the very first Star Trek movie. Yes, you would understand it (that's not the problem) but it wouldn't make a lasting impression. It does make an impression now because it's the movie that made Star Trek cool again.

One thing - as discussed in the other thread - is Kirk becoming Captain at the end of the movie. It's not a character development, because the character is at the end the same as in the beginning, the only difference is the uniform. It's not a reasonable progression, because, well, he is made captain of a supersized space flying aircraft carrier after only three days and blabla. He is just made Captain at the end, because in the franchise he is Captain Kirk.

Same goes for his "friendship" with Spock. He has to meet Spock Prime, the old universe, to be pushed to like that guy. And Quinto-Spock has to be told by Prime Spock that he has to be friends with Kirk and that he basically has to ignore the destruction of Vulcan to be able to continue at Kirk's side as in TOS. Storywise, that's pretty ugly.

Nero is a Romulan without any backstory other than he hates Spock and lost his wife and homeplanet. No backstory on what the Romulans actually are, how they really look like, whatsoever. It only works because you already know the Romulans from the show. Heck, the backstory on why the Narada is so powerful so that it's able to destroy entire fleets as a major plot device must be read in a comicbook. I personally find that terrible. Why don't we just show action sequences and tell the audience to read the article on Wikipedia for the story?

So I really wonder how this movie would have been without Nimoy and if they had really handled this like this had been the very first incarnation of Star Trek ever. I think it would have been better. With Nimoy's absence, they would have been forced to basically change the entire story into something better, I guess. Kirk's and Spock's relationship would have needed to form naturally, for example. And Kirk would have needed a much better reason to become Captain in the end other than "because he is fucking Captain Kirk!"

 

[SilentP]

What surprises me the most, in retrospect, is how this movie is actually so totally dependent on the original Star Trek (despite the many occasions where Abrams said it wouldn't be). It wouldn't work as a standalone movie, it wouldn't work if you had never ever heard anything about Star Trek before (and couldn't check on it later on), and it especially wouldn't work if this was the very first Star Trek movie. Yes, you would understand it (that's not the problem) but it wouldn't make a lasting impression. It does make an impression now because it's the movie that made Star Trek cool again.

Very true actually, now that you point it out. Problem is that there are still plenty of fans out there, so it's hard to really make something that we know to be as deep in content as Star Trek immeadiately accessible with just 2 hours and not feel like that to fans that they feel like they're being forced through Star Trek 101.

Still they could have done a lot better introducing us to the other races, especially the Romulans. It's maybe hard for some of us long time Trek fans to know how much info we're automatically filling in ourselves into the background fluff of the movie that isn't told specifically on screen.

However, I never heard JJ saying anything about the film not being dependant on original Trek (if I understand how you're using it), but then again, I tried to avoid as much publicity in the form of interviews about it as possible.

 

[Sci]

And what you want will piss them off even more

Who cares?

You're right. If there is a bunch of people who have issues with what made Star Trek TOS such a success, they should just shut up,

I never said they should shut up. I just said that there's no reason to care if TOS purists don't like changes introduced in nuTrek.

so...

First off, it's not "me and only me." That criticism has been a longstanding criticism of TOS, especially amongst feminist critics and anti-racist critics, both of whom believe having Uhura as the communications officer plays into stereotypes of the black, female secretary answering the phone.

...shut up.

No thanks!

What surprises me the most, in retrospect, is how this movie is actually so totally dependent on the original Star Trek (despite the many occasions where Abrams said it wouldn't be). It wouldn't work as a standalone movie, it wouldn't work if you had never ever heard anything about Star Trek before

I went to see ST09 with two non-Trekkie friends of mine who had never watched Star Trek before and had no real idea what Star Trek was about. They both loved the movie.

It's not a character development, because the character is at the end the same as in the beginning, the only difference is the uniform.

No, he has changed. He and Spock have both learned to reconcile their differences and work together as friends. Surely that's completely in keeping with both the needs of character development and the spirit of Star Trek.

Same goes for his "friendship" with Spock. He has to meet Spock Prime, the old universe, to be pushed to like that guy.

No, he has to learn to see Spock in a different light, from Spock's perspective, to understand what there is to appreciate in him.

And Quinto-Spock has to be told by Prime Spock that he has to be friends with Kirk and that he basically has to ignore the destruction of Vulcan to be able to continue at Kirk's side as in TOS. Storywise, that's pretty ugly.

No, he's told by his older counter-part that he will grow into a better person through his friendship with Kirk -- which is, again, perfectly in keeping with Trek's philosophy. IDIC and all that. And Spock would still be serving the Vulcan people, because he's serving Starfleet, the institution that will no doubt be charged with defending New Vulcan and with helping the Vulcans rebuild their society. The Vulcans aren't foreigners, after all -- they're Federates, too.

Saying that Spock is ignoring the destruction of Vulcan by staying in Starfleet is like saying that a native New Orleanian who stays in the U.S. Navy is ignoring the destruction from Hurricane Katrina. It's a false dilemma.

No backstory on what the Romulans actually are, how they really look like, whatsoever.

No, we were told that Romulans are descendants of the Vulcans, which is all we needed to know for this movie. Anything more would have been extraneous information.

And we know what they really look like because we see them. That complaint doesn't even make sense.

 

[GhostFaceSaint]

Seeing Spock's mother Amanda die, followed by the destruction of Vulcan was the most surprising aspects of the movie for me. Those were some real teary-eyed moments.

The success of the film was also a bit of a surprise for me, Star Trek had gone through a bad period and to see it turn around with this film is very cool. I liked the fact that there was interpersonal conflict, that Starfleet officers would act naturally like people in the military being jerks sometimes while drunk at a bar. Roddenberry had white washed Trek too much for me to have some of it age well which it hasn't been for me and my friends lately. They really brought back elements from TOS and still kept its optimism. I feel that this Trek is more three-dimensional with its characters and therefore more mature with its story telling. Star Trek is in good hands right now.

 

[PhasersOnStun]

The bits I've underscored would seem to suggest that Uhura's scheduled shift was cut short after the intercept of the Klingon transmission. It's not explicitly stated that she reported the info to her superiors and was dismissed so that the big-league intel boffins could get to work, but I don't think that it needed to be -- that's what the dialogue which you've quoted seemed to me to be implying: that Uhura was back earlier than expected and that she was not returning for the remainder of her shift. Connecting those dots says that something was up and that it was no longer just business as usual.

Good analysis, and I agree completely!

What surprises me the most, in retrospect, is how this movie is actually so totally dependent on the original Star Trek (despite the many occasions where Abrams said it wouldn't be)

Sure it did. My wife saw it without knowing TOS, and became a big fan. We took her good friend who didn't know TOS, and she also loved it. One of the editors I work with was taken by her husband—she didn't know Trek/TOS, but loved the movie. These stories are myriad. So without a doubt, this movie was well-capable of being found quite entertaining for non-TOS fans who didn't know TOS.

 

[Sci]

What surprises me the most, in retrospect, is how this movie is actually so totally dependent on the original Star Trek (despite the many occasions where Abrams said it wouldn't be)

Sure it did. My wife saw it without knowing TOS, and became a big fan. We took her good friend who didn't know TOS, and she also loved it. One of the editors I work with was taken by her husband—she didn't know Trek/TOS, but loved the movie. These stories are myriad. So without a doubt, this movie was well-capable of being found quite entertaining for non-TOS fans who didn't know TOS.

Ditto. I went with two friends who were almost completely unfamiliar with Star Trek, and they loved it.