It would depend upon the quality and nature of the holodeck program. It could have been anything from an exacting historical reconstruction, put together by using the best recordings and logs and historians to an imagined holodeck adventure with a loose archer-era theming for flavour. Riker uses the them 'calling up an historic holo-programme' which tells us it probably isn't entirely the second option, but not much beyond that.
These Are The Voyages - a better watch without TNG involved?
- Thread starter FederationHistorian
- Start date
Remember that in TATV, not only was everyone the same rank and position they were in 2155, they looked the same. No new wrinkles, no hair changes, no beards. That adds credence to my theory that Riker's holosimulation was using outdated imagery. And if he's using outdated imagery, why not an equally outdated crew roster?
Sorry, but claiming that nothing changes in 6 years is not a strong argument, considering that the crew of Voyager mostly stayed the same over 7 years. It's better to look at a span of 10 years and compare with various characters in the franchise.
Kirk – TOS S3 (captain) & TMP (admiral), and then again with TWOK (admiral) & GEN (retired captain)
Scotty – TOS S3 & TMP (greying and grew a moustache)
Chekov - TOS S3 (ensign) to TMP (lieutenant) to TWOK (commander)
Sisko - Battle of Wolf 359 (lieutenant, clean shaven) & Battle of Cardassia (captain, shaved head & goatee)
Worf - TNG S1 (lieutenant, junior grade) and DS9 S5 (lieutenant commander)
TNG crew – S1 & FC (uniform change, Riker grew a beard, Geordie trades his VISOR for ocular implants, and Wesley isn’t a part of the crew anymore)
Janeway – captain in VOY S1 and vice admiral in NEM
Now, look at ENT.
T’Pol – trades Vulcan subcommander ranking and Vulcan commissar uniform worn in 2151 for a civilian catsuit, Starfleet commission Starfleet rank of commander and more makeup in 2161.
Archer - keeps his haircut from 2153-55 in 2161, but Archer had the same haircut from 2151-52 in “First Flight” in 2143, so maybe he like wearing the same hairstyle for a decade before changing it, or keeping a certain look for a decade might be a thing that's done in the mid-22nd century. Also, a decade prior in “First Flight” Archer was ranked commander.
Trip – lieutenant in “First Flight” and commander & chief engineer in 2153
Admiral Forrest – commodore in First Flight, admiral in S3
Even Reed, presumably if he graduated Starfleet Academy in the late 2130s (since he was born in 2117), he would have spent a decade at ensign himself and then be promoted to lieutenant shortly before Enterprise launched. So, Mayweather and Sato being ensigns the entire time actually does make sense, issues with nepotism aside.
Plus the ship was decommissioned; if Archer was stuck being captain for a year on the way back to Earth (likely due to a demand in the Treaty of Cheron requiring United Earth ships to be decommissioned immediately), then so was the rest of the crew.
And with Shran, his attire is very different from what he wore while as a member of the Imperial Guard, and may be standard Andorian civilian wear.
The issue is that the writing isn’t as good as it could have been, although its entirely possible that the writers forgot some of this stuff. And that they carried over some of the bad habits with VOY over to ENT.
Kirk – TOS S3 (captain) & TMP (admiral), and then again with TWOK (admiral) & GEN (retired captain)
Scotty – TOS S3 & TMP (greying and grew a moustache)
Chekov - TOS S3 (ensign) to TMP (lieutenant) to TWOK (commander)
Sisko - Battle of Wolf 359 (lieutenant, clean shaven) & Battle of Cardassia (captain, shaved head & goatee)
Worf - TNG S1 (lieutenant, junior grade) and DS9 S5 (lieutenant commander)
TNG crew – S1 & FC (uniform change, Riker grew a beard, Geordie trades his VISOR for ocular implants, and Wesley isn’t a part of the crew anymore)
Janeway – captain in VOY S1 and vice admiral in NEM
Now, look at ENT.
T’Pol – trades Vulcan subcommander ranking and Vulcan commissar uniform worn in 2151 for a civilian catsuit, Starfleet commission Starfleet rank of commander and more makeup in 2161.
Archer - keeps his haircut from 2153-55 in 2161, but Archer had the same haircut from 2151-52 in “First Flight” in 2143, so maybe he like wearing the same hairstyle for a decade before changing it, or keeping a certain look for a decade might be a thing that's done in the mid-22nd century. Also, a decade prior in “First Flight” Archer was ranked commander.
Trip – lieutenant in “First Flight” and commander & chief engineer in 2153
Admiral Forrest – commodore in First Flight, admiral in S3
Even Reed, presumably if he graduated Starfleet Academy in the late 2130s (since he was born in 2117), he would have spent a decade at ensign himself and then be promoted to lieutenant shortly before Enterprise launched. So, Mayweather and Sato being ensigns the entire time actually does make sense, issues with nepotism aside.
Plus the ship was decommissioned; if Archer was stuck being captain for a year on the way back to Earth (likely due to a demand in the Treaty of Cheron requiring United Earth ships to be decommissioned immediately), then so was the rest of the crew.
And with Shran, his attire is very different from what he wore while as a member of the Imperial Guard, and may be standard Andorian civilian wear.
The issue is that the writing isn’t as good as it could have been, although its entirely possible that the writers forgot some of this stuff. And that they carried over some of the bad habits with VOY over to ENT.
Its something that makes sense given the time period. It just wasn’t explained as well as it should have been. Its not even head canon.
We know Reed was still an ensign in 2149 while working for Section 31 and at minimum was an ensign for 8 years.
We also know that Captain Hernandez called her one pipped helmsman(helmswoman?) a lieutenant. So a single pip is also used for junior lieutenants and its at least possible that Sato and Mayweather were junior lieutenants. Especially since they weren’t actually called ensigns the entire episode.
We see that while characters take a decade to move up the ranks (Archer, Trip), they still move up the ranks. There are no Harry Kims here waiting around for years on end for a promotion. Promotions just move more slowly in this era.
We know that Sato is a Lt. Commander when she retired in 2165. So, it would be sensible to conclude that Mayweather – being the same rank as her – would also be a Lt. Commander by 2165. And based off that trajectory – if it still takes a decade to move up the ranks - then Mayweather should be captain by the 2180s, Reed a commodore, Phlox is the head of Starfleet medical, & T’Pol an admiral while Archer is Federation President. While Sato and Trip are doing other activities outside of Starfleet.
The fact that no one was promoted or even transferred to a different division or starship a decade later is probably the least interesting thing about the finale. And probably integral to understanding Trek’s idea of 22nd century Earth and the economics of that particular period. Trip behaving like a temporal agent or even possibly crushing on Archer is the more interesting story.
And who says that the crew didn’t colour any apparent grey hairs? It is supposed to be a different time period and closer to our age. That include caring about appearances.
We know Reed was still an ensign in 2149 while working for Section 31 and at minimum was an ensign for 8 years.
We also know that Captain Hernandez called her one pipped helmsman(helmswoman?) a lieutenant. So a single pip is also used for junior lieutenants and its at least possible that Sato and Mayweather were junior lieutenants. Especially since they weren’t actually called ensigns the entire episode.
We see that while characters take a decade to move up the ranks (Archer, Trip), they still move up the ranks. There are no Harry Kims here waiting around for years on end for a promotion. Promotions just move more slowly in this era.
We know that Sato is a Lt. Commander when she retired in 2165. So, it would be sensible to conclude that Mayweather – being the same rank as her – would also be a Lt. Commander by 2165. And based off that trajectory – if it still takes a decade to move up the ranks - then Mayweather should be captain by the 2180s, Reed a commodore, Phlox is the head of Starfleet medical, & T’Pol an admiral while Archer is Federation President. While Sato and Trip are doing other activities outside of Starfleet.
The fact that no one was promoted or even transferred to a different division or starship a decade later is probably the least interesting thing about the finale. And probably integral to understanding Trek’s idea of 22nd century Earth and the economics of that particular period. Trip behaving like a temporal agent or even possibly crushing on Archer is the more interesting story.
And who says that the crew didn’t colour any apparent grey hairs? It is supposed to be a different time period and closer to our age. That include caring about appearances.
What's not being taken into consideration is that a huge war had supposedly taken place and just ended before the events of TATV. There's no logical way that any of those people would still be serving under Archer by that point. At the very least, Trip and Reed would have been given their own commands, and promotions to go along with that. It's simply not believable that they're all still on the same ship and haven't increased in rank despite the political and wartime situation going on at that time.
No hollow pips mean there’s no diminishing between ensign and junior grade lieutenants. Or lieutenant and lieutenant commanders. And therefore, no distinguishing between experienced officer and inexperienced officers besides their official record. It may not have been reinstated and more created in response to a larger exploration service.
Yeah, but you’re also omitting the important parts.
Reed and Trip have been on a Romulan ship before. And T’Pol herself would pass as a Romulan. Its completely believable that Starfleet Intelligence or Section 31 or the Vulcan Ministry of Security approached them to perform espionage and sabotage on the Romulan Empire during the war effort. Then had them physically altered, gave them their cover and dropped them off in Romulan space with other Vulcan agents to work for the next four years. Which would mean their ranks and commission would be suspended until Enterprise or another allied ship picked them up.
With the Interspecies Medical Exchange, there surely had to have been a human doctor who was able to work under Archer and assist Phlox during the war effort. And that individual did his/her job and either died or transferred onto another ship.
Mayweather would definitely leave to help his family on the Horizon and other freighter families, which would suspend his rank and commission until he returned to Enterprise.
Sato would stay and translate Romulan languages, various languages of other species unknown to Earth (ex the Debrune and the Iconians) and perform electronic warfare to jam communications, hack into Romulan databases and be a codebreaker for Romulan and Reman communications. As well as be assisting Archer in first contacts with species that are neutral in the conflict and see if they will trade resources with Earth in the conflict. She at least should be promoted, with all these various tasks listed. But maybe she did not want to be promoted due to the added responsibilities on top of what she was ready doing. And maybe being the only member of the original crew being promoted but not being assigned to a different ship would make her a specific target for Romulan spies. Not to mention being close to Archer, and that she’s a good chef in her own right and could give Chef a night off every now and then.
Similarly, with Shran possibly aboard Enterprise, there a chance he’ll be impersonated by an Orion doppleganger, since Orions have been seen to impersonate Andorians before. So, it would be a reason unrelated to the Romulan War for Shran to fake his death, to out the doppleganger.
All the more reason why you don’t keep them together. None of that matters if the one ship all those people are serving on gets destroyed in the war. You don’t keep all of your prized assets in one place. If anything, Trip and Malcolm’s experience being on a Romulan ship would have made them instant experts and they would have been recalled to Earth to debrief Starfleet Command rather than being placed in danger out in the front lines.
And still allows Reed and Trip to be around each other for 10 years straight.
Although to be fair, we don’t really know how often Enterprise was sent to the front lines into battle. The United Earth Military had to have ships of their own to send to the fight, even if they were not as fast as Enterprise.
Although to be fair, we don’t really know how often Enterprise was sent to the front lines into battle. The United Earth Military had to have ships of their own to send to the fight, even if they were not as fast as Enterprise.
RIKER: "Computer, recreate a simulation of NX01 Enterprise. Year 2161."
COMPUTER: "Simulation complete. Enter when ready."
RIKER: "Good. Create a holosimulation of Archer himself, at his station."
Archer materializes on the holodeck.
RIKER: "All right. Create holosimulations of the following crew members: T'Pol, Charkes Tucker III, Travis Mayweather, Hoshi Sato, Travis Reed, and Dr. Phlox."
COMPUTER: "Warning. Not all of those crew were in the NX01 Enterprise in 2161. Simulation will not be historically accurate."
RIKER: "Understood. Give all characters the rank and appearance they had when serving on the Enterprise."
2155 versions of all characters appear.
COMPUTER: "Simulation complete."
Pretty straightforward, really.
COMPUTER: "Simulation complete. Enter when ready."
RIKER: "Good. Create a holosimulation of Archer himself, at his station."
Archer materializes on the holodeck.
RIKER: "All right. Create holosimulations of the following crew members: T'Pol, Charkes Tucker III, Travis Mayweather, Hoshi Sato, Travis Reed, and Dr. Phlox."
COMPUTER: "Warning. Not all of those crew were in the NX01 Enterprise in 2161. Simulation will not be historically accurate."
RIKER: "Understood. Give all characters the rank and appearance they had when serving on the Enterprise."
2155 versions of all characters appear.
COMPUTER: "Simulation complete."
Pretty straightforward, really.
Again, the lack of promotions is the least interesting thing about the finale.
- We are supposed to believe that T’Pol and Trip were over with for six years and Hoshi never mustered the courage to ask Trip out after admitting she though he was cute? Or would never pursue him after they took different assignments after Enterprise? Surely hormones would overcome differentiation in rank too among a crew of 83?
- Phlox has three wives, but are they the same three wives, since "E2" suggested he's open to marrying a MACO? And did he bring the entire family, including their husbands, or just those three?
- If the Denobulans were present at the funding ceremony, why is it a mystery if they did or did not join the Federation? Is it related to their use of eugenics? Even on DIS they have not been seen in the Federation.
- Riker was only concerned about T’Pol and Archer’s reaction to Trip’s death, but not the rest of the senior staff that he talked to, or Shran???
- For that matter, Riker never talked to Archer in the galley. Actually, he never talks to Archer at all. It’s one thing for Archer to not be mentioned by anyone in the 24th century, but Riker doesn’t talk to the holographic version, and neither does Troi. Why?
- Were Sato, Mayweather and Reed being considered VIPs supposed to be consolation (presumably from the same Admiral Douglas mentioned at the start of the episode) for not being promoted in the span of 10 years? Why not, you know, promote them since you’re an admiral and hold rank above Archer?
- That 10 years later, T’Pol gives Archer good advice and he still ignores her?
The imaging chamber is supposed to be able to heal plasma burns and yet, Trip still dies? Why not put him in stasis if biobeds can do that and he’s that critically injured? Its been seen before on TNG, which this episode wanted to reference, so why couldn’t this have been the first time the biobed was used in this manner?
- We are supposed to believe that T’Pol and Trip were over with for six years and Hoshi never mustered the courage to ask Trip out after admitting she though he was cute? Or would never pursue him after they took different assignments after Enterprise? Surely hormones would overcome differentiation in rank too among a crew of 83?
- Phlox has three wives, but are they the same three wives, since "E2" suggested he's open to marrying a MACO? And did he bring the entire family, including their husbands, or just those three?
- If the Denobulans were present at the funding ceremony, why is it a mystery if they did or did not join the Federation? Is it related to their use of eugenics? Even on DIS they have not been seen in the Federation.
- Riker was only concerned about T’Pol and Archer’s reaction to Trip’s death, but not the rest of the senior staff that he talked to, or Shran???
- For that matter, Riker never talked to Archer in the galley. Actually, he never talks to Archer at all. It’s one thing for Archer to not be mentioned by anyone in the 24th century, but Riker doesn’t talk to the holographic version, and neither does Troi. Why?
- Were Sato, Mayweather and Reed being considered VIPs supposed to be consolation (presumably from the same Admiral Douglas mentioned at the start of the episode) for not being promoted in the span of 10 years? Why not, you know, promote them since you’re an admiral and hold rank above Archer?
- That 10 years later, T’Pol gives Archer good advice and he still ignores her?
The imaging chamber is supposed to be able to heal plasma burns and yet, Trip still dies? Why not put him in stasis if biobeds can do that and he’s that critically injured? Its been seen before on TNG, which this episode wanted to reference, so why couldn’t this have been the first time the biobed was used in this manner?
Maybe that was a "what if" scenario, what he might do if he was sent back in time and had to create a new life for himself.
Given that Archer is clearly his focus... good question.
Because, while he did a lot of good for Trek in general, it's nonetheless well established that Rick Berman wouldn't know proper ranking up if it came up and bit him on the nose.
Some things never change.
The “what if” scenarios in S3 tended to foreshadow future events though, even if they still happen later on than depicted.
“Twilight” showed Sato as a Lieutenant and then her bio in IAMD shows that she retired with a rank of Lt. Cmdr, when her fate could have been that of a red shirt. Similarly, it showed that T’Pol got a field commission and then she does indeed get one the following season. As well as the Enteprise-2 bridge upgrades with the Columbia. I don’t find it hard to believe that the rest of the crew’s future and future ship upgrades were hinted at in “Twilight” and “E2”, alone with the bios or Archer and Sato in IAMD.
- Reed at least reached commander, is serving on an Intrepid-type and stays a bachelor.
- Mayweather marries a MACO. Its possible that the MACO he marries -Corporal McKenzie - marries a different NX class helmsman.
- Sato has two kids with husband Takashi Kimura. Developed the linguacode translation matrix in the late 2160s to assist in first contacts. Dies in 2246 on Tarsus IV.
- Trip and T’Pol marry and have Lorian. T’Pol becomes captain and pioneers the T’Pol Maneuver, and later resigns her Starfleet commission. Trip is at least offered a command.
- Phlox teaches future physicians, returned to Denobula and still has his Rigelian parrot, which has a lifespan as long as his. Similarly, its possible that the MACO he married – Amanda Cole - married a Denobulan eventually, although not Phlox.
- Archer has a daughter and makes first contact with the Ikaaran. Becomes an admiral at 50, ambassador to Andoria at 57, becomes a Federation Councilman at 63 and finally Federation President at 72. Dies in 2245 the day after the launch of the USS Enterprise.
- Shran became a General.
- Reptilian and Insectoid Xindi were probably still hostile towards humans and their allies in the mid-2160s and employs Yridian spies.
- NX class, Intrepid types and Warp Deltas were still in service by the mid-2160s.
- Enterprise got shields from Shran and upgraded phase cannons (later adapted for laser tech within a decade), upgraded the injectors to reach warp 6.9 with the warp 5 engine, obtained an isomagnetic collector, and had a tractor beam installed. It becomes a well worn & battlescarred ship, and was turned into a school at some point post 2160. It also likely spent 2155 and 2156 on patrol over colonies and escorting convoys to settle on new colonies. ENT spent a great deal of time preordaining or foreshadowing the future for the ship, crew, and United Earth Starfleet as a whole.
I don’t find it hard to believe that Phlox would have had a human wife at some point. Wasn’t his friendship with Crewman Cutler trending in that direction before the actress playing her sadly passed away?
Yes, it is. Surely if it’s a historical event, then Archer reflects on that moment at some point later on in his life. And if he regretted it, it would reveal a contrast when compared with Admiral Pressman.
But I wouldn’t blame Mayweather and Reed if they decided to retire from Starfleet at the same time as Sato though. I’m sure they had contributions to make to their respective fields like Sato did that are still in use centuries later.
I wonder if the reverse ever happened to T’Pol i.e. she’s a captain and her first officer does not listen to her.
In fairness, Hoshi is a smart girl. Trip may be cute, but dating someone who has such a messy history with another staff member feels like a recipe for trouble (I tried that in college and would not recommend it.)
But you do bring up the point that all of their personal lives seem weirdly static, not just their professional ones. I'm just not sure what the 6 years time jump really added to it - part of the problem is that the episode seems a lot like when you've run out of the steam after pulling an all nighter and just throw something together, rather than something deeply thoughtful, and TNG doesn't really a make a difference to that vibe.
The only personal changes we see are,
- Trip and T’Pol ended their relationship after the death of Elizabeth, which is understandable
- Shran married Jhamel and has a daughter, which also makes sense
- Most of the crew confiding with Chef, which we have never seen before. Only the crew thanking Chef for a meal when they were in the catwalk in S2, and numerous reference the Chef during the series, suggesting that they did interact with him. But not as a confidant. Although, considering that we never see the crew get therapy upon returning from the Xindi mission and were sent back out after 3 months of shore leave with a couple of returns to Earth within the span of a year, maybe this is what prompted the crew to see Chef in this light.
Outside of that, the personal lives of the crew are indeed static, despite what the entire season suggested about the direction for each of them.
I feel a lot of the dialogue between Troi and Riker could have been rewritten to fit the ENT cast (Treaty of Algeron and the Federation cloaking ban become Treaty of Cheron and all experimental invisibility shields banned for the Romulans while Starfleet decommissions all United Earth ships; Pegasus can refer to a top secret mission carried out by Enterprise where 71 crewmembers lost their life and a mostly empty and lonely ship afterwards; Admiral Pressman becomes Admiral Douglas and swears the surviving crew to secrecy regarding the mission; the member of the crew acknowledging that Chef is the closest thing to a counselor on board; Enterprise will become a museum ship; Riker living with the guilt of the Pegasus for 12 years becomes Shran knows his associates for 12 years) and the rest of the plot remains in tact.
Alternatively, the episode would have been a decent sequel to “The Pegasus”, dealing with the immediate aftermath of those events.
Either direction would have led to a more respectable finale. The solution chosen was more in the middle.
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