The Worst TNG Moment

[horatio83]

Religion, god and belief always play and always will play a role in human life. Take politics, of course everybody can find ample of arguments and evidence to supports one's political position but in the end, on the zero-level it always boils down to belief. And yes, Trek definitely has a religious note to it, the belief in a better future. Take Tahir square, people believed that Mubarak is done and then they went onto the streets to implement what they already believed. So with belief cause and effect are kind of switched around and to get back to Trek, here the point is as well that to create a better future one first has to believe in it. Pragmatism alone does not suffice.

I totally agree that the religious figures you listed are great people and I wished that the majority of progressive folks would stop playing the anti-theistic games of Dawkins, Hitchens and so on but emphasize the progressive elements of religion. I'd find it great fun to take apart Christian right-wingers by simply quoting stuff Jesus said and on a more serious note, in politics religion serves the role of what you could call ideological rooting. Leaving this terrain to the enemy because you believe that arguments alone suffice is probably the biggest mistake of progressives in the last decades. When e.g. MLK talks about having seen the promised land in his last speech it moves even an atheist likes myself.

Back to Trek, Picard's point in WWTW is not an anti-religious one, he just does not want to be deified (of which character from the three Abrahamic religion does that behaviour remind you?) and rekindle a belief system that is long gone. Without the accidental interference of the Federation none of this would have happened so like in Dear Doctor not influencing the cultural evolution of a species is the key goal. You cannot seriously view a belief system in which people are killed (that's what the Mintakan male does) as great.
Take a look at our own species, there was human and animal sacrifice in pagan religions, then we made a leap ahead with monotheism. So an equivalent of what Picard says would be saying that the Holy of Holies, God as a signifier for the absolute or the law, is better than sacrificing goats or virgins.

 

[Jonny]

anything involving Wesley.................

Pretty much this.

 

[Paper Moon]

Thanks, horatio83; glad to know I made sense to someone.

Back to Trek, Picard's point in WWTW is not an anti-religious one, he just does not want to be deified (of which character from the three Abrahamic religion does that behaviour remind you?) and rekindle a belief system that is long gone. Without the accidental interference of the Federation none of this would have happened so like in Dear Doctor not influencing the cultural evolution of a species is the key goal. You cannot seriously view a belief system in which people are killed (that's what the Mintakan male does) as great.
Take a look at our own species, there was human and animal sacrifice in pagan religions, then we made a leap ahead with monotheism. So an equivalent of what Picard says would be saying that the Holy of Holies, God as a signifier for the absolute or the law, is better than sacrificing goats or virgins.

Not to repeat myself, but as I have said, in-universe, the episode is not anti-religious. I don't think that Picard's speech in that context was anti-religious, he was clearly making a specific argument against deifying himself, which I most definitely agree with. Had I been one of Picard's senior staff at that meeting, I would have agreed whole-heartedly that Dr. Barron's idea was a disastrous one. Analyzed outside of the crisis situation in which he made the statement, I do think Picard may have overstated his case somewhat; I think there could have been ways for Picard to deify himself and then slowly (over decades) guide the Mintakans towards a better understanding of his nature without it descending into holy wars and the like. But that would've been unpractical, because it would've required him staying there for a very long time. (And it also would have been a horribly overcomplicated and morally bankrupt solution to the problem at hand.)

However, as I have said, I believe that TBTP, in using allegory to make their point with "WWTW," allowed their allegorically-derived conclusions to become too broad, moving beyond a particular character's desire not to become deified, into an implicit, indiscriminating condemnation of all religious practice.

The problem isn't in the episode, it's behind the episode.

 

[Mojochi]

I would've been open to any suggestion made, until the death of Data, which was the cheapest thing they'd ever done. I can't recall anything they've ever done that was such a hackneyed sell out. Even Shades of Gray wasn't as insulting, as much of a low point as it may have been. To just rehash TWOK like they did with Data in Nemesis was just the cheapest act ever perpetrated by them. It made the silly death they gave Kirk in Generations look almost artistic in comparison

 

[davejames]

I thought the death itself was handled fine. I just wish it came at the end of a MUCH better movie.

 

[PamalaLauren]

I found Picard's speech to not be surprising. Wasn't Roddenberry pretty anti-religion in general and to see that carried on wasn't surprising. So although I found Picard's speech to frankly be stupid, I wasn't surprised to see it in an show.

I think many of Wesley's early episodes made no sense and were bad. I liked Wesley in later episodes, but now because I can't stand Wil Wheaton himself (due to some bad personal experiences with the man) I have a problem watching Wesley episodes.

I found all of Nemesis to be crap. I understand why Brent wrote the death of Data, I don't like that he did. I don't like how they tried to open it up so that Data maybe didn't really die. I think he should have died and that's it.

Most of seasons 1 through 3 I can't stand. I have a hard time watching the contradictions and weirdness. I think after season 3 the writing was better.

 

[horatio83]

However, as I have said, I believe that TBTP, in using allegory to make their point with "WWTW," allowed their allegorically-derived conclusions to become too broad, moving beyond a particular character's desire not to become deified, into an implicit, indiscriminating condemnation of all religious practice.

The problem isn't in the episode, it's behind the episode.

I agree with that and think that this was even a problem of TNG in general which unlike the other series played this liberal, atheist kind of game too much. All other series were more nuanced, e.g. DS9 because it actively dealt with religion and ENT because it didn't portray the soon-to-be UFP, realistically IMO, as liberal paradise.

Structurally believing in human rights, Santa Claus or God is no different, neither of them exist in nature and only by believing in them we make them real (here I am obviously merely referring to the real-world implications of a certain belief, not the actual existence of God which is a question that does not really interest me). It would have been nice if Picard had said something more alongside these lines, acknowledging the universal importance of belief in all human affairs and emphasizing that the content and not the belief structure itself matters.

 

[davejames]

Well DS9 paid respect to the religious beliefs of the Bajorans, but it always remained fairly objective as to what those "prophets" really were. And the Starfleet officers on the show remained as unreligious as ever. So it's not like the show suddenly started endorsing the idea of an actual "higher power".

I do agree DS9's gentler, less judgemental approach toward religion was probably the better one to take though.

 

[Avon]

i'm just going to say that not only do i not believe in any for of religion, i actively hate religious people due to having to take enough of their unprovable bullshit dogma when i was growing up. i realise many people will think find this offensive, but you know religious people get to persecute minorities under the banner of 'freedom of speech', so fuck them. therefore i found the whole anti-religion tone refreshingly nice for the early 90's in wwtw.

 

[davejames]

whoa

 

[Avon]

sorry, had an arguement with a rather vicious priest earlier and it kinda vented here. i stand by my general sentiment though.

 

[horatio83]

Well DS9 paid respect to the religious beliefs of the Bajorans, but it always remained fairly objective as to what those "prophets" really were. And the Starfleet officers on the show remained as unreligious as ever. So it's not like the show suddenly started endorsing the idea of an actual "higher power".

I do agree DS9's gentler, less judgemental approach toward religion was probably the better one to take though.

It did not hesitate to point out the wickedness of Kai Winn and it did not condemn the faith of Kira. And while Starfleet views the wormhole aliens as beings that live outside of time the show never implies that the view of the Bajorans upon them is ignorant.

I have always guessed that the prophets ("we are of Bajor") are a future version of Bajorans, the final evolutionary step so to say, who influence their own past in a neat paradox or not really a paradox as they exist beyond time.
So perhaps there is more truth in the religious Bajoran than the scientific Starfleet view?

 

[sonak]

"religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world."

(the more sympathetic addition to a quote that is often cut short to fit an agenda)

 

[Mr_Homn]

You entirely missed my point, but that's okay, I'm quite used to it, which is why I seldom engage in this type of conversation.

You may carry on thinking you know what I believe or don't believe. I shall say no more on the subject.

As you already know, people who claim "atheism" is a religion are not worth having a discussion with.

Like others have already pointed out, it's like saying lack of belief in the tooth fairy is a religion. It's like saying bald is a hair color. It's completely ignorant and illogical.


I've found that most of these people simply cannot wrap their head around the idea of "Lacking a belief". It is not the same thing at all as actively "disbelieving"... nothing and negative are not the same.

They also tend to confuse atheism with agnostics, even though you can be agnostic/theist and you can be an agnostic atheist. Atheism is the lack of belief in a supreme being. Agnosticism is an epistemological theory stating that nothing or almost nothing can be known for sure. The two words are not exclusive to each other.

in the end it becomes a long debate about semantics and other drivel because certain parties are too lazy to learn the definitions of words before they irresponsibly engage in an discussion they are unqualified for. They'd rather just say Durrr athee-isum is uh religion!

of course any atheist who has tried to explain what they believe/don't believe has run into this dilemma at one point or another, or they haven't been around very long.


Edit- to be fair, plenty of self proclaimed "atheists" or "agnostics" also don't know the correct definitions of these words they label themselves with.

so these words start becoming slang for eachother and people don't even remember what they mean anymore, and the english language evolves, or de-evolves, or whatever. why am I still awake?

 

[davejames]

And while Starfleet views the wormhole aliens as beings that live outside of time the show never implies that the view of the Bajorans upon them is ignorant.

Maybe not explicitly, but it still seemed pretty obvious the Bajorans were only worshipping one of the very many "energy beings" we've seen countless times on Trek.

It would be no different than if Starfleet came across an alien species that was worshipping Q or Trelane or the Organians. We wouldn't suddenly consider that "oh hey, maybe they're onto something and they really ARE gods."

 

[PamalaLauren]

I always felt that Star Trek's view on religion was more like "Hey they believe it, it's weird, but whatever."

The Bajorians were looked at as backwards, immature people who needed protection because they were so feeble (at least in my opinion). And I think a main point in DS9 was to show Bajor's streght and ability to stand on it's own as a people.

Look at the Klingons and their "barbaric" behaviors based in a culture and religion. To me it almost seems that Klingons were created to show the worst of what religion can offer. Sure you have good people within a religion but it seems that the poor Klingons lack for the most part common sense beyond their cultural and religious beliefs. Worf only knew what he knew because he was raised by rational human's.

 

[horatio83]

And while Starfleet views the wormhole aliens as beings that live outside of time the show never implies that the view of the Bajorans upon them is ignorant.

Maybe not explicitly, but it still seemed pretty obvious the Bajorans were only worshipping one of the very many "energy beings" we've seen countless times on Trek.

It would be no different than if Starfleet came across an alien species that was worshipping Q or Trelane or the Organians. We wouldn't suddenly consider that "oh hey, maybe they're onto something and they really ARE gods."

But they weren't arbitrary lifeforms, they claim to be of Bajor, they provided the Bajorans with the orbs and there is clearly a stable and enduring relationship between the two species. Organians, Q and Trelane come and go whereas the prophets are always there (from the perspective of the Bajorans).
The Starfleet perspective is totally oblivious of the connection between the two, nobody even thinks about what this relationship might imply about the nature of the wormhole aliens.

Look at the Klingons and their "barbaric" behaviors based in a culture and religion.

They hunt and eat raw meat, they are predators. I am usually not a fan of biologistic arguments but you cannot blame culture if the lifeform is already a killer.

 

[Trek Survivor]

i'm just going to say that not only do i not believe in any for of religion, i actively hate religious people due to having to take enough of their unprovable bullshit dogma when i was growing up. i realise many people will think find this offensive, but you know religious people get to persecute minorities under the banner of 'freedom of speech', so fuck them. therefore i found the whole anti-religion tone refreshingly nice for the early 90's in wwtw.

Wow. To hate millions of people around the world you have never met, for no other reason than what they believe... history suggests that such an attitude can only lead to bad things.

Very UNTrekkian

 

[malchya]

Ahem... as a one time Anglican seminary student. one time pagan and currently a practicing skeptic I would just like to say:

"Justice" was the most cringeworthy of all TNG moments. "Code of Honor" was horrific, yes, but "Justice" was just, well, awful....

 

[Paper Moon]

^^Why? The message I take away from "Justice" is that no law can be both just and absolute. The religious overtones of that episode were basically irrelevant to the message; the Edo god could have been a humanoid king ruling benevolently over the entire planet, and the episode would've been nearly identical.