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There is no north or south in space!

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Duane

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A friend recently suggested to me that Trek would be more believable if we did not always see every space ship as if it where an airplane in flight, or like a car on a road.

He suggested that when two ships meet in space, both should approach each other at very odd angles.

That would be a bit creepy, and certainly less interesting visual-wise, but I think he has a point.

Appreciate any comments.
 
roger1999 said:
A friend recently suggested to me that Trek would be more believable if we did not always see every space ship as if it where an airplane in flight, or like a car on a road.

He suggested that when two ships meet in space, both should approach each other at very odd angles.

That would be a bit creepy, and certainly less interesting visual-wise, but I think he has a point.

Appreciate any comments.

We could always assume there's an "accepted" "galactic plane" at which ships try and to adhere to for the most effective meeting. Or that ships orient themselves to one another as they approach.

Or that it's a tv-show and certain things look better on screen. But I don't want to get meta.

;)
 
And now then, eager young space cadet, here is the course we shall pursue to find Planet X. Starting from where we are, we go 33,600 turbo mile due up. Then west in an astro-arc deviation to here, then following the great circle seven radiolubes south by downeast, by astro-astrolabe to here, here, then here, then to here, and here, by thirteen point strato-cumulus bearing four million light-years, and thus to our destination. Now do you know how to reach Planet X?
 
This issue comes up from time to time. So let's go over some things.

In the old days when ships were physical models being filmed it was simply easier to show them flying on the same plane. Sure it may not be realistic, but it was easier.

These days, it's simply done because TPTB feel it would be too confusing otherwise.
 
^^Firefly actually did no sound in space. I actually thought it worked out well. Of course, Firefly never did space battles.
 
Navaros said:
I think they should tackle the more pressing: "there is no sound in space" issue first before moving on to the slightly less pressing issue of "there is no north or south in space".

Ha!

I love that one and like the above poster said, Firefly actually adressed that. They also had a better sound for their energy weapons besides "choo" "choo" "pew".

But, there is a galactic north and south. Read here.. Another poster a few post above made a good point that without trying to organize our system, navigation would just be a bitch.
 
Firefly also had ships coming in at odd angles at times. But seeing as they were in one solar system and planets were likely to be orbiting on a fairly even plane it is understandable that most ships would be oriented likewise.
 
Whoever said we saw Kingon ships right-side up? For all we know, they're flipped.

Anyway, there is such a thing as the ecilptic -- of solar systems and even of the galaxy. So yes, there are two general axes. You can call them up and down, east and west, or longitude and latitude, or 178 mark 895 or whatever.
 
Temis the Vorta said:
But seeing as they were in one solar system

Hundreds of habitable planets in one solar system. Ironically, that solution to one problem raises a much bigger one... ;)

That always bothered me too. I thought during the show it was a small region of space with a good cluster of stars and doezens of planets.

Then the movie has them in one solar system with enough distance and planets to have a "core" and a "fringe". Not likely but, the movie still rocked.
 
In solar or galactic charts, we do use a north and south. There are actually three of those in my LCARS system. The solar-system charts are animated, showing the planets moving through their orbits, and therefore really need that north/south reference.

But when a starship is moving within a solar system, it might be customary to usually have it oriented parallel to the system plane but have the top of the ship facing the galactic core when traveling between stars.
 
Every time this comes up, it sounds like a straw man. Okay, an accidental straw man, but still.

When do we see ships oriented in a "common plane"? Only when they are within visual range of each other, and deliberately maneuvering in acknowledgement of the other side. Why would they not orient themselves according to some spatial rules of courtesy when they meet?

They could fly whichever way when they are distant from each other. But when contact between friendlies is made, it would be customary to roll the ships to the same orientation out of sheer politeness (indeed, we see the Reliant do a little courtesy roll when she first meets the Enterprise - although the maneuver actually makes her look a bit menacing).

Also, when numerous friendlies operate together, they no doubt assume a formation of some sort. We have seen formations of dozens of ships, and later hundreds or thousands. In formations that large, it wouldn't make much sense to have a complex geometry; better just to place every ship the same way up and the nose pointing in the same direction, so that commands like "Everybody hard to starboard!" are unambiguous at the initial stages of the battle.

When the battle degrades into a furball, ships on one side may try to maintain an (arbitrary) joint "down" to retain some semblance of situational awareness, even when they roll and climb and dive a lot. And the enemy might be obliged to do likewise in order to conduct the battle efficiently.

Similarly, when two opposing ships meet, they might choose matching orientations either out of (false?) courtesy, or then simply to bring their weapons to bear in an optimal manner. Shipbuilders would realize that the most likely starting point for a battle is with the ships trundling towards each other nose first, and would install the main guns and armor accordingly; captains would then deliberately seek nose-first confrontations, and would thus already be making "arbitrary" choices of geometry.

Ultimately, such diverse rationales would reinforce each other, until it was general naval tradition to orient ships the same way - even when it makes no immediate practical sense, it's something that everybody can afford to do.

And ultimately, it doesn't need to make any practical sense even in closer analysis. It would be a bit like saluting shots. It is counterintuitive that firing a bunch of guns would be a sign of peaceful intent. But it has become fairly universal, remaining in use even when ships no longer depend on slowly reloadable cannon that become unthreatening after firing a saluting shot - indeed, even when ships no longer carry any cannon except the saluting one.

Timo Saloniemi
 
If two ships meet by accident, they shouldn't necessarily be in the same line as the others.

However, if two ships are meeting on purpose, you would think that they would be on the same axis by default, simply because they are both flying to the same place, and since the quickest way to get somewhere is a straight line, they would inevitably be on the same path.
 
Star Trek vessels seem to have most weapons pointed forwards and give the lowest profile head on, so it makes sense of sorts in terms of combat to have everyone on the same plane.
 
If two ships meet by accident, they shouldn't necessarily be in the same line as the others.

I think this cuts to the heart of the issue. If two ships meet in space, coming so close to each other that they fit in the same camera shot, it cannot be by "accident". Ships in space would only meet each other if aware of the presence of the other in advance.

And if they are aware of the presence of the other, they probably are aware of her orientation as well, and will adjust theirs to match (or wait for the opponent to do the adjusting if they feel like being obnoxious).

The one exception to this would be if both parties are cloaked and neither can verify the orientation of the other. But if that happened, we the audience couldn't tell the orientation, either...

Timo Saloniemi
 
From our own experience of two vessels meeting in space, actual alignment usually only takes place a few minutes before docking. Aside from that, they are pointed either towards their energy source or their work, for a static station, or whatever orientation they switched the thrust off, for an atmospheric vessel.
 
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