"The Zygon Inversion" Grade and Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
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Outside of Peter Calpaldi's speech, I'm deeply surprised at the plaudits this set of episodes has been showered with. I gave it a "Decent" (because Peter prevented this story being a complete write off like "Kill the Moon").
Thinking more on "Bonnie" essentially being placated and kept on after her participation in the mass killing spree of UNIT troopers just doing their jobs (utterly incompetently, but still), Zygon moderates just wanting to blend in the background, and innocent human bystanders in the wrong place (plus kidnappings of perhaps entire city blocks) makes me the most legitimately angry about a NuWho related episode since Torchwood's "Cyberwoman". And while the Doctor may have still been responsible for interstellar megadeaths that cannot be rewritten (if they occurred before the final Dalek storming of Gallifrey) I don't think he should quite compare himself to a vile creature like "Bonnie"! Her Zygon faction were the main instigators and aggressors, with a general justification for the uprising as half baked as the scripting, with less reasons for being provoked than Islamic terrorists, outside of being just another set of rubber alien goons trying to take over the world, causing by far the most death and destruction!! They had more advantages in technology and tactics from the onset, then ended essentially holding most of the cards on Earth! Why would a callous militant bigot like "Bonnie" be suddenly genuinely moved by a speech made by somebody pushed against his will into waging a open war initially made in defence against a militarily, numerically superior foe?! I'm OK in the general outline of UNIT and the Doctor compromising with Zygons to stop a war on Earth escalating to preserve more Zygon and Earthling lives, but not with "Bonne" - with the fresh blood of Jac and that Zygon dude at that tower block dripping from her claws - cleanly walking away and calling a ceasefire in a war that she started in the first place!
Thinking more on "Bonnie" essentially being placated and kept on after her participation in the mass killing spree of UNIT troopers just doing their jobs (utterly incompetently, but still), Zygon moderates just wanting to blend in the background, and innocent human bystanders in the wrong place (plus kidnappings of perhaps entire city blocks) makes me the most legitimately angry about a NuWho related episode since Torchwood's "Cyberwoman". And while the Doctor may have still been responsible for interstellar megadeaths that cannot be rewritten (if they occurred before the final Dalek storming of Gallifrey) I don't think he should quite compare himself to a vile creature like "Bonnie"! Her Zygon faction were the main instigators and aggressors, with a general justification for the uprising as half baked as the scripting, with less reasons for being provoked than Islamic terrorists, outside of being just another set of rubber alien goons trying to take over the world, causing by far the most death and destruction!! They had more advantages in technology and tactics from the onset, then ended essentially holding most of the cards on Earth! Why would a callous militant bigot like "Bonnie" be suddenly genuinely moved by a speech made by somebody pushed against his will into waging a open war initially made in defence against a militarily, numerically superior foe?! I'm OK in the general outline of UNIT and the Doctor compromising with Zygons to stop a war on Earth escalating to preserve more Zygon and Earthling lives, but not with "Bonne" - with the fresh blood of Jac and that Zygon dude at that tower block dripping from her claws - cleanly walking away and calling a ceasefire in a war that she started in the first place!
I didn't see any connection to Islamic terrorists until you guys posted in this thread, but I see a connection with Bonnie being the terrorist leader and then not being punished and supposedly keeping the peace with Yassir Arifat, so there's that. He was never punished and they made him the first leader of the Palestinian state.
Hot steamy sex with the red Dalek...
On a more serious note maybe she had a side deal that did not involve Davros..
Nah that's too convoluted, even for the Moff.
I actually thought it was quite a good idea inline with Moffat's tendency towards convolution! Except for the part of bringing Gallifrey back. It sounds like he doesn't want that.
Mr Awe
I agree that Moffat may not actually bring Gallifrey back but I do have a sneaky suspicion that Gallifrey will play a big role in the finale. The title "heaven sent" just makes me think of Gallifrey. Poetically, we can think of Gallifrey as being like Heaven: a beautiful place that exists on a different plane of existence.
Plus, it's a finale. I fully expect Moffat to go big and reference Gallifrey, the Time War, the Impossible Girl, Daleks, Davros, Missy, Ashildr, the Doctor's big secret for why he ran away, etc...
Only that the Doctor's big secret might turn out meh..
I think there might only be enough room in a new paradigm Dalek for that.
There is no sovereign "Palestinian state". All of the land is under direct or indirect Israeli control.
I've had sometime to thing about it, and I feel this episode just didn't come together. It's like they were to eager to give this episode a happy ending and absolve the Zygons of all consequences. The human drama is also missing I feel. The Zygons have murdered dozens of innocent members of U.N.I.T. and their own race, for no other reason than Bonnie wanting to pick a fight. The episode is such a whitewash/reset of the status quo that the only thing that changed from the start to the end is that there are two Osgoods. Also Kate gets her mind erased, again, for the 15th time. Does that mean the Doctor has settled 15 separate Zygon uprisings since TDPTD?
I think Star Trek handled these types of concepts better.
VOY "In the Flesh": Where Janeway negotiates a peace with Species 8472 AND is smart enough to request he disguise and infilatrion techniques of Species 8472, be apart of the deal. Something Kate and U.N.I.T. should've agreed to before giving asylum to 20 million Zygons.
TOS "A Taste of Armageddon": Kirk negotiates a peace between warring planets, by removing their video game/simulations and gives them "a taste of Armageddon". Something both planets were terrified of.
ENT "Damage": Where the human drama of a victim of a senseless act of violence, meets the architect of the very act. The Trip and Degra scene. The episode is further punctuated when Archer has to step in and play negotiator and balance the tensions of the Xindi and his officers. All so they could put aside their past differences and work toward a peaceful future. ARCHER DID THAT!
ENT "Demons and Terra Prime": The swan song of ENT deals with terrorism, intolerance, fear and hope from a group of humans, who have tepid reservations about the future of their world. Hear the drama of scared human beings, who are willing to use force to achieve their goals, meets resistance. Archer gives a speech about diversity, unity and the unknown future for all of them.
TNG "Chain of Command": When you need a Captain to negotiate a peace between humans and a hostile/expansionist force, call Captain Jellico.
TNG "Vengeance Factor: When you need a Captain to negotiate peace between impeccable enemies, call Captain Picard.
DS9 "Homefront and Paradise Lost": Sisko deals with a military coup on Earth, and the complex notion of safety vs security. Also, you have another group of professionals who develop technologies and techniques to contend with shape shifting aliens. AGAIN, U.N.I.T., why is this so hard for you?
I think Star Trek handled these types of concepts better.
VOY "In the Flesh": Where Janeway negotiates a peace with Species 8472 AND is smart enough to request he disguise and infilatrion techniques of Species 8472, be apart of the deal. Something Kate and U.N.I.T. should've agreed to before giving asylum to 20 million Zygons.
TOS "A Taste of Armageddon": Kirk negotiates a peace between warring planets, by removing their video game/simulations and gives them "a taste of Armageddon". Something both planets were terrified of.
ENT "Damage": Where the human drama of a victim of a senseless act of violence, meets the architect of the very act. The Trip and Degra scene. The episode is further punctuated when Archer has to step in and play negotiator and balance the tensions of the Xindi and his officers. All so they could put aside their past differences and work toward a peaceful future. ARCHER DID THAT!
ENT "Demons and Terra Prime": The swan song of ENT deals with terrorism, intolerance, fear and hope from a group of humans, who have tepid reservations about the future of their world. Hear the drama of scared human beings, who are willing to use force to achieve their goals, meets resistance. Archer gives a speech about diversity, unity and the unknown future for all of them.
TNG "Chain of Command": When you need a Captain to negotiate a peace between humans and a hostile/expansionist force, call Captain Jellico.
TNG "Vengeance Factor: When you need a Captain to negotiate peace between impeccable enemies, call Captain Picard.
DS9 "Homefront and Paradise Lost": Sisko deals with a military coup on Earth, and the complex notion of safety vs security. Also, you have another group of professionals who develop technologies and techniques to contend with shape shifting aliens. AGAIN, U.N.I.T., why is this so hard for you?
1. The Doctor could have been lying about there having been 14 uprisings.
2. The Doctor could have been dealing with these uprisings out of order. Maybe 11 of the uprisings he has stopped were in the future, which would explain why he did so little to help, if this "adventure" is already destined or fixed.
2. The Doctor could have been dealing with these uprisings out of order. Maybe 11 of the uprisings he has stopped were in the future, which would explain why he did so little to help, if this "adventure" is already destined or fixed.
I think that saying Bonnie just wants to pick a fight / is only trying to take over the world just because is inaccurate. We're told that a Zygon child was attacked in Truth or Consequences when people freaked out because it couldn't hold its form, and some (though obviously not all) of the Zygons find the idea they have to suppress their true forms for the rest of their lives and assimilate into human culture unfair on a massive scale-- imagine saying to refugees, "you can live among us, but you must give up YOUR ENTIRE CULTURE FOREVER."
Bonnie's actions are violent, but they are also principled; she is fighting to save her people from what she perceives to be a cultural genocide. And that is what makes her, and this episode, very interesting.
Bonnie's actions are violent, but they are also principled; she is fighting to save her people from what she perceives to be a cultural genocide. And that is what makes her, and this episode, very interesting.
Perhaps they should've declared that in the episode, if that was indeed their intention.
Neither Bonnie nor any rebel Zygon actually stated what they wanted, or what they considered a treason/traitorous offence. They just started an insurgent movement and left a string of bodies in their wake.
This is why I have trouble understanding or sympathizing with the Zygons in this two parter. They come off no different than any other antagonist, bully race. Dalek, Cybermen, Kree, Skrull, Cylon, Kryptonian, Borg etc. All have tried to invade their respective Earth's and taken the position that, "their way, is the right way". The Zygons previously trying to conquer Earth twice, doensn't put them in the best position for empathy or tolerance.
I felt like it was pretty clearly indicated.
I never got around to commenting on either episode of the two-parter. The first episode was very flat and uninteresting, and ultimately set-up for the far better second part. The two-box dilemma was presented and handled quite nicely and The Doctor's rant about war was near perfect.
This two-parter also went it a long way in making Osgood interesting to me. I still don't want her as a companion, but I won't mind seeing her again.
This two-parter also went it a long way in making Osgood interesting to me. I still don't want her as a companion, but I won't mind seeing her again.
I loved Osgood in this, but I feel like what I enjoyed about her makes it impossible for her to be a companion.
I mentioned her as a companion because it came up in another thread about companions and a bunch of people clamored at the idea of her being the next companion (prior to this two-parter).
I'm pretty sure they did considering they mentioned the Osgoods were in charge of the list of all the fake identities they set up for the Zygons.
Honestly it sounds like the main reason things went to crap was that the rebel Zygons got their hands on Osgood.
A human reacting with horror and fear to a alien child, that no human outside of U.N.I.T. and the Osgoods knows were placed within the general population, does not equate to the Zygons murdering the entire town (those dumpsters for off hair), and murdering members of U.N.I.T.
Also, Bonnie never stated she was doing this for Zygon children. Nor did she claim to represent the majority of Zygon views (like in a democracy). Bonnie had a grudge, and the means (superior alien technology and shape shifting) to strike back at the civilian population of Earth and the military who deals with aliens (U.N.I.T), and she took it.
I think a diplomatic solution could've settled this grievance before murder had been carried out. But like I said, I think Bonnie just wanted to start a fight. A fight she admits in "Inversion" that she knows she can't win.
I am probably on the outer here in saying that I don't like Osgood. I find her character a cliche.. Same for Clara really she's worn out her welcome for me..
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