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The Wire - no spoilers!

If you actually think The Shield was endorsing police corruption then you either went in with your mind made up (I'm guessing it's this one judging by your rants for other shows) or you didn't pay any attention. The Shield is all about the consequences of bad behavior.
 
The plot didn't need Herc working at the mayor's office,
It needed Prez in the schools. Alright, it could have just created a new entry point character instead (just as the academic problem to help the kids could have worked without Colvin), but they were clearly moving the characters around to demonstrate plot and theme points. You hit the point about Herc on the head, for example. They wanted to make that point with Herc, so in he went.

The tugging at realism here isn't a criticism, however. I love Prez and I like how he was handled in that case; realism is never really a priority for me as much as entertainment is (I am at heart a very shallow individual.)

I feel that the police-procedural element is the sugar-coated shell, but that the delicious chocolate centre is the show's exploration of the city of Baltimore.
It's often the better stuff. It's why season four is probably my favourite season so far (since the earlier post, I've already finished it... The Wire does like to eat up my available time for some reason. At this rate I'll be finished the series within the next five minutes).

Overall I'd give good marks to most major plot points besides the dockworker stuff in season 2; the treatment of the schools and the political infrastructure was fascinating. I guess The Wire plainly isn't a fun series (Mad Men is fun, I just generate enjoyment even from looking at a slick still image of that show) but it is an engrossing one more often then not, so I'm not regretting watching it so far.
 
I've only seen S1 of The Wire, not because I didn't like it, but because I couldn't stand only getting a disc at a time through the mail. I'm asking for the whole series for my birthday so I can blast through them and re-watch them.

What makes The Wire great is that it gets the details right, even the ones that seem like they don't matter. Yes, it really does take a phonebook sized affidavit to put a wire on telephones - and yes, you do have to get extensions every thirty days. All other procedurals I've ever seen will cut corners like this without even thinking about it. The characters are incredibly three dimensional: nobody is all good or all bad. I can't think of another show in which the "bad guys" are as layered and complex and likeable in some twisted way like Stringer and D'Angelo and Omar. The code words, the hierarchy, the cop/lawyer/official politics all ring totally true.

Two scenes stand out in my mind (no spoilers): Bunk and McNulty examining a crime scene that was mishandled by another cop. The entirety of the dialogue consists of various intonations of "F*ck!" Nothing is explained, and yet the viewer totally understands how the crime has to have happened. Also? Watch for the scene that explains why a 5th grader can't do a simple math word problem, but can keep track in her head of baggies sold and re-upped throughout a whole day. It's chilling.

Crimes aren't solved in 52 minutes, and crime syndicates like the Barksdale crew might take 2 years to bring down -- if you ever do. The Wire gets it so, so right.
 
I can't think of another show in which the "bad guys" are as layered and complex and likeable in some twisted way like Stringer and D'Angelo and Omar.
Really am fond of D'Angelo Barksdale. He's pretty much the most fascinating character on the crime side of the equation. Everything from his discussion of McNuggets to chess is underlined by the futility of the low-level pushers at the Pit. "The king stay the king."

The entirety of the dialogue consists of various intonations of "F*ck!"

I think they say nothing other than "Motherfucker"/"fuck".
 
If you actually think The Shield was endorsing police corruption then you either went in with your mind made up (I'm guessing it's this one judging by your rants for other shows) or you didn't pay any attention. The Shield is all about the consequences of bad behavior.

Exactly, and how can someone refrence the Rampart scandel when the reult was cops in prison and the CRASH/ Team disbanded, just a taste of how The Shield and the Strike Team ended up
 
Giving the antihero his comeuppance after years of enjoying his success is not quite the same thing as saying a brutal, corrupt cop is not going to be a successful cop. Judging from the rave reviews, Vic Mackey may be brutal and corrupt but he gets the job done, the criminals are caught. Civil rights may be trampled and Vic may do some other dirt along the way but Mackey is the Man when it comes to busting crime.

What I think is that a Mackey would only catch the real perpetrators more or less at random, that people would be framed for crimes they didn't commit while the true criminals went unpunished. The supposed successes of Mackey would be frauds and the true failures covered up. People would be in more danger under a Mackey "shield," not less, meaning Mackey isn't even The Shield at all. Anyone who opposes Mackey is a bureaucratic tightass who puts rules and regulations above protecting the innocent. My problem with watching The Shield is that it sounds too ridiculous to take seriously, but it's not a comedy.

Giving Mackey his just desserts can be exactly like some movie or TV show that lovingly details the sexual adventures of a slut just to show how she comes to a bad end. The perfunctory bad end just takes the curse off vicariously enjoying the shenanigans and reaffirms that, oh, yes, we have decent morals, yes, sir!

Now I suppose in principle it is possible the rave reviews misled me, that the series is in fact an oddity centered on a villain instead of an antihero. Isn't it a shame that people who liked the show were so misleading?
 
Did you ever watch The Shield. They never enjoyed success. The series opened with a cop being murdered and the team trying in vain, using the same tactic of the gangs they were commissioned to fight to stay ahead of their Captains for the rest of the run. A convential show would have had the resolution of dirty cops in 44 minutes not spread over 5 seasons. Just as an ordinary cop show would have did what the Deputy Ops wanted and ended with the arrest of the Pit Crew who would have given up Avon in someway.
 
It needed Prez in the schools. Alright, it could have just created a new entry point character instead (just as the academic problem to help the kids could have worked without Colvin), but they were clearly moving the characters around to demonstrate plot and theme points. You hit the point about Herc on the head, for example. They wanted to make that point with Herc, so in he went.
But Herc's move made sense for his character, he wanted to be promoted to sergeant since the first season but he was too far down the list, so he moved to the mayor's office because he was told it was a fast way of getting promoted. It wasn't an essential plot point, it was sensible character development.

As for Prez and Colvin, I agree with you there, and it's one of the reasons why I don't rave about season 4 as much as others do. I still think it was an excellent season, but I prefer seasons 1, 3 and (the much maligned) 5.

Overall I'd give good marks to most major plot points besides the dockworker stuff in season 2; the treatment of the schools and the political infrastructure was fascinating. I guess The Wire plainly isn't a fun series (Mad Men is fun, I just generate enjoyment even from looking at a slick still image of that show) but it is an engrossing one more often then not, so I'm not regretting watching it so far.
It's fun for me because I love watching politics and bureaucracy for some odd reason, even though I'm not usually a fan of cop shows. (Which is ironic as I'm going to be defending The Shield in a minute.) Meanwhile, I couldn't get into Mad Men for some reason. I found out that RTE had the first two seasons on their website so I set out to watch it, but I stopped after the third episode. I was hoping that it would be more about the advertising business, but instead it got caught up in gender politics of the 1950s and it lost my interest. I have no doubt that it is a great show, I'm just not sure that it's what I'm looking for.

Giving the antihero his comeuppance after years of enjoying his success is not quite the same thing as saying a brutal, corrupt cop is not going to be a successful cop. Judging from the rave reviews, Vic Mackey may be brutal and corrupt but he gets the job done, the criminals are caught. Civil rights may be trampled and Vic may do some other dirt along the way but Mackey is the Man when it comes to busting crime.
Not at all, 15 minutes into the pilot it is made clear that Mackey is already under investigation for his crimes. His own captain hounds him with the intent of shutting the Strike Team down, but he can't do that without evidence of Mackey's misdeeds, and Mackey is incredibly smart at covering his tracks. Mackey is rarely given a free ride for getting results (although there are a few exceptional cases).

People would be in more danger under a Mackey "shield," not less, meaning Mackey isn't even The Shield at all.
Yes. You do realise that naming the show The Shield was partially ironic, right?

Anyone who opposes Mackey is a bureaucratic tightass who puts rules and regulations above protecting the innocent.
Now you have made it abundantly clear that you are speaking from an ignorant standpoint. Half the cast are opposed to Mackey's methods, several work in order to get his unit shut down. They are not portrayed as bureaucratic tight-asses, but as concerned cops that want the Strike Team shut down because it is wrong.

My problem with watching The Shield is that it sounds too ridiculous to take seriously, but it's not a comedy.
You realise you're a member of a forum filled with sci-fi and fantasy fans, right? :vulcan:


Look, you don't have a leg to stand on because you have clearly never attempted to watch the show. Like I said, after watching the pilot I had the same concerns you have, but I was convinced to push on and I'm glad that I did. It can be outlandish and some of the police investigations are far too simplistic, but at its core it is a great character drama and well worth the watch.
 
stj argues that BSG is conservative propaganda despite Ron Moore being extremely liberal. Don't expect to get far in this one, Godben.
 
Personally, I much prefer scifi that doesn't take itself too seriously (like SG1 and Sanctuary and Eureka,) precisely because I can't take their premises seriously. That said, in living memory science and technology have found out and done amazing things, which makes it possible to cut scifi some slack in the willing suspension of disbelief.

Believing that trampling civil rights and brutalizing suspects is all it takes to get results or that brutal, corrupt cops are incredibly smart requires a different kind of suspension of disbelief. I make no apologies for not having it.

Star Wolf, however, says Mackey & Co. never enjoyed success. The reviews and incidental praise for The Shield never gave a hint of this. TheGodBen also says that Mackey's opponents were not debased or villainized. They may not have been treated as antivillains or been publicized like Mackey, but sounds better. Indeed, he goes so far to say the very title was partially ironic.

Why, if these things are true, The Shield may actually be worth watching. These are not aspects of the show dwelt upon in the rave reviews. The rave reviews gave the impression I described. As I said before, it's a real shame when fans inadvertently make their show or movie sound bad by leaving out the important things.
 
Season wise I'm not yet sure how I'll rank things. Just started the fifth year and though I've heard mixed things about it I'm pretty fine with it so far. Not that keen on the new rendition of "Way Down in the Hole", mind, and I did like the previous four.

It's fun for me because I love watching politics and bureaucracy for some odd reason, even though I'm not usually a fan of cop shows. (Which is ironic as I'm going to be defending The Shield in a minute.)

That's weird. Politics and bureaucracy I actually like; The Wire less so. I think it's the level of emphasis on dry realism in the series; that sort of stuff never clicks with me. I like showy, I like splashy, I like colorful (shallow, remember?). My favourite documentaries are ones like General Idi Amin Dada or those Errol Morris things (diagetic music? Hell no! Give me some Phil Glass). The Wire just isn't as character driven as I'd like, and I get why, but eh.

Meanwhile, I couldn't get into Mad Men for some reason. I found out that RTE had the first two seasons on their website so I set out to watch it, but I stopped after the third episode. I was hoping that it would be more about the advertising business, but instead it got caught up in gender politics of the 1950s and it lost my interest.
It's actually 1960 in the first season (a quibbling point but whatever). Anyway the show actually does deal very extensively in the advertising business (which clients to pick up and why, how to advertise a given product). but it's true a major part of the appeal is critically examining the chauvinist, sexist past with modern eyes.

It probably doesn't hurt I'm a fan of the films and the style of that era, which Mad Men shamelessly revels in. Heck I got a kick out of them actually discussing The Apartment, which, I guess, was an inevitable development. Even so...

I have no doubt that it is a great show, I'm just not sure that it's what I'm looking for.
Accurately sums up my view of the Wire really. The Wire is a very good show about things I know very little about and have even less interest in.
 
Surely the mark of a well written show is that you are drawn into a world of which you know very little about and were not interested in? Let's face it, the vast majority of people who enjoy the Wire are not experts in Baltimore's underworld, nor had they previously thought to research it.
 
Let's face it, the vast majority of people who enjoy the Wire are not experts in Baltimore's underworld, nor had they previously thought to research it.
There's a difference between expertise and interest. People who are interested in - broadly speaking - cop shows, the drug trade, minutiae of police procedural life, and so on - would be the kind of opposite number I meant. They might have even less knowledge of Baltimore then I did getting into the show; but they'd probably be more engaged with what it's about.

How the show plays in Baltimore is definitely an interesting question, though.
 
How the show plays in Baltimore is definitely an interesting question, though.

Just like any show based outside of New York/Los Angeles and their international counterparts it is probably a mixture of pride and concern that the community is portrayed worse then it really is. . I might not know the police, politician, press and drug gang world but the teaching and dying union world I do have some knowledge of and they nailed it. I'm sure the Teachers Union and that establishment screamed bloody murder unless as a body they have given up like Dukie or Nick
 
Why, if these things are true, The Shield may actually be worth watching. These are not aspects of the show dwelt upon in the rave reviews. The rave reviews gave the impression I described. As I said before, it's a real shame when fans inadvertently make their show or movie sound bad by leaving out the important things.

I can see using reviews to decide whether to try watching a show or not, but to pass some kind of judgment on a show without ever having seen it seems a bit much.

The Shield is about fundamental choices to follow the rules, or break the rules. Mackey and his team make their choice early on, and once they've started down that path they spend the rest of the entire series scrambling to avoid various consequences. Sometimes they get a little breathing room, but never for long. They do some terrible things to keep out of trouble, and end up as some of the most miserable characters I've ever watched on TV. Consequences are always a factor in that series, a huge factor.

I personally thought The Shield was OK, not great, and much inferior to The Wire. The Shield developed several interesting characters beside the strike team, and then in the last couple of seasons basically dropped any plot lines that would have developed their stories further, in favor of the strike team storyline. The police department in The Shield just didn't ring true, a lot of the time. Twice they promoted investigators with apparently zero supervisory experience directly to captain in the same precinct they were already working. Come on, there are no other captains or lieutenants in the department? And they also wore their badges on the wrong side!

--Justin
 
Believing that trampling civil rights and brutalizing suspects is all it takes to get results or that brutal, corrupt cops are incredibly smart requires a different kind of suspension of disbelief. I make no apologies for not having it.
The corrupt cops aren't incredibly smart, only Mackey. Shane is a screw-up. Lem is probably the most moral of the Strike Team and was influenced into breaking the rules by presure from Shane and Mackey. And Ronny... he had a moustache, then he grew a beard, then he shaved it off, then he grew a beard again. He's not the most developed character, for the first few seasons he was just "that other guy".

To balance out the Strike Team there's Claudette and Dutch, two by-the-books detectives that are just as effective at closing cases as Vic, and their methods tend not to lead to screw ups that cause greater gang violence. Then there's Danny and Julien, two regular patrol officers that stick to the rules as best they can.

TheGodBen also says that Mackey's opponents were not debased or villainized.
They weren't villainised, but some of them had an agenda. Aceveda for example, he wanted to take down Mackey partly because he didn't agree with his methods, partly because he's running for councilman and feels that uncovering police corruption would be good for his campaign. Essentially, he was doing the right thing but partially for the wrong reasons.

Indeed, he goes so far to say the very title was partially ironic.
Also, the symbol of the show was a police badge breaking apart, thereby indicating that the titular shield was broken.

As I said before, it's a real shame when fans inadvertently make their show or movie sound bad by leaving out the important things.
There are fans of the show that support Mackey's methods, this is an example comment from a YouTube video that I saw yesterday:
what the STRIKE team did was right, not legal nor ethical, but right and necessary
Then there are viewers like myself that watched the show waiting for Vic to be caught and brought to justice for his actions. And I have to admit that I came to admire Vic a lot as a character if not as a human being, he was one of television's great antiheroes.

Kegg said:
Season wise I'm not yet sure how I'll rank things. Just started the fifth year and though I've heard mixed things about it I'm pretty fine with it so far. Not that keen on the new rendition of "Way Down in the Hole", mind, and I did like the previous four.
I didn't mind the theme in season 5, but that's because I wasn't a fan of the season 4 theme. The only one of the themes that I loved from the first time I heard it was season 3's, all the others had to grow on me.

That's weird. Politics and bureaucracy I actually like; The Wire less so. I think it's the level of emphasis on dry realism in the series; that sort of stuff never clicks with me. I like showy, I like splashy, I like colorful (shallow, remember?).
Sounds like The West Wing is more up your street then, it has the politics and bureaucracy but it's more theatrical and favours drama over realism. To be honest, I prefer it over The Wire, even though I feel that The Wire is the better show from an objective standpoint. Though The West Wing could be preposterous (Toby once sorted out the Social Security problem in one day) I can't help but love it.

How the show plays in Baltimore is definitely an interesting question, though.
Everything I've read suggests that people in Baltimore feel that it's accurate in the subject matter it chooses to portray (except Dominic West's accent), and that's due to the fact that the writers have an intimate knowledge about Baltimore and the subject matter: David Simon was a journalist that wrote a lot about the BPD and the criminal gangs in the city, while Ed Burns was a detective that later became a teacher.

Obviously, there are upper and middle class areas in Baltimore as there is in any city, but the show wasn't set in those locations so we rarely got a feel for life in those areas.
 
Why, if these things are true, The Shield may actually be worth watching. These are not aspects of the show dwelt upon in the rave reviews. The rave reviews gave the impression I described. As I said before, it's a real shame when fans inadvertently make their show or movie sound bad by leaving out the important things.

I can see using reviews to decide whether to try watching a show or not, but to pass some kind of judgment on a show without ever having seen it seems a bit much.

The Shield is about fundamental choices to follow the rules, or break the rules. Mackey and his team make their choice early on, and once they've started down that path they spend the rest of the entire series scrambling to avoid various consequences. Sometimes they get a little breathing room, but never for long. They do some terrible things to keep out of trouble, and end up as some of the most miserable characters I've ever watched on TV. Consequences are always a factor in that series, a huge factor.

I personally thought The Shield was OK, not great, and much inferior to The Wire. The Shield developed several interesting characters beside the strike team, and then in the last couple of seasons basically dropped any plot lines that would have developed their stories further, in favor of the strike team storyline. The police department in The Shield just didn't ring true, a lot of the time. Twice they promoted investigators with apparently zero supervisory experience directly to captain in the same precinct they were already working. Come on, there are no other captains or lieutenants in the department? And they also wore their badges on the wrong side!

--Justin
Well The Shield wasn't right, they broadcast that fact by switching the officers badges, their shields, to the wrong side of the uniform after the pilot episode. "The Farm" seemed to be an autonomous department, like the City of San Fernando PD surrounded by the LAPD. But then they referenced LAPD Chiefs, other real Division areas and the Internal Affairs Division. I guess in real life the Sheriff, not the LAPD would supply those specialized units to small city departments. Besides the boss situation they had direct firings for budget reason having the captain choose officers X, Y and Z to stay with no union entanglements or forced transfers to the other LAPD Divisions. Unlike most cop shows they didn't pretend their area had the most exclusive housing in the nation one day but then were in housing projects the next
 
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