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The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country

which is best?

  • Wrath of Khan

    Votes: 79 71.2%
  • Undiscovered Country

    Votes: 32 28.8%

  • Total voters
    111
After reading a number of responses in the threads, and seeing TWOK again... for all of STVI's strengths - which are there - TWOK definitely lacks the flaunted postmodern shtick of sometimes-backwards comedy, some of which felt like leftovers from STV too and, dang, one needn't really have seen "Space Seed" to know how dangerous Khan was, or his quest for revenge...

I had to change my vote, but plot holes and nitpicks prevailing, both movies are very strong outings.

Are there any movies where Christopher Plummer was opposite Ricardo Montalban?
 
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Wrath of Khan.

I love Undiscovered Country, but the reason it comes second place is due to how it portrays the Klingon Empire. It, like TNG, forgets that the Klingon empire grows through the conquest of planets. The whole "peace with the Klingons" looks more like propping up a fascist dictatorship, one that has been shown to treat it's subjects awfully.
 
I maintain WOK works better if you go with the Reign in Hell interpretation that Joachim is Khan's son and it's only at the literal last minutes of the movie that it registers with Khan that, "oh my God, I've killed my son and gotten everyone I supposedly loved killed too."
 
...I don't think that is the Reign in Hell interpretation...at least not if you're referring to the novel. IIRC Joachim is Joaquin from "Space Seed"'s son, not Khan's.

What I don't remember is whether Marla is pregnant at the time of her death.
 
...I don't think that is the Reign in Hell interpretation...at least not if you're referring to the novel. IIRC Joachim is Joaquin from "Space Seed"'s son, not Khan's.

What I don't remember is whether Marla is pregnant at the time of her death.

Well Khan raised him in the books.
 
After reading a number of responses in the threads, and seeing TWOK again... for all of STVI's strengths - which are there - TWOK definitely lacks the flaunted postmodern shtick of sometimes-backwards comedy, some of which felt like leftovers from STV too and, dang, one needn't really have seen "Space Seed" to know how dangerous Khan was, or his quest for revenge...

I had to change my vote, but plot holes and nitpicks prevailing, both movies are very strong outings.

Are there any movies where Christopher Plummer was opposite Ricardo Montalban?
There were moments of levity in Star Trek II, and I don't think there was more of them in VI, the first movie Meyer directed was stronger and had a producer - Harve Bennett - who could keep him in check on plot and story points. I agree with Meyer that they should've kept Spock dead; the treatment of how it was done was great and the next movie - the horrible The Search for Spock ruined the elements done and earned by the new characters. Unlike TUC, I didn't see much elements of a passing of the torch, a change of the weaponry or devices or seeing more of a younger presence of crew members and characters which may show TNG is coming and its happening.
 
There were moments of levity in Star Trek II, and I don't think there was more of them in VI, .

The humor in The Wrath of Khan was character based and eased the tension. But really, there wasn’t that much of it. The Undiscovered Country had gags and a lot of self aware and meta humor which worked against the reality of the universe.

Spock’s “Only Nixon can go to China.” (got a laugh)
Chekov’s “Guess who’s coming to dinner?” (got a laugh)
“What IS it with you, anyway?” (more laughs)
“I can’t believe I kissed you.” “It must’ve been your lifelong ambition!” (howls from the audience - I hate this joke more than any other)

Then the obvious gags like the Klingon books under Uhura’s console and all the BS surrounding that.

And so on.

There are a lot more gags in this film than in TWOK and arguably as many as in Star Trek V. After The Voyage Home and once the cast reached a certain age (and weight) there was less interest in making primarily serious Star Trek films. My local critics made jokes about the latest “Sansabelt” uniforms, Doohan hiding an asteroid in his shirt and referring to the cast as “too benign” to be taken seriously. This is generally why I enjoy the first 3 films the most. They are the most serious and mature of the 6.
 
How are these jokes not character based?
They are meta jokes, but the kissing one, on second thought, is valid. McCoy knows Kirk better than just about anyone. I retract that one.

The "lifelong ambition" isn't about Kirk it's about Shatner. There wasn't anything in Kirk's character to suggest he felt he was the center of his own universe. Shatner, tho, was the guy with the public rep of a huge ego. At most, Kirk was confident bordering on cocky (by the time we got to the later films anyway).

It's also horribly delivered, a totally different tone than the rest of the scene. Shatner's facial tics are all over both characters (def not an example of Nicky Meyer tiring Shatner out until he stopped "acting"). It sticks out as a last minute addition to toss in another gag. Cut that bit out and the scene stays tense.
 
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Wrath of Khan hands down. After the letdown of TMP, TWOK was like a breath of fresh air into the franchise and exactly what a Trek movie should be and TMP was not. It gave us a lot of what fandom had be jonesing for in the lean years of the 70's, including realistic character development (the aging crew angle) and the first full-fledged space battle. It also gave us one of the most memorable and emotional plot twists in Trek history by the death of Spock. Even if one suspected it might not be a permanent state, no true fan came away from at least the first viewing with dry eyes.

TUC on the other hand was not a bad movie per say, but just more like what TWOK wasn't and devoid of a lot of its spirit. It was a good send off to the TOS crew and I liked that it bridged the gap between the TOS and TNG era by planting the seeds of the Federation-Klingon Alliance as well as the dramatic portrayal of how even in a utopian future, peace can still be a difficult concept to embrace and change, even for good, doesn't come easy for some. I also liked that after years of the first mention of Sulu being scheduled to command the Excelsior in various extended-universe and non-canon sources, we finally got to see it.

My only two somewhat constant criticisms have been the concept of the wide conspiracy that involved Starfleet members and the level of violence.

For the first, maybe my thinking had been clouded by years of viewing the Federation as this perfect construct and how I wish the future will be, but most likely won't. So, I did take issue with the idea of this vision being somewhat tarnished by revealing there were those that still were willing to keep the killing machinery going, either due to personal benefit or mistrust. I also didn't enjoy the revealing of Valeris being revealed the traitor maybe because I never liked her as a character as she just seemed uninteresting to the point when her deception was revealed, it was like "ho-hum". Having the original concept of Saavik returning and be the traitor would have been shocking and made the movie much better.

For the second issue that of the violence, while it's true TWOK pushed a lot of the boundaries of gore, particularly with its ear worm scenes, the Klingon assassinations really amped it up a level, giving us the first Trek film above a PG rating. While I have no issue with sex & violence being the staple of other forms of entertainment (though over-reliance on it shows lazy story creation), I never felt it should be part & parcel of Trek, even though it had been making creeping inroads (at least the bloody violence part) since TWOK. This is perhaps one of the biggest reasons I despise STD so much as well as the idea that was floated of a Quentin Tarantino Trek; as Star Trek should never be R-rated entertainment.
 
The humor in The Wrath of Khan was character based and eased the tension. But really, there wasn’t that much of it. The Undiscovered Country had gags and a lot of self aware and meta humor which worked against the reality of the universe.

Spock’s “Only Nixon can go to China.” (got a laugh)
Chekov’s “Guess who’s coming to dinner?” (got a laugh)
“What IS it with you, anyway?” (more laughs)
“I can’t believe I kissed you.” “It must’ve been your lifelong ambition!” (howls from the audience - I hate this joke more than any other)

Then the obvious gags like the Klingon books under Uhura’s console and all the BS surrounding that.

And so on.

There are a lot more gags in this film than in TWOK and arguably as many as in Star Trek V. After The Voyage Home and once the cast reached a certain age (and weight) there was less interest in making primarily serious Star Trek films. My local critics made jokes about the latest “Sansabelt” uniforms, Doohan hiding an asteroid in his shirt and referring to the cast as “too benign” to be taken seriously. This is generally why I enjoy the first 3 films the most. They are the most serious and mature of the 6.

This is how I feel as well. Post-TSFS TOS movies became too much "winky winky at the audience" for my taste...and took me out of the intensity of the story in many cases. It was the more serious nature of TMP - TSFS that made the films feel different and like their own unique thing...and made the Trek universe feel very "realistic."
 
For the second issue that of the violence, while it's true TWOK pushed a lot of the boundaries of gore, particularly with its ear worm scenes, the Klingon assassinations really amped it up a level, giving us the first Trek film above a PG rating. While I have no issue with sex & violence being the staple of other forms of entertainment (though over-reliance on it shows lazy story creation), I never felt it should be part & parcel of Trek, even though it had been making creeping inroads (at least the bloody violence part) since TWOK.
It's funny because I rate TWOK far lower because of the grim violence that occurs, including the stringing up of bodies, Khan's injuries, and the ear worms. None of that makes for a positive experience, and then Terrell's suicide I despise. TWOK ranks lower for me because while technically well done it is a very grim film, that ends like a TOS episode that is far too upbeat for the circumstances of the film.
 
It's funny because I rate TWOK far lower because of the grim violence that occurs, including the stringing up of bodies, Khan's injuries, and the ear worms. None of that makes for a positive experience, and then Terrell's suicide I despise. TWOK ranks lower for me because while technically well done it is a very grim film, that ends like a TOS episode that is far too upbeat for the circumstances of the film.

Some of this is part of the reason why I consider TSFS a film closer in spirit to the series. It's still got the grim action and serious jeopardy, but there is more humor in appropriate doses, the characters ALL seem like they have history and the joy of the ending is both muted and earned. The story itself may be wobbly, but the overall feel of the film is spot on.
 
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