"There are four lights"

[Nebusj]

KDoug said:

broberfett said:
Torture does work. You can get someone to confess to anything even if they didn't do it, but you can also get them to give up stuff they know.

Maybe so, but how can anyone be sure of the difference?

Well, that's obvious. If the torture is being done by a good guy against a bad guy, then the information derived will be true and hugely reliable. (If the tortured bad guy gives up information that's not reliable that just shows what a perfetly awful bad guy he is that he won't even be tortured correctly.) Whereas if the torture is being done by a bad guy against a good guy, then the information derived will be cleverly planned misdirection.

 

[KDoug]

Nebusj said:
Well, that's obvious. If the torture is being done by a good guy against a bad guy, then the information derived will be true and hugely reliable. (If the tortured bad guy gives up information that's not reliable that just shows what a perfetly awful bad guy he is that he won't even be tortured correctly.) Whereas if the torture is being done by a bad guy against a good guy, then the information derived will be cleverly planned misdirection.

Ooooohhh!!! NOW it makes sense!

 

[Salinga]

What, if you say before the torturing begins: "Whatever I will tell you while you torture me: I will be lying to you - even if I explicitly say, I am not lying, it will be a lie."

 

[HRHTheKING]

"Chain Of Command" would have been even better if in the final scene, as soon as Picard was alone with Troi, he broke down in tears and started rocking back and forth.

 

[K-Star]

GalaxyX said:

^Yup... and y'all have NO IDEA how bad I wanted to bring up this episode when we were discussing 1984 in English class...

Oh buddy if it was me I would have jumped on that like a rabid dog on a nice juicy bone. If people thought I was a geek, they can take it up with me anyway they want

Besides, TNG has actually become sort of "cool" and a household name now.

Personally I wanted to see Worf and Data grab that Cardassian and repeatedly punch the fucker in the throat and gut, and kick him constantly in the groin and the shin, that would have made it a gee wiz cool satisfying ending for me.

It's not that I was afraid of being labeled as a geek, it's that I figured NO ONE in the class would know what I was talking about, which would've resulted in a very awkward moment after I was done speaking.

 

[ThankQ]

LancasterTrek said:
I never cared much for this episode. I liked the premise that the Cardassians are developing a bad weapon, and the small team of Picard, Crusher and Worf going in to stop it. But the whole torture thing was hard to watch, and not enjoyable at all. I watch TNG for a break from reality, not to watch torture. I didn't like it.

Methinks you're a fanboy who doesn't appreciate the story behind the flashing and the beeping.

Without question, this episode was crowning jewel in the history of Trek.

 

[archeryguy1701]

HRHTheKING said:
"Chain Of Command" would have been even better if in the final scene, as soon as Picard was alone with Troi, he broke down in tears and started rocking back and forth.

I get the impression you're not much of a Picard fan, are you?

I liked the episode. I was somewhat fascinated by the scene where Picard turned the whole thing around and started taunting Madred for being the weak, homeless chld in the past.

 

[Nemesis]

Kegek said:
^
Patrick Stewart was naked for one of his scenes. I don't believe anything inappropriate made its way into the episode, though.

What is inappropriate about a naked human being? We're all born that way, is that inappropiate? It's the adults who act strange to naked bodies, in stead off children, children don't care.

But back on topic, about the four lights. I don't understand, why he just said.. there are five lights. Then you don't have the nasty situation he got in. Play that you're broken..But in every trek episode there's something to say about.. Just enjoying

 

[Kegek]

^
Inappropriate for a PG rated production. Which is also why Jellico didn't swear his head off.

 

[Red Ranger]

Nemesis said:

Kegek said:
^
Patrick Stewart was naked for one of his scenes. I don't believe anything inappropriate made its way into the episode, though.

What is inappropriate about a naked human being? We're all born that way, is that inappropiate? It's the adults who act strange to naked bodies, in stead off children, children don't care.

But back on topic, about the four lights. I don't understand, why he just said.. there are five lights. Then you don't have the nasty situation he got in. Play that you're broken..But in every trek episode there's something to say about.. Just enjoying

Nemesis,

Regarding your last comment, it probably would have been easier for Picard to just give in to Madred's exhortations and agree with him. But let's remember, he's supposed to be a stubborn Starfleet officer, someone who doesn't take the easy way out.

It was a clash of wills between the two of them, and Picard was damned if he would give Madred the satisfaction. But as indicated in the final scene with Troi, not only was he about to give in, he was actually trying to see the five lights Madred wanted him to see. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's strikingly similar to the scene in 1984 where Winston Smith tells his interrogator he's trying to see five lights, that he wants to see them but can't.

Red Ranger

 

[GalaxyX]

I hated the episode because there was no justice at the end of it, just a weak resistance.

 

[HRHTheKING]

What kind of "justice" did you want?

 

[GalaxyX]

^^^^ The cardassian get the shit kicked out of him by someone. Data and Worf tag teaming the asshole would have been nice, but hell, even Riker should have stepped in there and given the bastard a swift kick in the balls.

 

[HRHTheKING]

Hmmm.

Somehow, I don't think that would have fit into the story.

 

[CaptainStoner]

A great episode and pertinent to any Muslim pizza shop owner who's going through the same sort of thing today.
When we consider also that Picard was protecting Crusher as I recall, I don't see it as hollow. If you torture, drug, and malnourish someone for days on end, the brain is affected. The Cardassian succeeded in messing with his mind, but could not touch his will, and that's what makes it a true victory.

 

[SiorX]

CaptainStoner said: When we consider also that Picard was protecting Crusher as I recall, I don't see it as hollow.

I always thought that part was incredibly sweet. Er... as sweet as an episode filled with gruesome torture and humiliation can be. Even scraped right down to the bone Picard's irrepresibly gallant.

If you torture, drug, and malnourish someone for days on end, the brain is affected. The Cardassian succeeded in messing with his mind, but could not touch his will, and that's what makes it a true victory.

I concur. I've always felt CoC is the very best of Picard episodes because his victory is not complete or easy. He genuinely suffers and comes very close to losing at the hands of Madred.

 

[LancasterTrek]

ThankQ said:

LancasterTrek said:
I never cared much for this episode. I liked the premise that the Cardassians are developing a bad weapon, and the small team of Picard, Crusher and Worf going in to stop it. But the whole torture thing was hard to watch, and not enjoyable at all. I watch TNG for a break from reality, not to watch torture. I didn't like it.

Methinks you're a fanboy who doesn't appreciate the story behind the flashing and the beeping.

Without question, this episode was crowning jewel in the history of Trek.

Well, I've been a fan of TNG since the 3rd season was originally airing in 1989. I own all seven seasons on DVD. I own most of the movies, and if you describe a scene in any episode besides Season 1, I can identify the episode.

I'm not a casual fan of this show, nor am I a johnny-come-lately who just likes gadgets. I thought TNG had some brilliant moments that built the backstory of the characters. I just don't enjoy watching a torture episode.

There's no need to take a personal potshot at someone because they have a different opinion about an episode.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Not that his opinion is everything, but I'll bet big Gene himself had a similar take on this episode as you, Lancaster.
And never is a more futile sentence uttered, than one which proclaims, without question, "this episode was the crowning jewel in the history of Trek."

 

[GalaxyX]

I'm not a casual fan of this show, nor am I a johnny-come-lately who just likes gadgets. I thought TNG had some brilliant moments that built the backstory of the characters. I just don't enjoy watching a torture episode.

As I've mentioned several times above, I don't really mind the episode, but the ending leaves me wanting. The Cardassian should have been severely punished for his ways, which he wasn't, he just didn't get the "victory" over not breaking Picard. Big deal, next day he's on his merry way.

I wanted him to get the stuffing kicked out of him BADLY. Kirk would have done it

 

[Red Ranger]

GalaxyX said:

I'm not a casual fan of this show, nor am I a johnny-come-lately who just likes gadgets. I thought TNG had some brilliant moments that built the backstory of the characters. I just don't enjoy watching a torture episode.

As I've mentioned several times above, I don't really mind the episode, but the ending leaves me wanting. The Cardassian should have been severely punished for his ways, which he wasn't, he just didn't get the "victory" over not breaking Picard. Big deal, next day he's on his merry way.

I wanted him to get the stuffing kicked out of him BADLY. Kirk would have done it

GalaxyX,

I do think you're missing the point of the ep. Sure, Picard's victory is somewhat hollow, but it is one nonetheless. Also, as far as we know, no one has ever "defeated" Madred the same way -- by not only escaping his evil clutches, but calling him a weak and helpless six-year-old boy in his own domain.

However, the fact that you wanted Madred to be punished more severely means the ep had an impact on you. It's probably the feeling Picard had when he was liberated. He probably would have loved to tear Madred apart with his bare hands.

As for the whole "What Would Kirk Do," I recall at least one ep where he was tortured and didn't exactly kick the stuffing out of his tormentor: "Dagger of the Mind." He does get the drop on Dr. Adams with a swift punch when the Enterprise knocks out the power to the penal colony and temporarily deactivates the neural neutralizer. And for those who've seen that ep, we know what happened to Dr. Adams when the device got turned back on and he was alone with that infernal machine.

Red Ranger