That's fair, but like I said, I think you have the choice of looking at it in a more harmonizing perspective. Both timelines can exist - JJ and co. have basically come out and said that. There's nothing stopping you from looking at it the same way.
There is no prime timeline anymore
- Thread starter El Chupacabra
- Start date
That's fair, but like I said, I think you have the choice of looking at it in a more harmonizing perspective. Both timelines can exist - JJ and co. have basically come out and said that. There's nothing stopping you from looking at it the same way.
Exactly. Many people go through life like this. How sad for them.
Why do you have to patronise me because I want to still follow a universe I have followed for 30 years? I know why the reboot has happened and why whe have a new universe. I am not an idiot. I know it all comes down to how much money the suits in the studios can make. But you see I have spent hard earned cash over the years on this property because of the rich universe it had. If that is taken away from me and I will never see it again that I am said as that means that the property I was a fan of is no longer there in the form that I liked it in.
Will you explain to me why I am required to cum in my pants over the new movie instead of people entitled to my opinion and dislike over a premise?
Yeah the more I think about it the more I feel they really dropped the ball on this. Even though many around here insist that there are different timelines with each change and we have watched 4 different TNG crews during that shows run and a couple different Voyagers doesnt set well with me. I dont think thats what the writers intended. I think once things are set right the timeline flows normally again. NOW maybe this blackhole phenomenon created a divergent timeline. Who knows. Maybe the old Spock isnt even the SPock from the main Trek timeline.
This movie just wasnt thought out properly and Im still amazed that so many liked it given the fact that so many here who actually liked it nitpicked ENTERPRISE to death when that show tried really hard to remain within continuity.
This movie just wasnt thought out properly and Im still amazed that so many liked it given the fact that so many here who actually liked it nitpicked ENTERPRISE to death when that show tried really hard to remain within continuity.
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Well that's exactly what I have been trying to do, but it doesn't change the fact that previous Trek has told me something different.
You go on believing whatever you like, but it was made clear by the writers both in statements before the movie came out, and in actual dialogue in the film that this was the model of time-travel that they were using. Anything else and you are ignoring their intent and substituting your own.
You can still do that. Read the frakking novels. It's not like they're gonna get contradicted by anything on screen now.
Also, the novels are great (well, most of them anyway).
ST-One
Vice Admiral
That's indeed correct.
Do you remember how the DS9 crew went back to the 21st century and returned to a changed 24th (Gabriel Bell)?
Is that so surprising?
The Kelvin timeline is the one that was started in 'First Contact' and lead to 'Enterprise'.
You are right, it's not the universe we have first seen in 'The Man Trap'
Firstly, the novels, with respect, do not compare to seeing Trek on screen and it is the Trek in screen that I am a fan of. I like the visual elements of it and the living, breathing versions of the characters too much for me to get that out of a book - especially when I am frequently reminded that the novels aren't canon. But then, maybe I should treat the novels and being in a different timeline!
And secondly, do you know how much of a fanboy you sound using the word "frak"? Jesus, if you want to say fuck then just say it!!
Sorry, but I've being seeing that a lot on message boards recently and its as if a load of fanboys suddenly got together and decided it was cool to use frak in real life. It's like those nerds who put down that they are Jedis on concensus forms. Nothing personal.Maybe the Guardian was special in that it preserved a single reality. Maybe time travel always resulted in a separate reality forking off at the time of arrival.
Or maybe it was the red-mater formed singularity was the difference that caused the reality jump. and just a slingshot around the gravity well tossed them back in time.
-frank
Or maybe it was the red-mater formed singularity was the difference that caused the reality jump. and just a slingshot around the gravity well tossed them back in time.
-frank
You were really expecting more of the old timeline after the failures of DS9, VOY, INS, NEM and ENT to capture the attention of the old TOS and TNG fans and to attract new young fans?
I don't believe in the multiverse theory. One universe, one time line. If it should ever get altered, it's altered. Most likely time travel cannot be done, or we'd see people from the future popping up every once in a while (unless our "times" are not very significant).
Who knows what could have been done. I don't accept that notion that this movie in some way establishes that it was impossible for a new, huge budget movie to be made within the existing universe. Given good enough talent at the helm I bet it could have.
For the last time, Star Trek has never really had any rules on changing the timeline. Look at the TNG episode with all the Enterprise-Ds from different realities - why not one from the new timeline? Why not have it like the mirror universe, albeit slightly harder to get to. Spock got there by accident, and the only way he could possibly get back is by creating a black hole which could get him back, or could kill him. His service was best served in the new timeline.
Again:
Technically it's actually a branching of the timeline that *follows on* from the previous timeline and turns back on itself:
The old continuity still happened- then this happened *after* it.
It's like...
>--ENT--->---60s TOS--->---TNG--->---DS9--->--VOY-->---\--->24th century folks except Spock--->--->
*************************************************\
*************************************************/
*/----<-----<----<--Spock & Nero---<-----<----<-----<-----/
/
\
*\---->---Abrams-TOS--->
Which, coincidentally, is also the way modern science and quantum theory believes messing around with time works.
Technically it's actually a branching of the timeline that *follows on* from the previous timeline and turns back on itself:
The old continuity still happened- then this happened *after* it.
It's like...
>--ENT--->---60s TOS--->---TNG--->---DS9--->--VOY-->---\--->24th century folks except Spock--->--->
*************************************************\
*************************************************/
*/----<-----<----<--Spock & Nero---<-----<----<-----<-----/
/
\
*\---->---Abrams-TOS--->
Which, coincidentally, is also the way modern science and quantum theory believes messing around with time works.
^^Very well put, that's exactly how i see it, Old Spock repaired the timeline and set it back on TOS route by making sure that Kirk got the Enterprise.
I dont know whether you have noticed but gravity is also a theory, as is heliocentrism. Many worlds theory happens to be a widely accepted theory at the moment.
You manage to use your double think to explain away all the contradictions in the original trek universe, so quite how you can't suspend your disbelief to accept that this is an alternate universe is beyond me.
El Chupacabra, you are 100 percent wrong here.
The movie itself clearly addresses this question. AFTER Nero went into the past through the black hole, the original timeline still existed. Ambassador Spock was still in it. We saw it on the screen.
The black hole acted as a doorway between the two timelines, allowing Nero and Spock both to go through at different times. Both timelines were ACTUALLY SHOWN TO EXIST after Nero went through, but before Spock went through.
This isn't a philosophical debate where everyone's entitled to their opinion. The original timeline DID STILL EXIST after Nero went through the black hole. It was shown on the movie screen. You saw it yourself. That is a fact.
No, in "The City on the Edge of Forever," Kirk and the landing party were instantly pulled into the new future created by McCoy due to their proximity to the Guardian of Forever. This is the same phenomenon that happened in "Star Trek: First Contact," when the Enterprise-E was instantly pulled into the new future with an assimilated Earth, created by the Borg in the past, before Picard (like Kirk and Spock in "City") decided to follow them into the past and undo the changes.
You are making the mistake of assuming that there is only one method of time travel, with only one set of rules in "Star Trek," and trying to use what happened in one episode to explain what is happening in another.
In fact, there have been at least Five Distinct Categories of Time Paradoxes in "Star Trek." "The City on the Edge of Forever" and "Star Trek: First Contact" may be lumped into the same category, but "Star Trek XI" clearly cannot be. It is definitely in the divergent-timeline category, like Voyager's "Endgame" or "Star Trek Generations."
You keep using the word "fact," when what you mean to say is "my personal, unproven hypothesis."
The "facts" are what we actually saw in the movie, NOT what you personally believe in your own imagination.
Fact: After Nero went into the past and attacked the U.S.S. Kelvin, creating the new timeline with his arrival, Spock was still in his ship in the original timeline, and had not yet entered the black hole. Scenes of the original timeline still existing were shown AFTER Nero went into the past but BEFORE Spock went into the past. Obviously, Nero's time travel did not erase the original timeline, or else Ambassador Spock would not have existed to follow him back.
What if somehow Spock had been able to avoid entering the black hole? He would have seen Nero enter, and never heard from him again. Spock's original timeline was still there, whether he followed Nero back or not.
Also, since Spock and Nero entered the black hole at different times, yet ended up in the same timeline, it would appear that the black hole is an ongoing gateway between the two timelines, so that at a later time, another ship (e.g., the Enterprise-E or the Titan) could enter the black hole after Spock and Nero, and appear at some later time in the new timeline.
It is a foolish debate whether the original timeline still existed after Nero went into the past, since both Spock and everyone watching the movie saw the original timeline still existing AFTER Nero entered the black hole.
If Spock was still around to follow Nero back, so was Picard and Riker and Janeway and everyone else in the Universe. So, no, the original timeline did NOT disappear. It was still there AFTER Nero went back in time. We all saw it. So did Spock. There are two timelines, connected by one black hole. Those are the facts, as shown in the film. (It doesn't matter what the producers or fans think.)
That some people forget that is frightening.
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