The Xindi War and the Kelvin Timeline

[arch101]

I actually just watched Enterprise series 3 again last week. I think the new film piqued my interest a bit. I'm just assuming that Edison was some unseen MACO who was in Major Hayes' team. That's not a hard assumption to make. We saw a few regulars but there were also several rotating actors as minor MACOs. Just assume this is how he fought Xindi's and assume he became a Major in his own right for the Romulan War. Graduated to Captain in the new Fed Starfleet. It all jives.

 

[drt]

Edison never says he fought Xindi, just that "millions were lost to the Xindi and Romulan Wars"

 

[Dick Whitman]

If we can come up with a number of explanations why Khan could remember Chekov, why not also assume Edison was an unseen MACO during the Xindi mission?

 

[The Wormhole]

If we can come up with a number of explanations why Khan could remember Chekov, why not also assume Edison was an unseen MACO during the Xindi mission?

How do you explain the rank anomaly I pointed out?

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I honestly don't see why the Xindi, particularly the Reptillian and Insectoid species, wouldn't be launching border raids against Starfleet. It would explain why the Earth Starfleet was not defending Earth when the weapon was deployed. They were off, distracted by encroaching Xindi ships.

I don't think it was meant to be Starfleet's role to defend Earth against foreign encroachment at that point in time. The MACOs would be the ones doing that, if any Earth forces were (as opposed to the Vulcans). Starfleet began recalling its ships to Earth after the Xindi attack, hence there being a few there to help intercept Duras, but Starfleet's job before the attack was exploration, not border patrol or military defense.

...Does this mean that Edison was aboard NX-01 in Xindi space, then?

If those events played out the same way in this reality, I should think so. Don't see why not, anyway. It certainly would be a perfect opportunity for him to acquire "lots of off-world combat experience," which as per "Harbinger" the MACOs had little or none of prior to tagging along with Archer, only simulated. There could doubtless be other such opportunities elsewhere going forward from that time, though.

Doesn't quite work, since we knew most of the MACO's as regular guests characters. We never saw an Edison.

I think the key word there is "most."

How do you explain the rank anomaly I pointed out?

What's the anomaly? The MACOs were disbanded years after ENT, by which time he had risen through the ranks, been field-promoted, gone to officer school, however they roll at Military Assault Command.

 

[M'Sharak]

Trying to recall - were the MACOs we saw in Enterprise supposed to have been all there were, or was that just one of a number of MACO units, with others assigned duty elsewhere?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Trying to recall - were the MACOs we saw in Enterprise supposed to have been all there were, or was that just one of a number of MACO units, with others assigned duty elsewhere?

Didn't Columbia have it's own MACO team?

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Trying to recall - were the MACOs we saw in Enterprise supposed to have been all there were, or was that just one of a number of MACO units, with others assigned duty elsewhere?

The MACOs with Archer were a detachment on loan from Earth's military. But it wouldn't make sense for them to send on that assignment personnel who were particularly inexperienced relative to others. (Counting down to the post from @Timo beginning with: "On the contrary, that's exactly what they would have done..." )

Didn't Columbia have it's own MACO team?

I don't think so. Hernandez said she wasn't comfortable with it. But other ships could have had.

 

[OpenMaw]

I don't think it was meant to be Starfleet's role to defend Earth against foreign encroachment at that point in time. The MACOs would be the ones doing that, if any Earth forces were (as opposed to the Vulcans). Starfleet began recalling its ships to Earth after the Xindi attack, hence there being a few there to help intercept Duras, but Starfleet's job before the attack was exploration, not border patrol or military defense.

I think all combat-capable vessels would be put on defense missions the moment Earth became Target #1. My idea is only based on the fact that none of the ships we saw during "The Expanse" were seen later on during the weapon's deployment, which tells me they had to be off doing something else pretty damn important.

 

[Timo]

I don't think it was meant to be Starfleet's role to defend Earth against foreign encroachment at that point in time.

Then what the heck would that role be? It sure wouldn't be exploration, as NX-01 was UESF's first bumbling attempt at such a thing.

It certainly would be a perfect opportunity for him to acquire "lots of off-world combat experience," which as per "Harbinger" the MACOs had little or none of prior to tagging along with Archer, only simulated.

And if Edison didn't accumulate combat experience back when he was practicing his first profession, how could he become "one of the most famous"? Simply by disappearing? (Did he have time to do anything else in UFP Starfleet service than that?)

But it wouldn't make sense for them to send on that assignment personnel who were particularly inexperienced relative to others.

I'll have to disappoint you all by not coming up with a workable apology for ST:Aliens...

At best, I might postulate that fighting the Xindi called for some very particular and exotic skill that the actual combat veterans didn't have time to acquire, what with being tied up with (training?) operations elsewhere and unable to make the extremely time-consuming transit back to Earth in time. So UESF didn't route the Enterprise to pick up the veterans, but instead loaded her up with the people who had received the special training on Earth in the past few months.

What's the anomaly?

That the Enterprise MACO team only has this one officer, the Major, in evidence.

In lieu of better info on how the MACO operates, we could choose to pursue simplest possible consistency: Major Edison might have headed another MACO starship support team whose all other members would have been NCOs and grunts. Perhaps instead of Lieutenants, MACO puts Majors in charge of platoons for some obscure reason of Military/Fleet rank compatibility (the way Marine Captains don't get called "Captain" aboard ships to avoid confusion, but get bumped up to Major - in Heinleinverse, not in reality, AFAIK).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Wormhole]

Trying to recall - were the MACOs we saw in Enterprise supposed to have been all there were, or was that just one of a number of MACO units, with others assigned duty elsewhere?

The MACOs were implied to be a larger force with the ones on the NX-01 just one MACO unit. Aside from some details in the episode Harbinger we never learn much about their backstory. The novelization of The Expanse does offer some insight, particularly the idea that there's a "MACO Academy" which is a three year program in which 90% of the students wash out in their first few months. This might have been contradicted in the show, Major Hayes says he trained at West Point, though I guess there's still some wiggle room if you're inclined to accept "MACO Academy."

Didn't Columbia have it's own MACO team?

Archer recommended Captain Hernandez get MACOs assigned to Columbia, but we never saw any on the show. The novels do have a MACO contingent assigned to Columbia, though.

 

[Timo]

The novelization of The Expanse does offer some insight, particularly the idea that there's a "MACO Academy" which is a three year program in which 90% of the students wash out in their first few months.

Which sounds a bit silly, as MACO suggests a minor sub-organization of a sub-organization: the Operations branch of Assault Command in the Military. Why would it have its own academy? Is there a "SEAL Academy"? (Well, there is, if you google for it, but it doesn't have much to do with SEALs...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

I'm not getting why Edison being a Major at the time of the MACO disbanding (in 2161, right?) means he must already be one nearly a decade earlier. Especially not when there was a whole war (or set of them, even) with the Romulans in between. Did I miss something?

Then what the heck would that role be? It sure wouldn't be exploration, as NX-01 was UESF's first bumbling attempt at such a thing.

I'm still befuddled as to what reference is leading you to think this.

 

[Timo]

I'm not getting why Edison being a Major at the time of the MACO disbanding (in 2161, right?) means he must already be one nearly a decade earlier.

That would be corollary to the concept where Edison must have done all his heroic stuff under Archer because he couldn't have fought the Xindi at any other time.

But that's a dubious concept in at least three ways: the Xindi could have been a menace beyond what we saw of Archer's adventures; Edison could have fought them at low rank, the promotions and hero worship only coming later; and all of Edison's good rep could actually come from things totally unrelated to the Xindi, perhaps even unrelated to his MACO career at all (since our heroes feel he's one of the most legendary early Starfleet Captains).

I'm still befuddled as to what reference is leading you to think this.

Besides Archer for four years telling and then showing that he's doing all of this stuff for the very first time, despite being Starfleet's hand-picked explorer, there's Cochrane's speech about the Warp Five Engine being necessary for any sorties into the truly unknown (and nobody had it before Archer), Forrest being convinced Archer will make history every light year...

...It's not as if there would be a shred of evidence for Starfleet having explored anything before Archer. For all the stories about ECS folks and other Earth civilians encountering strange things, there exact number of corresponding Starfleet legends is zero.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Earth and the military forces tasked with protecting its citizens had already "lost millions to the Xindi" from the moment of the attack on Florida, which would doubtless be viewed as an act of war, so it's not actually necessary to postulate more than that to explain this particular reference of Edison's (although it's obviously possible to do so, and some may find it desirable). Besides, whatever losses to the Xindi he was describing were lumped together with those incurred during the Romulan War(s).

Besides Archer for four years telling and then showing that he's doing all of this stuff for the very first time, despite being Starfleet's hand-picked explorer, there's Cochrane's speech about the Warp Five Engine being necessary for any sorties into the truly unknown (and nobody had it before Archer), Forrest being convinced Archer will make history every light year...

Because of her unparalleled speed, NX-01 was making history by pushing the frontier much farther from Earth than had been possible up to that point, expanding the reach of exploratory efforts to include "thousands of inhabited worlds" as per Cochrane's words. But there would have been plenty to explore within their limited former range in the decades prior to that, even if Forrest would consider this still merely "wading ankle-deep in the ocean of space" by comparison to the far deeper plunge NX-01 was poised to take. In an ocean as vast as space, there must be a great deal to discover and map and catalogue and study even just up to the point where you've barely gotten your feet wet. (Heck, perhaps just within our Solar system! We know from "Strange New Worlds" that Archer and Tucker once went on a "training mission" to Titan. What better way to train explorers than by having them explore their own backyard?) And even if there ultimately did turn out to be relatively little of interest worth mentioning, that doesn't mean they didn't go looking.

It's not as if there would be a shred of evidence for Starfleet having explored anything before Archer.

What of the Neptune-class survey ships in service for "over a decade" before NX-01 as per "Singularity"? I would certainly consider surveying to be a form of exploration. (Incidentally, as I looked up that reference just now, I initially thought it might raise a potential inconsistency with the "First Flight" timeline discussed above, in that they are described as "Warp 2 ships" and the episode is dated to August 2152. But this is entirely obviated when considering that such a rating is a theoretical upper limit, and "breaking the barrier" means exceeding it, as Robinson did the instant he hit 2.1 in the NX-Alpha. This tallies with NX-01 being classed as a "Warp 5 ship" on paper, but not actually achieving that speed until "Fallen Hero," and even then being caused great distress and unable to sustain it. Thus, Robinson and Duvall were not the first humans to reach Warp 2 and 3 respectively, but the first to surpass these benchmarks. Completely obvious really, but just thought I'd clarify since I was thinking it out.)

Also, Starfleet's motto was seen to be Semper Exploro ("always exploring"), though I suppose it's true we didn't actually see this phrase in evidence until the third or fourth season of ENT.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Politically the Vulcans said "you're not allowed out of the solar system" which is not something you have to say if technologically man can't get out by himself under his own power.

Although the boomer fleet (who ignored the Vulcans) was still slouching around at warp one (4 years to the closest star. Their trading partners had to have been on space stations?) in 2151, which is unlikely if Earth had had Warp 4 engines for almost a decade by that point.

shifts.

Three shifts is good.

Working, off time and sleeping.

2 shifts means that there is at least an equal number of MACOs always sleeping as you ever see on camera.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Politically the Vulcans said "you're not allowed out of the solar system"

I don't think it was quite so extreme as that, especially considering the colonizations of Terra Nova and Terra 10 in the late 21st century, but they might have said "your MILITARY is not allowed out of the Solar system" (perhaps following the so-called wars with the Kzinti around the same time which also resulted in the Kzinti being forbidden "any weapons at all beyond police vessels") and this might be why Starfleet is officially "not military" despite being noticeably military-ish.

Although the boomer fleet (who ignored the Vulcans) was still slouching around at warp one (4 years to the closest star. Their trading partners had to have been on space stations?) in 2151, which is unlikely if Earth had had Warp 4 engines for almost a decade by that point.

The E.C.S. Fortunate had a maximum speed of Warp 1.8 (which would probably mean she had a "Warp 2 engine") but the prospect of her being refitted with a Warp 3 engine (and eventually a Warp 5 one) was discussed.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm not getting why Edison being a Major at the time of the MACO disbanding (in 2161, right?) means he must already be one nearly a decade earlier. Especially not when there was a whole war (or set of them, even) with the Romulans in between. Did I miss something?

If Edison was on the NX-01 during the Xindi mission, he'd be a Corporal, given that's the rank held by all the MACOs on the ship at the time other than Major Hayes and Sergeant Kemper. One does not typically advance from the enlisted ranks to officer ranks. Although it can happen, I don't see someone jumping from Corporal to Major to naval Captain in less than a decade. Then again, this is the same timeline where someone can jump from Cadet to Captain to Vice Admiral in less than a decade...

 

[Nerys Myk]

Why are we assuming he was on the NX-01?

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

If Edison was on the NX-01 during the Xindi mission, he'd be a Corporal, given that's the rank held by all the MACOs on the ship at the time other than Major Hayes and Sergeant Kemper. One does not typically advance from the enlisted ranks to officer ranks. Although it can happen, I don't see someone jumping from Corporal to Major to naval Captain in less than a decade. Then again, this is the same timeline where someone can jump from Cadet to Captain to Vice Admiral in less than a decade...

I would think the Romulan War(s) could readily provide the perfect circumstances under which a non-commissioned officer (especially a particularly distinguished one as Edison was described to be) might receive a battlefield commission/field promotion(s).

It also seems to me that even before this there would be enough time for him to become an officer if he went a more by-the-book route of Officer Candidate School or whatever the MACO equivalent is after serving as an enlisted man. Doesn't it generally take 4 years? (Starfleet Academy does, at any rate.) I don't think that's really an exceptionally uncommon path for some NCOs to take in real life. If he were already such a "mustang" at the start of the RW then he could be promoted up from there by or at its end, and maybe there'd be a further promotion associated with joining Starfleet thereafter. I'd certainly think it significantly less implausible than Kirk's unlikely rise in this universe.

Also, regarding Hayes, he died in "Countdown" (set February 2154) and we don't know who replaced him. It could be someone already aboard and field-promoted up (Kemper perhaps, and thus opening up his position to someone else?) or someone new brought in after they returned home, or both in succession. It could even be Edison...although, again, it needn't be.

And just to clarify, when you say everyone was a corporal except Hayes and Kemper, was that actually stated anywhere or are you just inferring it from us not hearing/seeing anything of other ranks?

Why are we assuming he was on the NX-01?

I don't think we are, necessarily. We're talking in ifs here, mostly.