These Are The Voyages - a better watch without TNG involved?

[FederationHistorian]

So, after much debate of this polarizing episode, I decided to edit TATV to see if it would work better without the TNG elements being a part of the episode. After a few snips and resized scenes, and overcoming a previous copyright claim, I managed to complete it.

My playlist is comprised of several clips of TATV, but with certain Riker and Troi scenes removed to make the episode focus on the crew of Enterprise. Riker still appears as chef, a MACO and an NX-01 crewman, but blends in better without the 24th century uniform. I will note that there are scenes of a damaged Enterprise; I was trying to show it damaged after several battle in the Romulan War and reused shots from the Xindi arc for it. There was a larger version that reused several scenes from the Xindi arc and the Romulan episodes to create a Battle of Cheron as the remade teaser if the episode, but I've chosen not to upload that.

If you can watch my playlist (IDK, since the last time I tried to upload this playlist, I got copyright claimed) do you think it’s an improvement over what was aired as the finale? Or does it make no difference to you?

[REMOVED]

 

[Oddish]

I'd rather say that it was a holodeck fantasy by Riker, that was using stock footage that was six years old. That way, I can figure that some of the characters featured had been promoted and/or moved to new assignments.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Kudos to you for making an effort to turn the Thing back into an Enterprise episode.

I must admit, I have not been able yet to bring myself to watch your stalwart effort to improve this awful travesty. Apologies. But the bulk of my problems about the show are structural; the Beebs, in their hellbent effort to shoehorn TNG into this plotline, seemed to have completely forgotten the basics of effective story structure and character continuity.
Great that you took as much Riker and Troi out as you could (but if that horrible scene with Chef Riker kissing our beautiful T'Pol on the cheek is still in there, I would ) But alas, this ghastly hour would still be crippled by Dopey Suicidal Trip, T&T's completely inexplicable breakup, the absence of promotions even after both Xindi and Romulan wars, Hoshi complaining about the seats for the memorial service, the jaw-dropping explanation that Trip learned to be a Warp Five starship engineering miracle worker by messing around with...boats... and an ending devoid of any emotional satisfaction, except for the ships and Star Trek "To boldly go..." narrative by our Captain Archer.

I swear, it seemed at every turn that the Beebs wanted to character assassinate Trip before actually murdering him. Jealousy much?

(p.s. Good on you for battling the copyright claim killer. I finally got around it for my music videos back in the day by claiming Fair Use, did you try that?)

 

[FederationHistorian]

Kudos to you for making an effort to turn the Thing back into an Enterprise episode.

Thanks! It was worth the effort, imo.

but if that horrible scene with Chef Riker kissing our beautiful T'Pol on the cheek is still in there, I would

No worries, I cut out Riker kissing T’Pol.

(p.s. Good on you for battling the copyright claim killer. I finally got around it for my music videos back in the day by claiming Fair Use, did you try that?)

Fair use wasn’t accepted, surprisingly. I think it was because when I originally uploaded it, they were 10-15 minutes long, so it was like I was uploading the entire episode, which wasn't the intent. So, I shortened the key parts of the video to 3 minutes or less and stated that all rights belonged to CBS in the description.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

No worries, I cut out Riker kissing T’Pol.

YAY! One horrible scene of that horrible Thing justly retired. It was just so... words don't suffice, so

Fair use wasn’t accepted, surprisingly. I think it was because when I originally uploaded it, they were 10-15 minutes long, so it was like I was uploading the entire episode, which wasn't the intent. So, I shortened the key parts of the video to 3 minutes or less and stated that all rights belonged to CBS in the description.

Smart workaround! I did okay with my clips...the audio was another problem for a couple songs until I Fair Used again. Soundtracks are better, you don't get hassled.

Having done musicvids, I know how much work you put into your revised episode. Glad you found it worthwhile!

 

[somebuddyX]

TATV could work better a couple of ways. If it hadn't been the series finale. If the events in 2161 were just flashbacks. If the events in the TNG-era were on the Titan or Enterprise-E. TATV is kind of a poor mans The Deconstruction of Falling Stars and Sleeping in Light rolled into one.

 

[Oddish]

My ideas...
1. Set it in 2155.
2. Move it to before the last two-part episode.
3. Make the little girl Shran's niece.
4. DON'T @$#*!-ING KILL TRIP!

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

You just cut the 2 best characters in Enterprise out of the entire show

 

[Oddish]

If you mean Deanna and Will, absolutely not. They're there, just like before. Their episode is a decent but forgettable mid-season piece of fan service, as opposed to a travesty of a series finale.

 

[Dukhat]

The problem is that the Riker/Troi stuff is only one flaw in an episode full of them. Even deleting all their scenes, there are still the issues of:

1. Why is the ship being decommissioned so early?

2. Why haven't any of the crew been promoted in all that time?

3. Why did Shran go from a position of authority in his government to some petty thief?

4. Why did Trip handle the issue of the boarders in the absolute stupidest way possible?

5. Why does nobody seem to care that Trip got killed?

6. Why make such a big deal about Archer preparing to give his speech, and then not actually show said speech?

7. Why are there zero mentions of the Romulans or the war?

8. Why is T'Pol acting so weirdly out of character?

 

[Oddish]

1. Why is the ship being decommissioned so early?

2. Why haven't any of the crew been promoted in all that time?

3. Why did Shran go from a position of authority in his government to some petty thief?

4. Why did Trip handle the issue of the boarders in the absolute stupidest way possible?

5. Why does nobody seem to care that Trip got killed?

6. Why make such a big deal about Archer preparing to give his speech, and then not actually show said speech?

7. Why are there zero mentions of the Romulans or the war?

8. Why is T'Pol acting so weirdly out of character?

1. In my reimagining, it's not, because this is midseason; it'll be used next episode.
2. With no "hollow pip" ranks evident, promotions may be less frequent. In any case, in my reimagining, less than 4 years have passed.
3. The kid is Shran's niece, so maybe his brother is the thief.
4-5. In my version, Trip doesn't die.
6. In my version, the founding of the Federation is years away.
7. The war hasn't started yet.
8. Since six years haven't passed, instruct Jolene Blalock to stay in character a little more.

 

[FederationHistorian]

The problem is that the Riker/Troi stuff is only one flaw in an episode full of them. Even deleting all their scenes, there are still the issues of:

1. Why is the ship being decommissioned so early?

2. Why haven't any of the crew been promoted in all that time?

3. Why did Shran go from a position of authority in his government to some petty thief?

4. Why did Trip handle the issue of the boarders in the absolute stupidest way possible?

5. Why does nobody seem to care that Trip got killed?

6. Why make such a big deal about Archer preparing to give his speech, and then not actually show said speech?

7. Why are there zero mentions of the Romulans or the war?

8. Why is T'Pol acting so weirdly out of character?

1.According to his bio in IAMD, Archer only commanded the NX-01 until 2160. And odds are that Archer told Starfleet that Enterprise was built to last 110+ years after their encounter with the second Enterprise in “E2”. Maybe it’s more important to the Federation to have warp 7 ships than have a ship that can last a century, and this is the origins of Federation ships being consider old after only a couple of decades in service. So, in other words, internal politics that’s above the crew’s paygrade.

Alternatively, it was a requirement of the Treaty of Cheron that all United Earth vessels be immediately decommissioned.

2,The best I can come up with is:

• Concerns over nepotism while Archer is captain (Trip, Hoshi, Mayweather)
• Section 31 operative and can’t be promoted (Reed)
• Reluctant to obtain a field commission (Phlox)
• Starfleet commission is 3 years less than the rest of the crew, so a promotion – especially for a Vulcan after the past century of Earth-Vulcan relations - would look odd. That or its deliberate. (T’Pol)

In any case, promotions for the crew after the ceremony would be in line with when they received their promotions in “Twilight”.

3.Its possible that Shran made a lot of enemies in his 12 years of captaining the Kumari that made faking his death necessary. Doesn’t change the fact that his “death” occurs in the middle of the Earth-Romulan War and his reasonings are tenuous at best.

4. IDK. There is no good reason that does not invoke time travel and keeping the integrity of the timeline intact. As for the program itself, maybe some Vissians were using the holodeck and are still upset about the cogenitor Charles and changed the holoprogram to have Trip die instead and didn’t bother to change it back? And Riker never noticed because he doesn’t really know 22nd century history. With Troi, who knows if she knew, since she did suggest that the program’s off and may have just been stringing Riker along after that. To what ends I have no clue, although she is an empath and can sense guilt.

5.Maybe the ceremony was postponed for a few months? It would explain why Federation Day is listed as occurring on May 8, according to Star Trek: Star Charts, which was released during Enterprise’s run. And the It’s Federation Day newsclipping in Picard’s photo album in GEN that’s dated October 11 that never made it onscreen. If you read the novels, August is when the ceremony happens and supports the idea that the original founding day was moved due to Trip’s death. It’s a lot easier to believe than the crew just being callously numb to Trip’s death.

Plus, it is a holoprogram. How do we know that during the actual events Mayweather, Sato, and Reed weren’t still quite pissed that Trip unnecessarily died while they were talking amongst themselves in that VIP booth?

6. Maybe the captain’s oath was a part of the speech, even though in-universe Archer would be quoting Zefram Cochrane. And that scene with the Enterprises was just a timeskip to the end.

7. Archer is out of touch with the rest of United Earth and other founding species and still thinks that space 9/11 (i.e. the Xindi attack) is still the most important event of the 2150s and changed everyone’s lives? And the crew and Shran are just quietly agreeing as to avoid upsetting him when reality suggests that’s no longer the case?

8. Too much trellium-D in her blood and not enough kolinahr rituals on Vulcan? Or maybe she participated in the Romulan War and she’s still bothered over her participation underneath since Surak’s teachings suggests a non-violent path.

 

[Oddish]

Well, if you take the episode as the finale, I guess you can justify it... but why bother?

I say that...
1. Tom Paris never reached Warp 10 and had salamander babies with the captain. The whole thing was a nightmare after eating too much leola root stew.
2. There was already a massive push on Ferenginar for increased female rights (explaining why gowns were available). Ishka was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
3. Will Riker's holodeck recreation of 220 years past had some significant historical errors. Hoshi was a lieutenant, Reed was reassigned to Earth so he could feed data to S31, and Travis (the most competent person on the crew) was a commander and serving as the NX-03's first officer.

With these beliefs in my head canon, I'm a lot happier.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Some pretty cool efforts here to put lipstick on a pig! ...Apologies to pigs everywhere, they are all much prettier than the Thing.

But it's always a fun exercise to take the worst excuse for a story you can find, and figure out how to improve it. As we all can see, there are always other shades of lipstick that could make the pig... er, the episode... easier on the eyes. Noplace to go but up.

 

[Dukhat]

1. In my reimagining, it's not, because this is midseason; it'll be used next episode.
2. With no "hollow pip" ranks evident, promotions may be less frequent. In any case, in my reimagining, less than 4 years have passed.
3. The kid is Shran's niece, so maybe his brother is the thief.
4-5. In my version, Trip doesn't die.
6. In my version, the founding of the Federation is years away.
7. The war hasn't started yet.
8. Since six years haven't passed, instruct Jolene Blalock to stay in character a little more.

Unfortunately your head-canon doesn’t change what was seen in the episode itself. The easiest way IMHO to justify that mess is to say that Riker’s holoprogram was full of historical inaccuracies.

 

[Oddish]

That's not head canon, unfortunately. It's my envisioning of how "TATV" should have been inserted into the series: as a tolerable but forgettable piece of midseason fan service. Basically a 1.5-star episode (scale of 0 to 4) that gets an extra half star for sneaking Jonathan Frakes into yet another Trek series, and another one because Jeffrey Combs was in it.

There's a difference between re-imagining (it would have been so much better like this) and head canon (this is what I think really happened). My post previous to this one is pure head canon.

 

[Dukhat]

Um, no offense, but what happened in the episode is how it happened. No one in charge of dictating Star Trek canon has ever said that it happened differently from what we saw on screen. Any other interpretation (including my own about the possibility of an inaccurate holodeck program) is purely personal head canon, personal reimagining, or whatever you choose to call it. Even the novels, which chose to ignore what was seen on screen, doesn’t count because novels aren’t canon either.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Well, if you take the episode as the finale, I guess you can justify it... but why bother?
...

3. Will Riker's holodeck recreation of 220 years past had some significant historical errors. Hoshi was a lieutenant, Reed was reassigned to Earth so he could feed data to S31, and Travis (the most competent person on the crew) was a commander and serving as the NX-03's first officer.

The easiest way IMHO to justify that mess is to say that Riker’s holoprogram was full of historical inaccuracies.

It probably is, since its possible to create inaccurate setting and individuals with the holodeck ( Dr Leah Brahms & Barclay’s holodeck fantasies, for instance).

At minimum, it makes more sense that Trip was made ambassador to Krios Prime and is raising his kid that he shares with the First Monarch from “Precious Cargo”. And Starfleet agreed since he could also keep tabs on an expanding Klingon Empire and had his death faked for that reason. That’s probably the assignment that T’Pol was referring to in the shuttlepod.

 

[Oddish]

Um, no offense, but what happened in the episode is how it happened. No one in charge of dictating Star Trek canon has ever said that it happened differently from what we saw on screen. Any other interpretation (including my own about the possibility of an inaccurate holodeck program) is purely personal head canon, personal reimagining, or whatever you choose to call it. Even the novels, which chose to ignore what was seen on screen, doesn’t count because novels aren’t canon either.

No offense taken. I know exactly what head canon is. Ditto with personal reimagining. The former exists within the parameters of actual events: we NEVER ONCE saw Hoshi or Travis on the Enterprise as ensigns in the actual 2161, just Riker's cosplay recreation of it. Because of this, I can say that my head canon is that actual history unfolded differently. Your italicized statement is true in your eyes, but not VERIFIABLY true. And until proof comes (one way or the other), I am happy to agree to disagree.

However, the fact that "These are the Voyages" was the series finale... that is verifiable. So I can say what SHOULD have happened in that episode, but I can't change what did. As I said, that's reimagining.

 

[Dukhat]

No offense taken. I know exactly what head canon is. Ditto with personal reimagining. The former exists within the parameters of actual events: we NEVER ONCE saw Hoshi or Travis on the Enterprise as ensigns in the actual 2161, just Riker's cosplay recreation of it. Because of this, I can say that my head canon is that actual history unfolded differently. Your italicized statement is true in your eyes, but not VERIFIABLY true. And until proof comes (one way or the other), I am happy to agree to disagree.

However, the fact that "These are the Voyages" was the series finale... that is verifiable. So I can say what SHOULD have happened in that episode, but I can't change what did. As I said, that's reimagining.

Yeah, I see where you’re coming from. And believe me, the only redeemable quality about TATV is that because we were watching a holoprogram, there is still the possibility that events actually unfolded differently from what we saw. Unfortunately as I mentioned before, no one in charge of canon has decided to go that route, and for all intents and purposes, what we saw is how it happened.