there will be 'no Papa-Nicole moments'

[Sci]

^ I agree that the series doesn't portray them that way because it would insult the audience. That's why I said "if we're being realistic". Obviously the show can't be. But, a 2000 year old being is to a 20 year old as a 30 year old is to a 4 month old baby!

I mean, maybe? It's not like anyone's ever lived that long.

It's entirely possible that there may be a point where emotional maturity just plateaus -- where you just hit a certain age and there's really no more emotional growth, just a perpetuation of whatever personality has developed. I mean, looking at real life (where the oldest recorded human being was, IIRC, 125 at time of death), is there a meaningful difference in emotional maturity between, say, a 120-year-old and a 60-year-old? Apart from the issues caused by the elder party's decreased physical acuity, is there a meaningful difference between the relationship between a 60-year-old and a 25-year-old, and the relationship between a 120-year-old and a 25-year-old?

My suspicion would be that at a certain point, the relationship between someone very old and someone younger simply stops growing, that the numerical age gap ceases to be proportional to the emotional age gap. That, at a certain point, being older just registers as being older, and the exact age itself ceases to matter.

 

[Captaindemotion]

I remember a great cartoon in Private Eye, with an older man entering a brothel. He and his escort greeted each other with 'Papa?' 'Nicole?'

 

[Pingfah]

See, now that's an incest joke.

 

[Mr Awe]

Sci, perhaps. But, I'd think that an intellectually superior being who can comprehend time and space, as well as travel the universe, and has lived for 2000 years is probably going to be at an entirely different level than a human.

If we were talking about a human just living longer, I could see your point about reaching a plateau. In fact, I'd argue that we may well plateau in a regular human life span.

But, the Doctor isn't human and hasn't just lived extra decades longer, but for centuries longer.

Mr Awe

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Umm, I don't recall the adverts implying Papa & Nicole were anything other than father and daughter.

It wasn't an incest joke, the joke was they were both having secret love affairs.

I don't recall the line being "Who's your daddy?" It has been a while since I saw the ads though.

 

[Sci]

Sci, perhaps. But, I'd think that an intellectually superior being who can comprehend time and space, as well as travel the universe, and has lived for 2000 years is probably going to be at an entirely different level than a human.

If we were talking about a human just living longer, I could see your point about reaching a plateau. In fact, I'd argue that we may well plateau in a regular human life span.

But, the Doctor isn't human and hasn't just lived extra decades longer, but for centuries longer.

Mr Awe

I suppose this has to do with how we perceive the Doctor: I concede that he is intellectually superior in the sense that he is obviously capable of processing and retaining abstract information on a much higher level than a Human (speaking five billion languages, etc.) and of perceiving the nature of time on a higher level than a Human. And yet I also view him as being mostly no more mature emotionally than a typical Human -- and sometimes as being far less emotionally mature than a Human. He's addicted to the adoration of young women; he was (until he stayed for Christmas) terrified of making a commitment to stay for anyone. Rose was damn near the only person he'd ever seriously considered being with for her entire lifespan, and in the end, he even foisted her off on his half-Human clone.

That's why I think my comparison to older Humans is valid. An older person may have a great deal of knowledge from a lifetime of experience, but there's a point where emotional development plateaus. And I definitely think that's true of the Doctor -- and that sometimes, his levels of emotional maturity vary from regeneration to regeneration. I never really perceived him as truly emotionally mature until he was 2,000 years old and about to die on Trenzalore (and it's even odds whether or not he retains that maturity in his now-younger body).

 

[Mr Awe]

^ Those are all creations of the new series. Go back to the classic series and it wasn't always that way!

But, they're good points. The Doctor isn't always mature in the way that we define it.

Again, I'm sure it comes back to the fact that it's a TV show intended for humans so it's written with humans in mind! He's obviously easier to relate to as he's been portrayed lately.

Although, that apparently changes and becomes an issue with Capaldi's Doctor. I'm looking forward to seeing how that works out!

Mr Awe

 

[Doctorwhovian]

Maybe Capaldi's Doctor will eventually have a romantic interest who isn't a companion or River. Or maybe even a middle aged companion. We've had one elderly companion before (Wilf) and one in the audios (Evelyn), although neither were romantic interests. There's also that middle-aged lady from the Aztecs who got sort of engaged to the First Doctor, although that was just a one time thing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

^ Agreed on all points. Surely a variety of types of relationships is a good thing and adds to the show. And, the power/intelligence differential between a 2000 year old man and a 20 something year old women is so great that it does make it a bit creepy. It's nearly a 100X age difference!

I really like the sound of the new direction. I enjoyed the old nuWho very much but think we need a change after Tennant/Smith.

Mr Awe

Rory was 2000 years older than Amy.

Yes, I suppose technically she was also 2000 years old, but she was sleeping in stasis for 2000 years gaining zero life experience while Rory watched over her.

 

[davejames]

The only concern I have, is if the Doctor is now so much more fierce, cold and inaccessible than before, won't audiences start to wonder after awhile why Clara is still bothering to even travel with him?

She's never been quite as intoxicated by the thought of alien worlds and time travel as previous companions have been, and she's not stuck with him for one long journey like most companions.

It was one thing to have a mean and grumpy Doctor back when the companions had no choice but to put up with him, but today I think it might be a bit harder to buy a situation like that.

 

[Nightowl1701]

We've seen what happened to Ten and Eleven when they were left by themselves for too long. If you were Clara, would you want to risk letting this new, strange, potentially unstable Doctor go swanning about the universe all by himself?

Spoiler: As Twelve will one day put it...

"She's my carer. She cares so I don't have to."

 

[Sindatur]

Maybe Capaldi's Doctor will eventually have a romantic interest who isn't a companion or River. Or maybe even a middle aged companion. We've had one elderly companion before (Wilf) and one in the audios (Evelyn), although neither were romantic interests. There's also that middle-aged lady from the Aztecs who got sort of engaged to the First Doctor, although that was just a one time thing.

I believe I've heard her health is suffering, but, I would love to see Evelyn (Or even Maggie as another character) in NuWho, especially alongside the not so young Whippersnapper Capaldi

 

[Candlelight]

I want to see what he's like when he's in a real, honest-to-God, she-lives-with-him-on-a-permanent basis relationship.

The only concern I have, is if the Doctor is now so much more fierce, cold and inaccessible than before, won't audiences start to wonder after awhile why Clara is still bothering to even travel with him?

She's never been quite as intoxicated by the thought of alien worlds and time travel as previous companions have been, and she's not stuck with him for one long journey like most companions.

It was one thing to have a mean and grumpy Doctor back when the companions had no choice but to put up with him, but today I think it might be a bit harder to buy a situation like that.

Exhibit A and B. Clara doesn't stay with the Doctor long term anymore. He seems to pick her up and they go on an adventure and then he drops her home in time for tea. I would love for a companion to start her time on the show with her entire family and friends getting killed so she has no reason to return home at the end of every episode. It just slows down the narrative and restricts your storytelling.

 

[kirk55555]

I'm ok with the idea of a companion wanting to be with the Doctor, but even as someone who loves NuWho, I have to say its been done for death. When it comes to The Doctor being interested in the companion, 10/Rose wasn't horrible and I did like 11/River, but generally I think its a bad idea. I'm hoping we can avoid having anyone pine for the 12th Doctor, it would be nice to spend a few years with just platonic relationships for him.

I'd also like some companions living on the TARDIS full time again, but it looks like we'll have to wait until Clara leaves for that. But, she doesn't need a dead family. Rose didn't and this isn't the 1st or 2nd Doctor. He can return a companion to the second he took them if he wants (generally speaking), so they could travel with him for a long time and no one would know they left. I'm sure that's been the case with some of his old companions, so there is no reason a companion can't live on the TARDIS and not "go missing" on Earth in the meantime.

 

[Sci]

^ Agreed on all points. Surely a variety of types of relationships is a good thing and adds to the show. And, the power/intelligence differential between a 2000 year old man and a 20 something year old women is so great that it does make it a bit creepy. It's nearly a 100X age difference!

I really like the sound of the new direction. I enjoyed the old nuWho very much but think we need a change after Tennant/Smith.

Mr Awe

Rory was 2000 years older than Amy.

Yes, I suppose technically she was also 2000 years old, but she was sleeping in stasis for 2000 years gaining zero life experience while Rory watched over her.

Well, sort-of. Rory says in "Day of the Moon" that he can remember those 2,000 years, but that it's in a sort of (I'm paraphrasing) "side-corner" of his mind, like a door he has to go through to remember it. It's not part of his "main" memory, so to speak--meaning, it's not part of his normal mental construct, since it's the assimilated memory of himself from an alternate timeline, not the timeline he actually lived.

The only concern I have, is if the Doctor is now so much more fierce, cold and inaccessible than before, won't audiences start to wonder after awhile why Clara is still bothering to even travel with him?

I mean, I think it's an exaggeration to say he's "so much more fierce, cold, and inaccessible than before." A broad-strokes description doesn't really tell us much substantive about the character yet. Let's wait for Series Eight to premiere, eh?

She's never been quite as intoxicated by the thought of alien worlds and time travel as previous companions have been, and she's not stuck with him for one long journey like most companions.

True. She says it herself under the influence of the Truth Field on Trenzalore in "The Time of the Doctor" -- she travels with the Doctor because she fancies him. Which will definitely make the new boundaries of their relationship post-regeneration something that calls into question just why she travels with him and what she gets out of it.

I want to see what he's like when he's in a real, honest-to-God, she-lives-with-him-on-a-permanent basis relationship.

The only concern I have, is if the Doctor is now so much more fierce, cold and inaccessible than before, won't audiences start to wonder after awhile why Clara is still bothering to even travel with him?

She's never been quite as intoxicated by the thought of alien worlds and time travel as previous companions have been, and she's not stuck with him for one long journey like most companions.

It was one thing to have a mean and grumpy Doctor back when the companions had no choice but to put up with him, but today I think it might be a bit harder to buy a situation like that.

Exhibit A and B. Clara doesn't stay with the Doctor long term anymore. He seems to pick her up and they go on an adventure and then he drops her home in time for tea.

Not "anymore." She has never lived with the Doctor long-term. Throughout Series Seven, she has always insisted on going back home and then having him come pick her up next Wednesday (relative to whatever day she was returning to).

In other words: Clara, unlike Rose, makes her boyfriends date her for a while before she moves in with them.

I would love for a companion to start her time on the show with her entire family and friends getting killed so she has no reason to return home at the end of every episode. It just slows down the narrative and restricts your storytelling.

Don't agree at all. I think it makes the companions far more interesting characters if they actually have lives of their own that don't revolve all around the Doctor. Amy in Series Five is the closest nuWho has ever had to what you're talking about, and it wasn't until her family was restored and she and Rory married -- until, in other words, she began to have an emotional life that didn't revolve solely around the Doctor -- that she became an interesting character rather than a cardboard cutout.

I'd also like some companions living on the TARDIS full time again, but it looks like we'll have to wait until Clara leaves for that. But, she doesn't need a dead family. Rose didn't and this isn't the 1st or 2nd Doctor. He can return a companion to the second he took them if he wants (generally speaking), so they could travel with him for a long time and no one would know they left. I'm sure that's been the case with some of his old companions, so there is no reason a companion can't live on the TARDIS and not "go missing" on Earth in the meantime.

To a point. But I think most companions would want to match, to some extent, their subjective temporal experiences on the TARDIS to their objective temporal absences from their home eras. Otherwise, they'd end up aging prematurely relative to their home era.

 

[DWF]

If the Doctor's companions have acceptable lives without him then they don't need to travel with him in the first place. Many of the companions came onboard by accident and decided to stay. Still Doctor Who is considered a kids show and kids really have little desire to see male/female relationship on their TV shows and oc course the companions are us, the audience. Plus the Doctor should keep some semblence of mystery about him and putting him a relationship takes something away from him.

 

[Sci]

If the Doctor's companions have acceptable lives without him then they don't need to travel with him in the first place.

Well, differing ranges of "acceptable." Giving them an emotional life that doesn't revolve around the Doctor doesn't preclude also giving them something to want to escape or transcend -- Rose wanting to escape working-class poverty in Series One; Donna wanting to escape her life as a perpetual disappointment to her mother and also-ran for shallow men in Series Four.

Many of the companions came onboard by accident and decided to stay.

DW TOS has many virtues. But good writing and depth for its companions was not among them. NuWho should not emulate DW TOS in this respect.

Still Doctor Who is considered a kids show and kids really have little desire to see male/female relationship on their TV shows

Which must be why kids don't watch nuWho at all, right?

I agree that kids don't really want to see overt sexuality, but I think it's a mistake to think that they don't respond to a well-written, appropriately-depicted love story. David Tennant, in the episode of Doctor Who Confidential he directed, interviewed someone who pointed out that the part of the episode "Doomsday" that kids were most upset by was not the Cybermen or the Daleks--but was Rose and the Doctor being separated.

and oc course the companions are us, the audience.

No. A companion should not be such a blank slate that the audience can just project themselves onto them; that's called "bad writing."

Plus the Doctor should keep some semblence of mystery about him and putting him a relationship takes something away from him.

I don't agree--I think that a well-written Doctor-in-a-relationship scenario could heighten the mystery of the Doctor. After all--what kind of relationship is it if the man still won't tell her his name?

 

[DWF]

If the Doctor's companions have acceptable lives without him then they don't need to travel with him in the first place.

Well, differing ranges of "acceptable." Giving them an emotional life that doesn't revolve around the Doctor doesn't preclude also giving them something to want to escape or transcend -- Rose wanting to escape working-class poverty in Series One; Donna wanting to escape her life as a perpetual disappointment to her mother and also-ran for shallow men in Series Four.

Many of the companions came onboard by accident and decided to stay.

DW TOS has many virtues. But good writing and depth for its companions was not among them. NuWho should not emulate DW TOS in this respect.



Which must be why kids don't watch nuWho at all, right?

I agree that kids don't really want to see overt sexuality, but I think it's a mistake to think that they don't respond to a well-written, appropriately-depicted love story. David Tennant, in the episode of Doctor Who Confidential he directed, interviewed someone who pointed out that the part of the episode "Doomsday" that kids were most upset by was not the Cybermen or the Daleks--but was Rose and the Doctor being separated.

and oc course the companions are us, the audience.

No. A companion should not be such a blank slate that the audience can just project themselves onto them; that's called "bad writing."

Plus the Doctor should keep some semblence of mystery about him and putting him a relationship takes something away from him.

I don't agree--I think that a well-written Doctor-in-a-relationship scenario could heighten the mystery of the Doctor. After all--what kind of relationship is it if the man still won't tell her his name?

You can diagree all you want but you miss the point of the show, it's about an alien travelling though time and space with a companion or two, it's not about the personal lives of the Doctor or his companions. The more they try to to that the more it annoys and alienates the audience.

The Doctor is in a way immortal and the companions aren't no matter how atteched he getes to them he does have to leave them or they leave him.

 

[Sci]

You can diagree all you want but you miss the point of the show, it's about an alien travelling though time and space with a companion or two, it's not about the personal lives of the Doctor or his companions.

NuWho has been about both the Doctor and his companions travelling through time and space, and about their private lives, ever since "Rose" opened in 2005 with a bunch of scenes to establish her home life and boyfriend situation and then turned Jackie and Mickey into important recurring characters.

The more they try to to that the more it annoys and alienates the audience.

They've been doing it 9 years so far. If you look at the ratings for Series Seven and average them out, it had an average audience of 7.615 million and an average audience appreciation index of 86.07. The averages for Series One were 6.833 million and 82.77.

I don't think the audience is alienated.

(ETA: This is to say nothing of the fact that, with nuWho now 9 years old, every single eight-year-old in Great Britain has literally grown up with a Doctor Who that was in part about the companions' domestic lives. This is the Doctor Who they have always known; to them, episodes like "Rose" are absolutely ancient. This is just How It's Always Been for them. And they're still tuning in, in droves. End Edit.)

The Doctor is in a way immortal and the companions aren't no matter how atteched he getes to them he does have to leave them or they leave him.

Or he could stay with them until they die. Might be an interesting change of pace.

 

[RoJoHen]

Or he could stay with them until they die. Might be an interesting change of pace.

That could actually be an interesting season. Have a companion that ages from beginning to end, every episode several years older than the previous, until he/she finally dies of old age in the finale.