The Wrath Of Khan Questions??

[Unicron]

One thing that always bothered me....how can Starfleet (or the Reliant) not know that a planet is missing in a solar system? They should have previously had the Ceti Alpha system mapped and realized that one of the planets had blown up.

Also, wouldn't Chekov have wondered "Hey, this is the system we dumped Kahn off, maybe we should see if he's still around."

The TWOK novelization attempts to clear this up by saying that CA6 was seismically unstable, and the system was poorly explored even by the time of TWOK. That CA5 was capable of supporting human life to some degree was about the only important thing known. Chekov did realize something was wrong when they entered the system and detected anomalies, but he didn't remember about Khan's presence until it was too late - i.e. he and Terrell were captured.

 

[Timo]

It would be consistent that Starfleet lacks the ability to see whether a planet has exploded in a solar system, unless somebody goes there and takes a look. The plot of "Doomsday Machine" hinges on this, for example - as do episodes like "Way to Eden" where a starship foray is required to ascertain the presence and nature of a "mythical" world. Clearly, the Federation has some means of remote mapping, but just as clearly, these means don't allow for a resolution high enough to discern individual rock planets let alone their properties at any appreciable distance.

As for Chekov, it doesn't sound likely that he was even told about the outcome of "Space Seed". The whole Khan affair was really hush-hush, as we see Chekov later kept it secret from Terrell; we can assume it wasn't entered into Starfleet records, either, as otherwise Terrell would have found out about it when glancing over what the records told about his next target planet. It wouldn't be difficult to argue that Kirk and his top officers kept the details of Khan's marooning secret even from their own crew, in order to protect the innocent and the guilty alike.

...Kirk was a big Khan fan, after all, and we don't see much sign of the fan club dispersing even at the conclusion of the episode. The people present at the banishment court session (save perhaps for Spock) would all have an interest in protecting Khan against future discovery, for his sake as well as for their own. They wouldn't let the details leak to people not in the fan club, then.

Of course, it's equally possible that Chekov did know, but simply forgot. He's been to hundreds of planets and used thousands of others as navigation references, after all. It could and should all get a bit blurred in his head.

The third possibility is that Chekov did know but didn't worry much as he thought Khan was stranded on CA5, not on the "CA6" he thought his ship was visiting. If anything, Chekov could have been secretly cheering that Khan had blown up, or hoping that Khan would blow up when Genesis was detonated on CA6.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Therin of Andor]

Unless the eels got blown there by the exploding planet, I'd assume they are native. Therefore they probably ran afoul of them early on.

And it's just as likely they were native to a region far from Khan's settlement, and perhaps brought back after an exploratory expedition. Or only became dangerous to humans when the animal lifeforms died out after the gravitational disasters. Hundreds of possibilities.

Yes, I know Marla was in a treatment but, IIRC, they had Khan treatments before they even checked if Montalban was interested in returning.

 

[trevanian]

Unless the eels got blown there by the exploding planet, I'd assume they are native. Therefore they probably ran afoul of them early on.

And it's just as likely they were native to a region far from Khan's settlement, and perhaps brought back after an exploratory expedition. Or only became dangerous to humans when the animal lifeforms died out after the gravitational disasters. Hundreds of possibilities.

Yes, I know Marla was in a treatment but, IIRC, they had Khan treatments before they even checked if Montalban was interested in returning.

Based just on what is onscreen, there is no indication of anything else on the planet besides the eels, which suggests like cockroaches will on earth, they win in the end. So they'd probably be everywhere, not in a pocket locale. Also, given the conditions shown onscreen, it doesn't look like folks can go very far at all, even superfolks. We can posit all sorts of scenarios, but dramatically it is just not easy to buy off on her death as a recent even for me (so much so that I never even considered it.)

I'm probably in a minority here, but I think TWOK would have worked with Armand Assante or any number of other folks playing Khan (especially given that Khan doesn't even look like himself with the heavy metal hair.) So securing Montalban, while a definite plus, wouldn't have been a necessity like locking the regulars. But if you proceeded from the treatment with McGivers, you WOULD want both original actors (Rhue and Montalban had good chemistry way before ST, when they did a BONANZA together ... kinda wonder if Gene Coon wrote that BONANZA, now that I think of it.)

 

[cardinal biggles]

Sadly not, unless Leonard Heideman or R. Harner Norris were other pseudonyms Gene Coon used besides Lee Cronin.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

The people present at the banishment court session (save perhaps for Spock) would all have an interest in protecting Khan against future discovery, for his sake as well as for their own. They wouldn't let the details leak to people not in the fan club, then.

So if Khan's marooning during the TOS was kept hush-hush...how could Kirk avoid a court martial when he got back to Starfleet at the beginning of Star Trek 3? Can't cover it up, too many people know...a whole new planet was created!

How many people died because of Kirk?

 

[Timo]

Oh, thousands, I'd think. He organized for the continuing war on Tyree's planet, blew up at least one Klingon battlecruiser with hundreds of crew (under alien influence, in "Day of the Dove", with many of those Klingons already supposedly dead) and possibly two ("Errand of Mercy" remastered claims the invisible ship in the teaser was a battlecruiser), and was accountable for the destruction of a Romulan cloakship. In addition, I'd think his contributions helped slaughter a lot of Gideonites eventually.

He probably got medals for most of those deaths. And the Khan thing shouldn't be too different. Odds are, half the Admirality were Khan admirers, too - and while Kirk's rusty command skills accounted for many dead aboard his ship, the wrath of Khan probably wouldn't be counted in his disfavor as such.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timewalker]

The main reason Marla is dead in the movie was because they found out, fairly early on, that Madlyn Rhue had MS and, although she was still acting at the time (eg. Daphne diMera in "Days of Our Lives", and she even did a "Fantasy Island" with Ricardo Montalban!), she was usually confined to a wheelchair.

Then the scripters realised the film was stronger if Marla had died some time before ST II.

It's a shame she died of such an awful disease. Madlyn Rhue also had a recurring role on "Fame" as Doris Schwartz' mom.

Still wish they'd add back the dialogue where Khan mentions her by name before he puts the eel in Chekov & Terrell..............

"...and I'll wager he never mentioned the beautiful and couragous Lt McGivers who sacrificed everything to join me in exile. Now she's as dead as earth--a plague upon you all!!"

Why should Chekov have mentioned her to anyone? He wasn't even on the Enterprise at the time of "Space Seed." That whole bit where Khan recognizes Chekov is a retcon.

It would be consistent that Starfleet lacks the ability to see whether a planet has exploded in a solar system, unless somebody goes there and takes a look.

I can see it now: Kirk wants to visit a planet and beams down. He materializes in a vacuum, surrounded by lots of little rocks floating in orbit. "Oh, damn," Kirk thinks to himself just before running out of oxygen and dying, "the planet has exploded."

In addition, I'd think his contributions helped slaughter a lot of Gideonites eventually.

In all fairness, you must admit that the Gideonites not only asked for their deaths -- Odona's father demanded them.

 

[Therin of Andor]

That whole bit where Khan recognizes Chekov is a retcon.

Precisely when is it mentioned when Chekov came aboard? We see him as a navigator in Season Two, and also as Spock's science offsider. It makes sense that he (and many other crew we don't see until Seasons Two and Three) had duties below decks in Season One.

We don't even see Marla until "Space Seed" itself. Admittedly, Kirk has trouble recalling her name, but it doesn't necessarily mean she wasn't on the ship during "The Corbomite Manoever" and "The Man Trap". Where is Kyle for most of Season Three? Do you reckon Riley transfers off the Enterprise with Rand after "The Conscience of the King" just because we never see him again?

 

[Timewalker]

That whole bit where Khan recognizes Chekov is a retcon.

Precisely when is it mentioned when Chekov came aboard? We see him as a navigator in Season Two, and also as Spock's science offsider. It makes sense that he (and many other crew we don't see until Seasons Two and Three) had duties below decks in Season One.

We don't even see Marla until "Space Seed" itself. Admittedly, Kirk has trouble recalling her name, but it doesn't necessarily mean she wasn't on the ship during "The Corbomite Manoever" and "The Man Trap". Where is Kyle for most of Season Three? Do you reckon Riley transfers off the Enterprise with Rand after "The Conscience of the King" just because we never see him again?

Since I was never able to see TOS in its correct order, I'm uncertain which episode was Chekov's first one. I'm tempted to say it was "Catspaw," since he was still wearing that godawful wig and his superior officers tended to treat him as an absolute greenhorn fresh from the Academy.

But the fact remains that we never saw Chekov in "Space Seed." Therefore any mention of him and Khan coming face to face in that episode is purely fannish speculation. That's why I say the TWOK scene is a retcon.

As for Kirk not remembering Marla's name, he had trouble remembering Carolyn Palamas' name as well. Maybe he just tends to tune out people he considers airheaded anthropology officers? (my own fannish speculation)

 

[Therin of Andor]

But the fact remains that we never saw Chekov in "Space Seed." Therefore any mention of him and Khan coming face to face in that episode is purely fannish speculation.

But it's not speculation. khan says that it happened.

That's why I say the TWOK scene is a retcon.

Wouldn't it only be a retcon if TOS had actually stated that Chekov was a brand new arrival, and thus ST II rewrote that fact? "Catspaw" comments on his greenness, but that could be being a green ensign on the bridge, not necessarily a green crewman just arrived on the ship.

I remember Walter Koenig saying he wasn't game to mention the fact that Khan wouldn't have recognised him because the director, Nick Meyer, might have suddenly switched his and George Takei's parts at the last minute, putting Sulu on the Reliant with the meaty role, but of course Takei wasn't in "Space Seed" either! So the line would make about the same sense.

Then they could have switched Chekov and John Winston, since Khan did see Transporter Chief Kyle in "Space Seed", and here was Kyle with Chekov on Reliant. Only TOS fans going to ST II were paying to see "the big seven", not Kyle.

 

[NiteTrek]

But the fact remains that we never saw Chekov in "Space Seed." Therefore any mention of him and Khan coming face to face in that episode is purely fannish speculation.

It doesn't mean that Chekov wasn't a crewmember either. We never saw Kirk & company take a dump at any time during the TOS episodes, does that mean any talk of them going to the bathroom is fannish speculation?

Khan's line about "never forgetting a face" when he's talking to Chekov could easily be explained. When Khan was in sickbay, Kirk had no problem giving him access to all the ships records (something Kirk probably would have been court martialed for, another reason to dump Khan and not report the encounter.)

Khan could very easily have checked out every member of the crew and their records and his "superior genetic engineering" allowed him to remember each and every one of them.

Sure, it's speculation but you can't expect every single instance and scenario to show up on screen. Some things are just "understood" as having happened.

 

[Therin of Andor]

When Khan was in sickbay, Kirk had no problem giving him access to all the ships records (something Kirk probably would have been court martialed for, another reason to dump Khan and not report the encounter.)

The novelization goes one further, postulating a friendship between a lower decks' Chekov and Marla.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Khan remembered Chekov's "Eugenics were famous russian inwention!" remark.

 

[Timewalker]

But the fact remains that we never saw Chekov in "Space Seed." Therefore any mention of him and Khan coming face to face in that episode is purely fannish speculation.

It doesn't mean that Chekov wasn't a crewmember either. We never saw Kirk & company take a dump at any time during the TOS episodes, does that mean any talk of them going to the bathroom is fannish speculation?

Neither were Santa Claus or the Easter Beagle on the ship, either. Let's please not get silly.

Regarding the bathroom: Please read David Gerrold's book The Trouble With Tribbles (first ed., not the revised edition) about the making of that episode. He addresses the question of whether or not the TOS crew ever went to the bathroom. Gerrold's own opinion was, "Five years is a long time to hold it."

The thing I am getting at is that "retcon" means "retroactive continuity." It doesn't matter what Khan says during TWOK about what happened in "Space Seed" -- if we didn't see it on screen and none of the characters say or otherwise indicate that it happened -- it didn't happen. Hence, retcon.

Actually, I wouldn't have minded a bit if they'd used John Winston/Kyle more in the movie. I always liked his character and felt he was sadly underused.

 

[guardian]

When Khan was in sickbay, Kirk had no problem giving him access to all the ships records (something Kirk probably would have been court martialed for, another reason to dump Khan and not report the encounter.)

The novelization goes one further, postulating a friendship between a lower decks' Chekov and Marla.

You just can't win Therin...........

Some folks just can't grasp the concept of contradicting a fact vs assuming a fact.

They assume Chekov CAN'T have been aboard because no-one ever mentioned him beofre TWOK "Must be a retcon"

There is NOTHING, no fact, no statement, no contradiction--nothing that indicates when Chekov came aboard. Therefore it is extremly possible he was aboard during Space seed and guess what----TWOK tells us that he was.

We never saw Palmer, M'Benga or others before season 2--does that mean that they all just came aboard before their first onscreen appearance??

Did Riley, Farrell, DePaul, Hansen, Kelowitz, etc all DIE or get transferred after season 1 just because we never saw them again?

The writer has the absolute right to make up backstory and reveal unseen facts of existing characters as long as they don't contradict canon.
No canon was contradicted, period.

Get it through your heads--no canon was contradicted. Fanish assumption is not canon.

 

[Grant]

Koenig = actor
Chekov = character

actor hired for season 2
character came aboard whenever writers say he did. the end.

 

[Timewalker]

People, I am not disputing the exact when that Chekov first came aboard the Enterprise. I AM disputing that Chekov and Khan ever had a face-to-face meeting before the events of The Wrath of Khan.

Did Khan have a face-to-face meeting with the other 400+ crewmembers during "Space Seed" who were not shown in any of that episode's scenes, even casually walking down a corridor? No, he did not. And it would be ridiculous to assume he did.

I maintain Khan's line was a retcon.

 

[pookha]

did we see every person that khan saw, no.
and we do know khan was reading about the ship.
that easily could have included the crew manifest.
so as long as there is nothing that proves khan couldnt have seen chekov then
there is no contradiction.

really it is easy to imagine chekov down in engineering when khan and his people took over.
we already know from The conscience of the king that a bridge officer may have spent an earlier part of his career down in engineering . probably as a means of learning what there is no know about the different departments of the ship.

 

[Therin of Andor]

that easily could have included the crew manifest.

Exactly. In fact, his quote was "I never forget a face". (Not "I remember you being the bumbling, green fool of a boy I met in engineering".)

Khan had superior photographic memory. Plus, Marla would have spent at least some of the next few years reminiscing about people she knew in her former career, so certain connections would have stuck.