"The Zygon Inversion" Grade and Discussion Thread

[Stevil2001]

I felt like it was pretty clearly indicated.

Somebody once caught the briefest of glimpses of a Zygon in its proper form. A child who hadn't learned to preserve its body print, who had been left alone to learn these things for itself. And then word went round these primitives that we were monsters.

We want the truth of who we are to be acknowledged. We want to live as ourselves. At any cost. We want a home.

A human reacting with horror and fear to a alien child, that no human outside of U.N.I.T. and the Osgoods knows were placed within the general population, does not equate to the Zygons murdering the entire town (those dumpsters for off hair), and murdering members of U.N.I.T.

Also, Bonnie never stated she was doing this for Zygon children. Nor did she claim to represent the majority of Zygon views (like in a democracy). Bonnie had a grudge, and the means (superior alien technology and shape shifting) to strike back at the civilian population of Earth and the military who deals with aliens (U.N.I.T), and she took it.

I think a diplomatic solution could've settled this grievance before murder had been carried out. But like I said, I think Bonnie just wanted to start a fight. A fight she admits in "Inversion" that she knows she can't win.

I'm not defending Bonnie's actions-- I'm just pointing out that they're more complicated than EEEEEVIL, and that's why it's possible for her to be "rehabilitated" in the end.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What about a monkey?

Replace Clara with a roller skating monkey.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I felt like it was pretty clearly indicated.

A human reacting with horror and fear to a alien child, that no human outside of U.N.I.T. and the Osgoods knows were placed within the general population, does not equate to the Zygons murdering the entire town (those dumpsters for off hair), and murdering members of U.N.I.T.

Also, Bonnie never stated she was doing this for Zygon children. Nor did she claim to represent the majority of Zygon views (like in a democracy). Bonnie had a grudge, and the means (superior alien technology and shape shifting) to strike back at the civilian population of Earth and the military who deals with aliens (U.N.I.T), and she took it.

I think a diplomatic solution could've settled this grievance before murder had been carried out. But like I said, I think Bonnie just wanted to start a fight. A fight she admits in "Inversion" that she knows she can't win.

I'm not defending Bonnie's actions-- I'm just pointing out that they're more complicated than EEEEEVIL, and that's why it's possible for her to be "rehabilitated" in the end.

Well most people don't view their cause as evil or unjust. The Borg aren't evil, in a sense that they hurt people to hear them scream. They believe they are helping less evolved species. The same goes with the Cybermen and upgrading humanity to rid it of weakness.

Try substituting the Zygons for the Kryptonians from DC Comics. The Kryptonians lost their home planet. The Kryptonians don't view themselves as evil. However, their machinations would make victims of every living thing on Earth.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92ofuldjp8I[/yt]

The Zygons are invaders (now refugees) from another planet. They have no claim to Earth. Unlike say, the Siliurians (Homo-Reptilia) who do. It's not a matter of good vs evil. It's a matter of right vs wrong and it is wrong to use violence to impose your will onto another group of people. That's the stickler for me. The use of violence in order to get what you want, when words and diplomacy would've been sufficient. However, that's not always the case.

Another substitution to think about: Change Bonnie with the Female Changeling from DS9. Think of all the things the Female Changeling wanted to and did do to impose her will on all "Solids". Would anyone advocate for her to be "rehabilitated" and immediately forgiven and sent on her way?

The answer is no, of course. But if your goal is to tidy everything up with a happy ending, then of course Bonnie can go live merrily in her Osgood cosplay.


This is what I feel the short comings of Moffat and Harness' writing. They were too eager to do a subject on something topical, and then too quick to give themselves a happy ending, absolving those at fault of all consequences.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

What about a monkey?

Replace Clara with a roller skating monkey.

Maybe not that.

Dalek Clara would have made for a fun companion

 

[M.A.C.O.]

What about a monkey?

Replace Clara with a roller skating monkey.

Maybe not that.

Dalek Clara would have made for a fun companion

Naw, I think the Doctor needs a talking, anthropomorphic lion, that breathes fire, for a sidekick. Jesus, WTF is this show anymore?

I feel like the show is undergoing an identity crisis.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

What about a monkey?

Replace Clara with a roller skating monkey.

Maybe not that.

Dalek Clara would have made for a fun companion

Naw, I think the Doctor needs a talking, anthropomorphic lion, that breathes fire, for a sidekick. Jesus, WTF is this show anymore?

I feel like the show is undergoing an identity crisis.

It's going through something, that's for sure..

 

[Lonemagpie]

Finally saw Peter Harness's Zygon two parter- that was good, felt like real proper DW. First half a little heavy handed with the parallels to Islamic extremism vs Islamophobia (though it may have felt less so prior to Friday's events in Paris and the fallout from that online and in the media) but the second half's big long speech from the Doctor was worth the admission price on its own.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Dalek Clara would have made for a fun companion

Naw, I think the Doctor needs a talking, anthropomorphic lion, that breathes fire, for a sidekick. Jesus, WTF is this show anymore?

I feel like the show is undergoing an identity crisis.

Dalek-Clara (by which I presume Coco Pops means Oswin?) would have been interesting, especially if there were a way to use the Dalek nanites to make herself appear human (with her eyestalk occasionally popping out). Then you have a Seven of Nine-type character -- used to be human, reprogrammed technologically into being an unstoppable killing machine, now relearning how to be human.

The problem with this, besides the fact that the Nation estate would be rubbing their hands and thinking "Money!" at this, is that, to do this sort of redemptive story justice, it would have to be pitched outside of Who's "Family Audience." There are implications to the Daleks nanites and being converted into a Dalek that I don't think Doctor Who is really positioned to develop adequately. (The obvious one about the Dalek nanites of "Asylum" -- why wouldn't the Daleks weaponize them, deploy them in a planet's biosphere, and turn the whole planet's population into stealth Daleks?) If Doctor Who returned to the New Adventures ethos or if the show were pitched at a genre audience, maybe a Dalek-Clara would be acceptible. Maybe.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Dalek Clara would have made for a fun companion

Naw, I think the Doctor needs a talking, anthropomorphic lion, that breathes fire, for a sidekick. Jesus, WTF is this show anymore?

I feel like the show is undergoing an identity crisis.

Dalek-Clara (by which I presume Coco Pops means Oswin?) would have been interesting, especially if there were a way to use the Dalek nanites to make herself appear human (with her eyestalk occasionally popping out). Then you have a Seven of Nine-type character -- used to be human, reprogrammed technologically into being an unstoppable killing machine, now relearning how to be human.

The problem with this, besides the fact that the Nation estate would be rubbing their hands and thinking "Money!" at this, is that, to do this sort of redemptive story justice, it would have to be pitched outside of Who's "Family Audience." There are implications to the Daleks nanites and being converted into a Dalek that I don't think Doctor Who is really positioned to develop adequately. (The obvious one about the Dalek nanites of "Asylum" -- why wouldn't the Daleks weaponize them, deploy them in a planet's biosphere, and turn the whole planet's population into stealth Daleks?) If Doctor Who returned to the New Adventures ethos or if the show were pitched at a genre audience, maybe a Dalek-Clara would be acceptible. Maybe.

I get that but what other problems do the nanites pose that can't fit into this show now?

That's partly why I thought Clara was still a bit Dalek after being inside that Dalek in the Davros two parter, that the nanites are still inside her..

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I never got around to commenting on either episode of the two-parter. The first episode was very flat and uninteresting, and ultimately set-up for the far better second part. The two-box dilemma was presented and handled quite nicely and The Doctor's rant about war was near perfect.

This two-parter also went it a long way in making Osgood interesting to me. I still don't want her as a companion, but I won't mind seeing her again.

After the Doctor's speech at the end, this is my favorite episode of the season. It just felt so inherently Doctorish to me.

I liked that the Doctor eventually mentioned the deliberate parallels between the Osgood Boxes and the Moment from "The Day of the Doctor." I was already thinking that they looked quite similar from the outset. Glad to know it wasn't just me.

Kudos to Jenna Coleman for, halfway through the episode, totally making me forget that "Bonnie" & Clara were played by the same actress.

I really like Osgood but I suspect that her charm would wear off quickly if they made her a regular companion. I liked what they did with her at the end of the episode. I like that she's specifically not going with the Doctor because she has an important job to do. And as we got that final crane shot with the 2 Osgoods walking away while the TARDIS dematerialized, I started asking, "Did we just see the backdoor pilot for a spin-off?" (My Two Osgoods, Fridays at 8pm!)

 

[Mr Soak]

(My Two Osgoods, Fridays at 8pm!)

"When one Osgood isn't enough (even if at least one of them is a Zygon)!"