The worst of the Villians

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Kate Nichols, May 15, 2019.

  1. mlbach

    mlbach Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 27, 2017
    Location:
    Minnesota
    What small group of Bajorans—comfort women and collaborators? Not sure that counts.
     
  2. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    However, when she made that particular decision (of exterminating the Cardassians) she had been cut off from the Great Link for over a year, and might have been unstable as a result of that, and of being mortally ill. So it's theoretically possible the Link as a whole would have made a different decision -though I admit I think the Link as a whole would have supported her decision.

    Also, how "evil" do you think section 31 was on that scale? After all, they tried to do the same to her species, even if less nonchalant and in an effort to protect the Federation....
     
    Terok Nor likes this.
  3. Brain Melter

    Brain Melter Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    They saw that as the only solution to save the Federation and all the people in it. The changeling bred jems like roaches. Do you realize what that means? No matter how many you manage to kill, they'll all be replaced in a matter of days!!! People from the federation are a different story.

    Frankly, when you're faced with extinction you're allowed to anything. It's like self-defense, it legally authorizes you to do things that would have meant a life in prison otherwise.
     
  4. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    If that is so, then why did Our Heroes from DS9 still condemn it, even though they did some pretty nasty, or at least, very debatable things themselves -Sisko in particular (bringing Romulans in the war on basis of counterfeit evidence, killing people in the process, poisioning a planet with maquis on it, etc )? Only because they might have believed the war could be won conventionally?
     
  5. Brain Melter

    Brain Melter Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    Maybe because writers are not used to profound thinking...
     
  6. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Was there ever a figure of Kai Winn released?
    JB
     
    mlbach likes this.
  7. mlbach

    mlbach Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 27, 2017
    Location:
    Minnesota
  8. Brain Melter

    Brain Melter Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    What do you mean?
     
  9. mlbach

    mlbach Captain Captain

    Joined:
    May 27, 2017
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Action figure.
     
  10. Brain Melter

    Brain Melter Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    I see. Thank you!

    Actually, I think a KW action figure would be a cool thing to have.;)

    Plus she could have different outfits.

    Her vedek outfit, Her Kai outfit, whatever she wears in the fire caves...etc
     
  11. Pumpkin Spice Garak

    Pumpkin Spice Garak Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Location:
    PSGarak takes candy from babies.
    She'd need at least three hats for sure. I could dig that.
     
    Brain Melter and Nakita Akita like this.
  12. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Location:
    Lost in the EU expanse with a nice cup of tea
    From the very first time I watched DS9, I've always found Louise Fletcher's Winn awkward. I still haven't worked out whether it was her artistic interpretation, or directors notes, but I've always found something 'off' about her line-readings which takes me out of scenes in ways that other great antagonists don't: even after multiple viewings of series.

    When I rewatch I have that heart sink moment of 'oh, Winn shows up in next episode doing her dull passive-aggressive my child monotone'. I've often wondered: did Fletcher find playing this TV show character demeaning and therefore couldn't be bothered? Or just put the minimum amount of guest actor effort in?

    For contrast: Frank Langella in S2. Great film and theatre actor, uncredited. But never feels like he's slumming.

    But to show this is not negative on Fletcher - she gives a bravura performance in one of my fave sci-fi films...

     
  13. Brain Melter

    Brain Melter Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    To me, she'll always be nurse ratched.
     
  14. lurok

    lurok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Location:
    Lost in the EU expanse with a nice cup of tea
    But not to a generation of ds9 fans. She's Louise Fletcher....

    2011 - she's not (on camera) either Ratched or Winn

     
  15. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Location:
    California
    Gul Dukat was just a classic sociopath.

    1. Unknown number comfort women-rape
    2. Sired a number of half Bajoran children from those relationships
    3. Left his daughter to die in a supernova he helped planned because he got angry with her.
    4. Very charming to almost everyone - sociopath trait.
    5. Doesn't really do anything for anybody else unless he's ultimately helping himself in some way

    Even his bragging about how many Bajoran lives he saved under his administration sounds like paternalistic bullsh-t. I don't think mental breakdown can cover this one. If anything, his sociopath behavior brought about his breakdown. He was the Little Finger of DS9.

    The way Kai Win hid behind her sarcastic statements was classic. She was such a sarcastic slimy type
    of person.

    She had some moments that made her complex, like her story about how she was imprisoned for her belief in the Prophets and beaten everyday. She said all she had was her faith so that humanized her.

    If only they made her appear as a nurse in the scene where Sisko is Benny in the psych ward. :lol:
     
  16. Brain Melter

    Brain Melter Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    Well, it would have been too much of a reminder of "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" where she played the nurse.
     
  17. Eric1981

    Eric1981 Ensign Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Location:
    New York City
    Dukat was definitely more evil than Winn. I just HATED what they did with Dukat though. As the seasons passed by they just turned him into the typical mustache twirling predictable villain. He wasn't cunning, insidious, and intimidating anymore. He just became a typical "bad guy". So much wasted potential like all star trek series post TNG. At least Winn's character was consistent. Dukat's character was more interesting and complex the first few seasons. They also wrote Dukat's character as having too much pride for being a mass murderer which ultimately became more cringeworthy than entertaining. Dukat is not immortal. He got shamed by the Founders. If the situation isn't favored to him, he'd be EASILY executed by Romulans, Klingons, Changelings, etc. His violent "complex" behavior is useless if he ever encounters a borg cube. They will just assimilate him and turn him into a drone. All that "power" gone to waste.

    This is why Garak will always be my favorite Cardassian. Garak is what Dukat wishes to be. Garak in general is probably my all time favorite star trek character. Garak is one of the few things DS9 did RIGHT. He was truly a complex character without the typical hollywood mustache twirling behavior that Dukat was. What I loved about Garak was how you couldn't tell if he was on your side or setting you up for execution. You never knew what his true intentions were. His character has many layers. Garak was a well trained assassin but he was also a tailor. Garak was insidious at the level Dukat could never be. Garak was manipulative but also strangely adorable and even at times comforting but always someone to be cautious about. Without weapons, Dukat is just a soft fluffy pomeranian puppy. The same can be said for any other villain but other alien species like Klingons, Romulans, and hell even Humans have their physical strength. Dukat had a problem fighting ONE klingon whereas Garak effortlessly killed one quickly whereas Dukat was struggling and probably would have been slaughtered had Garak not been present.

    The most badass villain in DS9? Hands down the Founders specifically the leader. She also makes Dukat look like a soft white bunny. She nearly wiped out every Cardassian nonchalantly with no remorse. She had no feelings, no hesitation and her goal has always been the same since Day 1. Wipe out the "solids". She manipulated the Cardassians and gave them a MEAN cold taste of their own medicine.
     
    Pumpkin Spice Garak likes this.
  18. kkt

    kkt Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2014
    Location:
    Seattle
    Dukat had a problem fighting ONE klingon whereas Garak effortlessly killed one quickly whereas Dukat was struggling and probably would have been slaughtered had Garak not been present.

    This is not surprising at all. Dukat was a gul, they are managers and use military violence - big and little disruptors etc. or squads or companies or divisions of soldiers. Garak as a secret agent and assassin has the one-on-one handweapons skills.

    I agree with the point of your post, though. What happened to Dukat in season 7 was a crime and a waste of a great character. Garak was great though, it would have been totally believable for the audience to find out in season 7 that all the time he was translating Cardassian codes, half of the translations were bogus and he was also feeding information about the Federation to Cardassia...
     
    Pumpkin Spice Garak likes this.
  19. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Location:
    JirinPanthosa
    If you defend Section 31’s genocide by their motive to protect the Federation, the sane defense applies to the female channeling. She believed if any solid had the opportunity to do they’d wipe out her people, so her motive was always to prevent any solid from having that opportunity.
     
    kkt likes this.
  20. at Quark's

    at Quark's Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    True, though there might be an important difference. Probably, section 31's assessment of the situation (that the Dominion is a deadly threat to the Federation) was realistic, whereas the female Changeling's seem to be rooted in fixated paranoia. I mean, yes we do see several attempts of " solids" to eliminate the Changelings, but that was only after they had proved to be an aggressive and implacable enemy. Suppose the founders would never have taken an aggressive stance towards the Alpha Quadrant, would section 31 (or even the Romulan or Cardassians) have tried to obliterate them, merely because they are "different"? Yet that seems to be the unalterable belief of the Changelings. We don't even know if their story that they were persecuted far back in history because of their abilities, is actually true, or just a cynical "justification".

    This doesn't mean that I approve of the actions section 31 took, though. Not at all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2019