The Wrath Of Khan Questions??

[Therin of Andor]

The thing I am getting at is that "retcon" means "retroactive continuity." It doesn't matter what Khan says during TWOK about what happened in "Space Seed" -- if we didn't see it on screen and none of the characters say or otherwise indicate that it happened -- it didn't happen. Hence, retcon.

I know what a retcon is.

Your interpretation of retcon is more severe than we are used to seeing and using. For me, a retcon infers that we are supposed to forget a previous canonical factoid because it's just been overridden by a new canonical factoid. But TOS never said that Chekov wasn't on the ship during "Space Seed", so ST II didn't overwrite such a statement.

 

[blueziggy]

i think Timewalker's problem is that he is trying to find problems with the story as oppossed to trying to find the easy solution. he basically is making more problems then solving them in one quick swoop.

its like saying the glass is half empty because there wasnt enough water to fill it, because it didnt rain, because we are in a desert... instead of saying the person only wanted half a cup

 

[Timewalker]

i think Timewalker's problem is that he is trying to find problems with the story as oppossed to trying to find the easy solution. he basically is making more problems then solving them in one quick swoop.

its like saying the glass is half empty because there wasnt enough water to fill it, because it didnt rain, because we are in a desert... instead of saying the person only wanted half a cup

Timewalker's problem is for Timewalker to explain, thankyouverymuch.

My problem has nothing to do with metaphors, similes, or cliches.

My problem is that the writer/director of TWOK -- while in most regards an excellent storyteller -- in this instance took the EASY way out. It would have been simplicity itself to change the dialogue slightly to explain that Chekov would know of Khan because somebody had told him. Or else they could have had a line where Khan explained exactly how he knew Chekov -- seen him on the Enterprise, for example. Note that is NOT the same as saying "I never forget a face." And since we all know that Chekov was not on the Enterprise at the time of "Space Seed" (or at least not one of the senior officers or serving on the Bridge, and therefore not likely to be among those who would meet Khan anyway) -- it's retroactive continuity. And it's sloppy storytelling.

BTW, I'm not a "he." I'm female.

 

[Luke Lightsaber]

Maybe Chekov revewied the previous Enterprise logs before signing aboard?

Also, Khan DID read the Enterprise's technical specs. Maybe he came across an upcoming crew replacement chart that had Chekov's details on it? Maybe Kirk or Spock was reviewing it some months before Chekov came aboard?

 

[Manticore]

Also, wouldn't Chekov have wondered "Hey, this is the system we dumped Kahn off, maybe we should see if he's still around."

He had so many adventures, would he really remember which planet they dumped the madman off on, especially if he wasn't a member of the bridge crew at the time? It wasn't until "Botany Bay" that it clicked, IMO.

 

[Michael]

We never saw Kirk & company take a dump at any time during the TOS episodes, does that mean any talk of them going to the bathroom is fannish speculation?

That made me laugh out loud. Thank you.

Koenig = actor
Chekov = character

actor hired for season 2
character came aboard whenever writers say he did. the end.

Best explanation ever.

And it's sloppy storytelling.

It's not.

 

[Therin of Andor]

And it's sloppy storytelling.

I'm not sure I want to watch movies where I'm spoon fed every detail, with nothing left to discuss afterwards.

We don't need Khan saying why he didn't remove this second glove, either. Or why all his people are blonde. Or why Kirk went back to the Admiralty. Or why Spock became a captain after saying (in TOS) he had no desire to do so. Or where Saavik came from.

Leave those details to the novelizations.

 

[Luke Lightsaber]

Also, wouldn't Chekov have wondered "Hey, this is the system we dumped Kahn off, maybe we should see if he's still around."

He had so many adventures, would he really remember which planet they dumped the madman off on, especially if he wasn't a member of the bridge crew at the time? It wasn't until "Botany Bay" that it clicked, IMO.

But wouldn't it be in the Logs? Unless Kirk specifically left off finding Khan and then dumping him off on some planet in the records?

 

[Manticore]

Also, wouldn't Chekov have wondered "Hey, this is the system we dumped Kahn off, maybe we should see if he's still around."

He had so many adventures, would he really remember which planet they dumped the madman off on, especially if he wasn't a member of the bridge crew at the time? It wasn't until "Botany Bay" that it clicked, IMO.

But wouldn't it be in the Logs? Unless Kirk specifically left off finding Khan and then dumping him off on some planet in the records?

That's a good point. Unless Kirk was negligent, it would have raised a red-flag when Terrell and Marcus were discussing potential sites. Even if the entry was classified, the fact that it was classified should have told them that something was up with the system.

 

[trevanian]

And it's sloppy storytelling.

I'm not sure I want to watch movies where I'm spoon fed every detail, with nothing left to discuss afterwards.

We don't need Khan saying why he didn't remove this second glove, either. Or why all his people are blonde. Or why Kirk went back to the Admiralty.

I think the Kirk going back to the admiralty question is an important one, because it creates more of a gap than there needs to be, and it could have even contributed to why he is such a lameass when it comes to raising the shields in TWOK. I think some of what was in pre-Meyer drafts of TWOK with respect to Kirk suffered or became casualties as well. All things considered, I guess "I don't believe in the no-win scenario" and "I don't like to lose" and "here it comes" make up for it cuz they are such winners, but the unseen/unfilmed Kirk/Rourke scenes (I'm talking about a female character that Meyer dropped, not Montalban's alter ego on FANTASY ISLAND) could have been significant, and the unfilmed exchanged early on with Kirk and McCoy when the latter is bittching, "when was the last time you had your blood pressure checked?" could have been good stuff as well.

But the reason I dropped into the thread was to comment on the Chekov / Khan stuff. In Sowards' draft, according to his STARLOG interviwew, he KNEW Khan was on CetiAlphaV very specifically, because Sowards introduced him reviewing a Khan record aboard RELIANT before they beamed down to what they thought was CA VI. Of course then you lose, "I never forget a face."

My guess is the Sowards material (which I've only seen in summary form) was maybe a bit too pedantic. And yet I definitely prefer his version of Spock in the engine room. None of that 'mixing the fire extinguisher' stuff ... just Spock pushing buttons and getting the problem solved under colored lighting, knowing full well what it is doing to him.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I think the Kirk going back to the admiralty question is an important one

My guess is the Sowards material (which I've only seen in summary form) was maybe a bit too pedantic.

Agreed. They were also separating ST II from TMP wherever possible. More action, new uniforms, no explicit discussion of how much time separated the first two movies, no "II" in the opening titles during opening week (although added to later prints), Jedda not being bald or identified as Deltan, etc.

 

[Janos]

I just rewatched Space Seed and The Wrath of Khan back-to-back. In one scene in the movie, Khan quotes a Klingon about, I think, revenge being a dish best served cold. How is that Khan knows a Klingon proverb? Didn't he leave Earth in the mid/late 1990s cryogenically frozen, then wake up 200 years later on Kirk's Enterprise (in Space Seed), and get exiled on a planet until the movie? I don't think he had any computers on the wasteland planet Ceti Alpha V became after VI exploded. Unless in Space Seed when Khan had access to Enterprise's computers he had to stumble on Klingon proverbs as he was studying the starship's schematics?

 

[RyuRoots]

I just rewatched Space Seed and The Wrath of Khan back-to-back. In one scene in the movie, Khan quotes a Klingon about, I think, revenge being a dish best served cold. How is that Khan knows a Klingon proverb? Didn't he leave Earth in the mid/late 1990s cryogenically frozen, then wake up 200 years later on Kirk's Enterprise (in Space Seed), and get exiled on a planet until the movie? I don't think he had any computers on the wasteland planet Ceti Alpha V became after VI exploded. Unless in Space Seed when Khan had access to Enterprise's computers he had to stumble on Klingon proverbs as he was studying the starship's schematics?

He's just being cheeky. Same way Spock says "Only Nixon could go to China" was a Vulcan proverb. As for how he knew about the Klingons, he studied the Enterprise's databanks in Space Seed, didn't he? If so, then there you go.

 

[Janos]

Thanks Ryu. As you were responding, I revised my post with the thought that the only feasible way would have been when he was studying the Enterprise computers, but weren't Klingons a bit secretive back then? I imagine Starfleet had Klingon intel.... but their proverbs? That's a bit of stretch I think.

 

[Timewalker]

As a historian, Marla would have picked up all kinds of miscellaneous knowledge. I figure she must have told him.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I just rewatched Space Seed and The Wrath of Khan back-to-back. In one scene in the movie, Khan quotes a Klingon about, I think, revenge being a dish best served cold. How is that Khan knows a Klingon proverb?

We see a bookshelf of books in the cargo carrier shack. "Paradise Lost", "Moby Dick" - so perhaps also books and data tapes of quotations and proverbs.

Unless in Space Seed when Khan had access to Enterprise's computers he had to stumble on Klingon proverbs as he was studying the starship's schematics?

Of course. And memorising personnel records, which could be how he recognised Chekov.

Incidentally, the pendant he wears could be Marla's Starfleet graduation emblem, which happens to now be the design of the uniform belt buckles.

 

[Albertese]

As far as not realizing a planet was missing, I always wondered if someone working on the screenplay got confused with the roman numerals and meant "Ceti Alpha IV" instead of Ceti Alpha VI. "IV" would make more sense as it would make V into the fourth planet after the real fourth planet was gone and the Reliant crew could have simply counted the fourth planet from the star and said, "there it is." I never understood why they'd think CA5 was CA6. The only reason I can imagine is that when CA6 exploded, Kahn and crew saw it in the sky and noticed that a pretty big chunk of it was heading to CA5 and had a some short space of time that was long enough to do something to survive the impact. The debris smashed into CA5 in one of its oceans which boiled away most of the planet's water and threw ash into the atmosphere that created a nuclear winter effect which over 15 years managed to destroy just about every trace of living matter except the small area Kahn was able to cultivate with his "superior" intellect's craftiness (the "garden spot" of the planet). He says outright that the planet's orbit was shifted, possibly to a highly eccentric path which, at the moment Reliant came to check things out, just happened to match the altitude from Ceti Alpha that CA6 ought to have been in. Terrel and his guys seem bored with their work so maybe they were not paying attention to all the surrounding worlds, I'm not sure why that should even be standard procedure anyway, sense, really, how often to planets explode? This is the only way I can see that doesn't make the Reliant crew look like a bunch of boobs.

--Alex

 

[Janos]

As a historian, Marla would have picked up all kinds of miscellaneous knowledge. I figure she must have told him.

I thought she was a historian with a specialty on earth history. That said, even if she did know some klingon history (which seems unlikely based on the secrecy of them during TOS era), I can't imagine poetry/poverbs would be covered under history.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Didn't Enterprise (as in, the prequel series) have access to loads of species' info via their Vulcan database? I know they had data on Klingon starship classes (D5, D7 Battlecruiser, Raptor, etc), and it's hard to believe Klingon sayings would be more secret than ship specs.

 

[Janos]

Didn't Enterprise (as in, the prequel series) have access to loads of species' info via their Vulcan database? I know they had data on Klingon starship classes (D5, D7 Battlecruiser, Raptor, etc), and it's hard to believe Klingon sayings would be more secret than ship specs.

I was curious about why they'd let Khan look at the Enterprise schematics. However, I don't think the Enterprise had Klingon ship schematics. I didn't think at that time the Enterprise had a lot of info Klingons, let alone their proverbs. Where else in TOS was it revealed that the Enterprise's computers had detailed info on the Klingons?