Spoilers The Witchfinders grade and discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
- Start date
From 7.225 overnights to 5.66 - that's a pretty sizeable drop of 1.565. I did wonder if that would happen after Kablam!. Still strong for terrestrial these days, mind, and for all we know a lot more people watched it via catch-up or streaming services this time.
Worth adding that obviously the last few have been shifted to a slightly earlier time as well which may have an impact.
As the info Bob supplied shows, the odd thing is that depending on your view you can slant the figures either way. either they're the best Who's had in years or they show a worrying downward slide. The truth is of course that they're both of these things!
At the moment I think the true test may be Jodie's second season. The slide has become far less pronounced, and at this rate the series will still end up better watched than any of Capaldi's which surely must count as a huge win from the Beeb's perspective.
"The Witchfinders" is not an example of in media res just because the episode started outside of the TARDIS. In media res is when the plot starts in the middle of the story, skipping over significant exposition, often utilizing flashbacks or extensive dialogue to fill in the viewer. Examples of in media res are Hamlet, The Usual Suspects, and numerous episodes of The West Wing such as "What Kind of Day Has It Been" and "Manchester." Or to use a Doctor Who example, "Day of the Moon."
Definitely Jodie's strongest episode to date. Really enjoyed the scene with The Doctor and King James where she tries to appeal to him to let her go. Liked the end and I liked the Willa (was that her name?) character. She would have been an interesting historical companion although sadly I don't think the show will ever go in the direction again.
That being said, I was disappointed with this episode once again. It had many of the weaknesses of this season...unmemorable and poorly-developed villains/monsters, excessive and dull exposition and poor use of the companions. The Doctor had little interaction with them throughout most of the episodes and one-on-one scenes with her and the companions seems to be virtually non-existent. I thought (and hoped) that the villain would turn out of be a Krynoid (from The Seeds of Doom) but I should have realized that wouldn't be the case. I don't mind new villains for this season but why do they have to be so unmemorable and boring?
That being said, I was disappointed with this episode once again. It had many of the weaknesses of this season...unmemorable and poorly-developed villains/monsters, excessive and dull exposition and poor use of the companions. The Doctor had little interaction with them throughout most of the episodes and one-on-one scenes with her and the companions seems to be virtually non-existent. I thought (and hoped) that the villain would turn out of be a Krynoid (from The Seeds of Doom) but I should have realized that wouldn't be the case. I don't mind new villains for this season but why do they have to be so unmemorable and boring?
Another I enjoyed, especially early on, though once the aliens were revealed I feel like it could’ve ended there. That would’ve been satisfying and felt like a clearer message.
In a lot of ways, I could have seen this as a Pertwee serial.
It also got me thinking, this is the first modern Doctor that not only doesn’t have an apparent arc, but no internal stuff going on. No “am I a good man, Clara?” 13 just goes, much like the Classic era.
I wonder, for those who are missing a little something something, if that deeper character arc would help.
In a lot of ways, I could have seen this as a Pertwee serial.
It also got me thinking, this is the first modern Doctor that not only doesn’t have an apparent arc, but no internal stuff going on. No “am I a good man, Clara?” 13 just goes, much like the Classic era.
I wonder, for those who are missing a little something something, if that deeper character arc would help.
It would.
I said this in the halfway point thread and stick by it. I was never the greatest fan of some of the arcs but feel the show feels listless without some kind of overall driver. It doesn't have to be something overly complex like "The Hybrid" but I think a modern series needs some kind of steer. At the moment it feels very much like the classic series, with the Tardis crew bouncing from adventure to adventure without rhyme or reason and I feel TV's moved on somewhat, ho many shows can you name that don't have some kind of overarching narrative running through them?
Yeah, I took note of that as well, quite odd. And it was really emphasized by the wide shot of her walking off alone across the creepy landscape. At least send Graham or Ryan with her!
Yeah, ha, and that last shot of James looking to the sides and behind as though it might have just shifted position somehow.
I definitely got a "classic era" vibe from this episode though to me it seemed more Tom Baker than Pertwee, transitioning from Hinchcliffe as producer to Williams, thus straddling the "gothic horror" motif to the arguably more "lighthearted" feel of the latter producer.
I too thought it would have been a stronger episode without the "warrior aliens imprisoned" element, but that's what would have happened in the original series as well, whether we like it or not. (I always thought the "Primords" from "Inferno" were so bloody superfluous, detracting from an otherwise intriguing narrative about divergent timelines. But it was like a mandate that had to be met. "we gotta' fit in a monster somehow.")
Had it been recorded sometime during the 70s, we would have had a cliffhanger with the Doctor getting dunked in the river. And like the closing shot in episode 3 of "The Deadly Assassin", Mary Whitehouse would have been "sh!ttin' bricks", raging that the kiddie-winks would would have that as their last terrifying memory of the Doctor until the following Saturday.
Oh, I loved that we had the Doctor quoting Arthur C. Clarke, his famous "sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic" line.
I too thought it would have been a stronger episode without the "warrior aliens imprisoned" element, but that's what would have happened in the original series as well, whether we like it or not. (I always thought the "Primords" from "Inferno" were so bloody superfluous, detracting from an otherwise intriguing narrative about divergent timelines. But it was like a mandate that had to be met. "we gotta' fit in a monster somehow.")
Had it been recorded sometime during the 70s, we would have had a cliffhanger with the Doctor getting dunked in the river. And like the closing shot in episode 3 of "The Deadly Assassin", Mary Whitehouse would have been "sh!ttin' bricks", raging that the kiddie-winks would would have that as their last terrifying memory of the Doctor until the following Saturday.
Oh, I loved that we had the Doctor quoting Arthur C. Clarke, his famous "sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic" line.
If I remember rightly, a few people here noted hints of possible character arcs in the first couple of episodes. There are certainly traits pointed out that have barely been acknowledged since. That in mind, I think you're pretty much on the money.
To torture an analogy, they have a range of good ingredients, but aren't consistently getting the best flavours out of them. The blends aren't quite working, at least for me. It bears repeating, though - early days.
It was interesting to see the Doctor having to deal with sexism and misogyny, something no other Doctor would have to face.
I don’t need an arc per se, but I think if there was something the Doctor needed, or questioned, or something. Like I think Bad Wolf is sort of a terrible “arc” it’s just words, but the 9th Doctor overcoming his experience of the Time War, his speech right before his regeneration, was great. As was Calpaldi’s Am I a good man? I would much prefer those than the Impossible Girl or the Astronaut in the Lake.
Jodie doesn’t have that...though the Child of time thing...but, yeah. It feels very much of the classic era where the Doctor just IS and not a character who changes.
Simple arcs, that only needed a little attention per episode, a reference here, a brief scene there, would be my preference. I would heartily agree we don't need any more sprawlingly complex arcs; too exhausting.
This does touch on another element, here, though - there are threads being left dangling, like the Timeless Child and the Stenza, which in an age when almost every show is to some degree serialised, will inevitably breed a measure of frustration and disappointment in some. Why put those things in, draw attention to them, if you don't intend to follow them through somehow?
I gave this episode a 6 for two reasons and it's the reasons that's impacting my enjoyment of this season as a whole. The first is I find the music really distracting this year, and the second is there is nothing to these episodes that are really "gripping" me.
I think the thing I loved most about this episode was Jodie Whittiker's performance. This was the most passionate we've seen her this season, and her scene pleading with King James was probably my favorite moment of the season. Yeah she was tied down, but there was conviction to the scene that I haven't seen much of at all. I don't know if this is her "I'm the Doctor" moment, but she commanded the screen in that scene. I also liked Cummings as King James even though after the first 5 minutes, the tonal shift of the episode was a little jarring.
Now the things I didn't like and it's basically been the same problem all season long, namely, it feels like this series is meandering and not really gripping me. I mean we're 8 episodes into the season, and who are these people, specifically Graham, Ryan, and Yaz, and I'll even toss in the Doctor there. Are they actual characters with feelings and ambitions or are they there to mark an X on the diversity checkbook. I'm sorry if that sounds mean, but first and foremost, characters need to be written well, and I don't think these characters are written all that well. It's really hard to connect with them because of that. I'm watching this weeks episode and Graham has a hat and that's fun, but I don't remember exactly what they "did". Graham has a hat, Ryan and James have a nice flirt, and I don't remember what Yaz did. I think those are plot devices, not character growth. I think in terms of characters the most memorable thing that has happened to Graham this season was the death of Grace, but that happened in the first episode. Graham also mentioned Cancer, yet if you missed the first episode, none of this would matter.
I appreciate the episodic nature of this season (More variety), but I do wish there was some kind of overarching narrative that just floats there in the background. I mean this is the first time the Doctor is a woman, and one of the things I did kind of appreciate in the episode last night was the adversity she faced because she was a woman. Unfortunately, if you watch this series for the first time and never had prior knowledge of the Doctor Who universe, you wouldn't know she was a time lord, or that she travels through time and space. I read what @Professor Zoom wrote above me, and I think I'm feeling the same way. When we look back at Season 11, what will be the talking point from a show point of view (I think we know what it will be from a fan perspective, but replace Doctor Who with Star Wars or Star Trek and it's the same thing it feels like). It feels like most of the talking points about this series right now is off screen rather than on screen, and that's a shame.
As for the Music, is it a BBC thing that music has to be consistently glaring all through out the episode. I mean there was a scene that seemed to have important dialogue to move the story forward, but you couldn't hear it because you had loud violins playing throughout. I thought with Gold leaving we would have trimmed the music back but what we got instead of more bombastic scores that never end. It's kind of like going to a concert and all the special effects drown out the performance. Let the performances speak for itself and then the music should enhance the scene, not drown the scene out.
I think the thing I loved most about this episode was Jodie Whittiker's performance. This was the most passionate we've seen her this season, and her scene pleading with King James was probably my favorite moment of the season. Yeah she was tied down, but there was conviction to the scene that I haven't seen much of at all. I don't know if this is her "I'm the Doctor" moment, but she commanded the screen in that scene. I also liked Cummings as King James even though after the first 5 minutes, the tonal shift of the episode was a little jarring.
Now the things I didn't like and it's basically been the same problem all season long, namely, it feels like this series is meandering and not really gripping me. I mean we're 8 episodes into the season, and who are these people, specifically Graham, Ryan, and Yaz, and I'll even toss in the Doctor there. Are they actual characters with feelings and ambitions or are they there to mark an X on the diversity checkbook. I'm sorry if that sounds mean, but first and foremost, characters need to be written well, and I don't think these characters are written all that well. It's really hard to connect with them because of that. I'm watching this weeks episode and Graham has a hat and that's fun, but I don't remember exactly what they "did". Graham has a hat, Ryan and James have a nice flirt, and I don't remember what Yaz did. I think those are plot devices, not character growth. I think in terms of characters the most memorable thing that has happened to Graham this season was the death of Grace, but that happened in the first episode. Graham also mentioned Cancer, yet if you missed the first episode, none of this would matter.
I appreciate the episodic nature of this season (More variety), but I do wish there was some kind of overarching narrative that just floats there in the background. I mean this is the first time the Doctor is a woman, and one of the things I did kind of appreciate in the episode last night was the adversity she faced because she was a woman. Unfortunately, if you watch this series for the first time and never had prior knowledge of the Doctor Who universe, you wouldn't know she was a time lord, or that she travels through time and space. I read what @Professor Zoom wrote above me, and I think I'm feeling the same way. When we look back at Season 11, what will be the talking point from a show point of view (I think we know what it will be from a fan perspective, but replace Doctor Who with Star Wars or Star Trek and it's the same thing it feels like). It feels like most of the talking points about this series right now is off screen rather than on screen, and that's a shame.
As for the Music, is it a BBC thing that music has to be consistently glaring all through out the episode. I mean there was a scene that seemed to have important dialogue to move the story forward, but you couldn't hear it because you had loud violins playing throughout. I thought with Gold leaving we would have trimmed the music back but what we got instead of more bombastic scores that never end. It's kind of like going to a concert and all the special effects drown out the performance. Let the performances speak for itself and then the music should enhance the scene, not drown the scene out.
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Thing is, the Doctor has had an arc in some small form since pertwee, even when it’s an arc designed at the very end of a run or sometimes the beginning and then abandoned. At the very least there’s things like ‘cosmic hobo’ etc that are designed to give an overall feel to an incarnation. There’s little to hang one on here.
Pertwee yes, because he was stuck and trying to leave. But as for the rest of the Classic series? Not really an arc.
Whitaker has as much “feel” as any other Doctor of the Classic series. In the Classic series, the Doctor rarely had anything going on internally. He basically was all external. Which was very much TV at that time.
I suspect Jaime will mention the "Key to Time" season, Turlough's contract with the Black Guardian to kill the Doctor and the "Trial of a TimeLord" episodes that wrapped up Colin Baker's run. But, yeah, the majority of the classic era was comprised of fairly unrelated serials. As someone mentioned, if not for the revolving door of coming and going companions, the stories could be played in random order without much effect.
Yeah, the Doctor was pretty much an unknown "cypher" (hence, the "Who?" in the title), but one could argue many of the companions were not that "deep" either.
Yeah, the Doctor was pretty much an unknown "cypher" (hence, the "Who?" in the title), but one could argue many of the companions were not that "deep" either.
Having not watched the classic series, what is the appeal of Doctor Who if there was no connection to the characters. I mean when I first started watching the series, the first episode I saw took place at the end of the World, and they were blasting Britney Spears Toxic in one scene. I'm not sure why I decided to continue the series, but I was intregued to the point where I watched episode 1 and watched the series ever sense. Throughout the season, we got to see that chemistry between the Doctor and Rose flourish and I think it was Eccleston himself that made me keep watching, but we got see him develop and face his demons head on, to the point where before he regenerates he said he and Rose were fantastic.
That's what I mean by character growth. If the characters don't grow, then the show rides on the plot and external forces. If those are not good, then the show is not good, so I was just curious if the Doctor was a cypher in the old series, what was the appeal to keep coming back and make this franchise the long lasting show it has become?