They DID NOT just destroy... [SPOILERS]

[rfmcdpei]

Now, obviously what the 2009 movie alleged to have happened to Romulus is not exactly the same as that, but that's where Praxis comes in. There we did see something described explicitly as a "subspace shock wave," clearly travelling faster than light and depicted as having harmful or destructive effects. That's not exactly the same either, but it and GEN do demonstrate that it's at least potentially possible for the effects of a supernova or cosmic explosion to propagate faster than light. So while the Romulus situation of 2387 is distinct from those events in a number of ways, those events do provide precedent for that general class of events, i.e. cosmic explosions that have some effects propagating faster than light through subspace.

A subspace shock wave emanating from a star, especially one that was apparently large and massive enough to cross interstellar space relatively quickly and destroy the Romulus system, yeah I can believe that. But Praxis? Yes, I understand what you're talking about, I suppose you could say maybe the dilithium in the moon helped cause that, but on the one hand, if something like that could really occur, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near it! Can you imagine the kind of detonation necessary to cause it? Whew!! Also, it seems to me that the damage to the Qo'noS system would have been far more extensive than just decimating the planet's ozone layer. One would think there should have been huge asteroid and meteoroid bombardment and probably ground quakes and all sorts of natural cataclysms that the movie doesn't mention. Not to mention the beginnings of formation of at least a temporary ring system.

Cast No Shadow does establish the existence of a Praxis ring in the 2290s.

As for the rest, well, I guess the survival of Qo'Nos as a heavily-populated class-M world after one of its moons explodes with sufficient force to propel material light-years away via subspace is Star Trek's equivalent of Star Wars' Endor Holocaust. (As (this technical page puts it, "What happens when you detonate a spherical metal honeycomb over five hundred miles wide just above the atmosphere of a habitable world?") Qo'Nos and Endor survived because they had to, for plot reasons.

 

[Christopher]

Cast No Shadow does establish the existence of a Praxis ring in the 2290s.

The novel Sarek does depict meteoric debris periodically striking Qo'noS in the aftermath of Praxis.

As for the rest, well, I guess the survival of Qo'Nos as a heavily-populated class-M world after one of its moons explodes with sufficient force to propel material light-years away via subspace is Star Trek's equivalent of Star Wars' Endor Holocaust.

What material? We saw an expanding ring of purple cloudy stuff, yes, but that's how Trek traditionally depicts subspace energies and spatial distortions and the like. Visual effects often take poetic license to make things clearer to the audience, like showing ships right next to each other when dialogue says they're thousands of kilometers apart or showing visible weapons fire in vacuum where it would probably be invisible with nothing to scatter the light. (And for some reason, gravitational and subspace phenomena tend to be color-coded purple or blue.) So I prefer to trust in the dialogue and the characters' reactions rather than whatever possibly impressionistic/symbolic representation the VFX artists may have chosen. And the dialogue called it an "energy wave" and a "subspace shock wave." No mention of any physical debris, unless you read Sulu's "Don't tell me that was any meteor shower" in a certain way.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Cast No Shadow does establish the existence of a Praxis ring in the 2290s.

The novel Sarek does depict meteoric debris periodically striking Qo'noS in the aftermath of Praxis.

As for the rest, well, I guess the survival of Qo'Nos as a heavily-populated class-M world after one of its moons explodes with sufficient force to propel material light-years away via subspace is Star Trek's equivalent of Star Wars' Endor Holocaust.

What material? We saw an expanding ring of purple cloudy stuff, yes, but that's how Trek traditionally depicts subspace energies and spatial distortions and the like.

Point. Nonetheless, if the Praxis shock wave was strong enough to buffet a Federation starship light-years away, I've difficulty imagining how Qo'Nos survived mostly intact.

 

[RPJOB]

Perhaps the ring expanded at a 90 degree angle to the orbital plane of Praxis and didn't directly impact the planet. The could have been secondary effects on Qo'Nos but the message from Kerla didn't seem nearly as disastrous as the one from Praxis itself.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch1/tuc0040.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/tuc/ch1/tuc0042.jpg

 

[Christopher]

Nonetheless, if the Praxis shock wave was strong enough to buffet a Federation starship light-years away, I've difficulty imagining how Qo'Nos survived mostly intact.

In Aftermath, I posited that a subspace shock wave (which, naturally enough, would propagate through subspace and not normal space) would only affect objects in normal space if they had some kind of connection or resonance with subspace, such as, say, a set of warp coils. So starships would be affected but planets would not.

Of course, you could also assume that the film's really, really stupid decision to depict a shock wave in space as a two-dimensional expanding ripple (by an overly literal analogy with ground waves in footage of nuclear explosions) was somehow actually true, in which case it would've only damaged things that happened to be in the plane of of the wave itself. It would be incredibly unlikely that the Excelsior would just happen to be in that plane, but it does mean that, depending on how the plane was oriented, it could've easily missed Qo'noS altogether. Because it's not like everything in the whole universe is lined up in a single flat plane, no matter how much filmmakers may want to pretend it is.

 

[RPJOB]

Sulu's log entry at the beginning of the movie said that they were moving at impulse so the subspace shockwave did apparently extend into normal space. Perhaps if the Excelsior had been at warp it would have been destroyed. Perhaps the destructive power is caused by the unstable protrusion of subspace into normal space.

 

[StarFleetVeteran]

Wow. So, I haven't been back to this thread since I posted it, and after skimming through it, I've seen some good points, some points that I'm not even sure have anything to do with my post, and some people who kinda seem downright nuts. ^_^ No offense.

That said, I just finally finished reading Raise the Dawn. I thought both of the books in the duology were written very well, and I thought it was pretty cool to see the return of some old Niner faces like O'Brien, Nog, Odo and Weyoun; Sisko and Kasidy's reunion, but at the end of it all, I'm still just blah. Deep Space 9 (the REAL DS9) is still gone, now Kira and the wormhole are gone (for now), not to mention Sela (presumably) and Vaughn (was hoping maybe the Prophets would restore him, as he was one of the few Relaunch characters I actually liked or cared about). It's just not Deep Space Nine to me anymore. Yeah, it's got some of the same characters and the new station has the same name, but it'll just never be the same for me.

That's just my opinion. Which I am entitled to, though I'm sure some of you will try to tell me how wrong I am or change my mind or make some remark about being "resistant to change." So what if I am? My life has changed far too many times. Star Trek is the fantasy world that I've chosen to immerse myself in when I wish to escape reality for a little bit, so sue me if I think it sucks to see characters and places I grew up loving change, move on and/or be destroyed. While I have no complaints on how recent books have been written, I still don't like where TrekLit has come in recent years, at least for the most part. Will I keep reading? Yeah, probably. It's the only Trek fix I get as of late. But I hope maybe Pocket Books will consider publishing some new books set during the various series.

I guess that's all I got to say about that. For the moment.

 

[Mage]

That's just my opinion. Which I am entitled to, though I'm sure some of you will try to tell me how wrong I am or change my mind or make some remark about being "resistant to change."

Let's hope to God they don't! The biggest issue with this forum is that the opinions of others are not respected. Sure, you don't have to agree with them, but at least respect it. Hell, I see things differently then you, but that doesn't mean we have to bash each other's head in, right?

All I can say is, I hope that for you personally, TrekLit will get more interesting again.

 

[StarFleetVeteran]

Let's hope to God they don't! The biggest issue with this forum is that the opinions of others are not respected. Sure, you don't have to agree with them, but at least respect it. Hell, I see things differently then you, but that doesn't mean we have to bash each other's head in, right?

All I can say is, I hope that for you personally, TrekLit will get more interesting again.

Exactly, and thank you! You, sir, rock.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think I've seen any significant tendency to attack other people's right to have different opinions about a book. What I've seen is people objecting when someone who didn't like the book attacked the author personally, or reminding people who were angry about Sisko's arc in RBoE that it was just the first step in his arc and they should be patient and see where it leads, rather than judging future books they haven't read yet.

Now you have read the whole thing, you did see where it led, and you've said you don't care for it. You're not unfairly attacking the author or jumping to a conclusion about something you haven't read or insulting other posters who disagree with you; you're simply offering an informed personal opinion that the story you have read is not to your taste. And that is perfectly fine. I'd be surprised if anyone objected to it.

 

[Mage]

I don't think I've seen any significant tendency to attack other people's right to have different opinions about a book. What I've seen is people objecting when someone who didn't like the book attacked the author personally, or reminding people who were angry about Sisko's arc in RBoE that it was just the first step in his arc and they should be patient and see where it leads, rather than judging future books they haven't read yet.

Now you have read the whole thing, you did see where it led, and you've said you don't care for it. You're not unfairly attacking the author or jumping to a conclusion about something you haven't read or insulting other posters who disagree with you; you're simply offering an informed personal opinion that the story you have read is not to your taste. And that is perfectly fine. I'd be surprised if anyone objected to it.

I respectfully disagree. We've seen people getting angry at other people for their opinion. As in, 'how can you like JJ's Star Trek, it's so stupid, everyone should see that' or 'it's so stupid that you hate JJ's Star Trek'. Just as an example (the reboot seems to get the most out of people). I find it sad that people can't simply say 'so that's how you feel about? Well, I have a different opinion, but it's fine for you to have yours'.

 

[Christopher]

I wasn't talking about the board in general, I was talking about reactions to DRGIII's Typhon Pact novels.

 

[Mage]

I wasn't talking about the board in general, I was talking about reactions to DRGIII's Typhon Pact novels.

Ah, I see. I was talking about the board in general. I should have been more clear when I stated that.

 

[JD]

The only times that people really seem to have a problem with other people's opinions is when the other opinion is really a good reason to not like something. As long as you give a reasonable, well thought out analysis people don't seem to have a problem with it.

 

[Christopher]

^Did you mean "not really a good reason not to like something?"

 

[R. Star]

The only times that people really seem to have a problem with other people's opinions is when the other opinion is really a good reason to not like something. As long as you give a reasonable, well thought out analysis people don't seem to have a problem with it.

What is and isn't "reasonable" or "well thought out" is an opinion itself. People aren't always going to agree with one's position and honestly life's too short to "have a problem" every time someone else advocates a different position.

That said, yes there's a difference between saying, "Kirk sucks!" as opposed to saying "Kirk's morals and dedication to Starfleet are quite questionable when he's willing to disobey orders and steal Federation property."

 

[Sho]

For me, my beef is code of conduct: It's fine to have an opinion, it's not fine to voice it without respect (for the venue if nothing else) and courtesy.

 

[JD]

The only times that people really seem to have a problem with other people's opinions is when the other opinion is really a good reason to not like something. As long as you give a reasonable, well thought out analysis people don't seem to have a problem with it.

^Did you mean "not really a good reason not to like something?"

Oops, yeah.

The only times that people really seem to have a problem with other people's opinions is when the other opinion is really a good reason to not like something. As long as you give a reasonable, well thought out analysis people don't seem to have a problem with it.

What is and isn't "reasonable" or "well thought out" is an opinion itself. People aren't always going to agree with one's position and honestly life's too short to "have a problem" every time someone else advocates a different position.

That said, yes there's a difference between saying, "Kirk sucks!" as opposed to saying "Kirk's morals and dedication to Starfleet are quite questionable when he's willing to disobey orders and steal Federation property."

That's pretty much what I'm saying. Most of the time people don't seem to have a problem with the latter. It's mainly just when people say something like the first one, and then don't have any kind of a defense that people start getting annoyed.

 

[flandry84]

There are many things in your post STARFLEETVETERAN that I agree with,the loss of the station in particular and even more the loss of Vaughn(I too was very fond of this character).It does seem that a whole slew of the elements that fused the DS9 story together have been cast aside(the wormhole and the unstable political situastion of Bajor itself).
I look forward to the next installments in the series though and I hope that the DS9 series is back track.

 

[Romulus Prime]

Aside from "We hate Feddie Bears," what's the common ground with members of the Typhon Pact? Why and HOW can they put aside aspects of their nature to form alliances?

That's a great question. It's also a great two-line description of the first batch of Typhon Pact novels.

While I can't guarantee you'd like them, that very question was clearly at the forefront of all the authors' minds in writing these books. It's one without a straight-forward message-board-length answer. But it's one addressed by the novels themselves. It's one of the things that makes them interesting! This isn't "super-star-trek-baddie-team-up" - how and why this would happen is a big part of the stories.

And honestly, given the amount of time you've spent posting and discussing this very topic on here, I'm struggling to buy your "I read the summaries and I'm not interested" line. You're clearly very interested in how the hell this happened. But you're making an assumption that it happened because of 'bad writing'. I won't spoil them, but trust me, the books provide a consistent, logical explanation for how the Typhon Pact came about. And frankly you seem so into that topic that I really can't imagine you not loving them.

It's not necessarily bad writing at all - it's the concept or plots which usually don't do it for me. Fanfics tend to have both, which is why I don't bother with them.

Everyone loves New Frontier, and Peter David is a great writer.

I didn't like it. The "alien" name of the captain, the human appearance of some of the key "aliens," some of the crew - it just didn't do it for me. Contrary to what many fans of ANY genre think, I can actually NOT like certain episodes/series/books AND still be a fan. In this case, I'm picky about the types of books I read, and if they don't sit well with me, I'm probably not going to continue to read them.

Right now, I'm slogging through a Steampunk novel called The Buntline Special. The characters fit exactly how I would imagine them, and even though I'm a steampunk fan, I'm not "dying" to keep reading it. In contrast, I'm not a major vampire fan, but I've found Barb and C.J. Hendee's Noble Dead series to be amazing and I can't get enough of their books.



-----------------------

I am telling you right now that you are wrong, and that if you were to read Star Trek: Destiny with an open mind...

I might be wrong about the intent of the writer. I'm not "wrong" about how I feel because that's my OPINION of how many previous Trek (and Star Wars) books read FOR ME. In turn, I don't think you are "wrong" for liking something I don't. Now I already said I'd purchase Destiny which already implies my mind is "open," thus it's a non-issue in this case.



It's not unfounded. I haven't just read 1, 2, or 3 Trek books in my lifetime, l've read or tried to read at least 20 different Trek books in the past 20yrs either by different authors, or ones I like or am familiar with. I find many of them read like fan-fics. Every now and then, I find a diamond in the rough, like Vanguard, but more often than not, I feel Trek books are a let-down. You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

If you like Vanguard you'd probably like the rest of the stuff coming out now, if you'd actually read them. And at least then you'd actually know what the hell you're talking about when arguing with the other posters here.

If you go to a restaurant, and 5 out of the 10 items you've ordered weren't so good, yet the other 5 were great, how willing would you be to try new items?