The White...

[2 of 10]

With all the technology available in the 24th cent, one would assume that even with the wormhole to the GQ closed, the Vorta and/or the Cardissians could have come up a version of The White on their own. Their entire plans to overrun the AQ were totally dependant on getting and keeping the white available for the Jem-Hadar, any thoughts???

 

[SoM]

Uhhhh... they DID make White in the AQ.

 

[2 of 10]

^^

I must have missed that ep...

 

[nx1701g]

^ It was also a big deal in Insurrection that the Son'a were making White for the Dominion. Troi was shocked that Starfleet would be involved with them.

In late Season Seven Damar made a big deal out of Dominion ships being reassigned to protect a Son'a Outpost away from a Cardassian one.

 

[2 of 10]

^^^

Thanks f

 

[2 of 10]

^^^

Thanks for the information...

 

[Myasishchev]

^ It was also a big deal in Insurrection that the Son'a were making White for the Dominion. Troi was shocked that Starfleet would be involved with them.

In late Season Seven Damar made a big deal out of Dominion ships being reassigned to protect a Son'a Outpost away from a Cardassian one.

This struck me as a particularly odd point in INS. I mean, INS takes place during the Dominion War. The Son'a are supplying the Dominion with Ketracel White. The Federation agrees to help... the Son'a?

Leaving aside the notion that the Dominion outsourced its production, which makes little sense in the first place.

The reference to it as a "narcotic" also seemed misplaced. The term "narcotic" seems opposed to how it's explained in DS9. There it seems to be a critical chemical which the Jem'Hadar are "addicted" to because without it their biology stops functioning, similar to the human species being "addicted" to, say, the adenotriphosphate that our body (by contrast) is able to synthesize, inasmuch as without it our hearts stop beating. I forget if it's referenced as a narcotic anywhere else than INS. Were the Jem'Hadar geeked up all the time? Did Starfleet soldiers get high on stocks of ketracel after a big raids on a Jem'Hadar pen? Would Jim Belushi enjoy a hit of ketracel white?

 

[nx1701g]

^ I believe it was referred to as a narcotic in The Abandoned as well.

 

[Timo]

This struck me as a particularly odd point in INS. I mean, INS takes place during the Dominion War.

But there's nothing in the movie to necessarily establish that it takes place during the war.

To the contrary, everything seems to point to it taking place just after the war's end. The Federation is now buddies with people who helped the old enemy (remember all those warmly welcomed and rapidly employed Nazi scientists?), is trying to establish a new network of allies, is in major open negotiations with the Dominion (something hardly possible at any point after "A Call to Arms" and before "What You Leave Behind"), and allows Worf to leave his post at DS9 to traipse around the galaxy. Moreover, the mighty Enterprise is allowed to traipse around the galaxy, on missions quite unrelated to fighting! The heroes never mention an ongoing war, which they surely would if one was indeed ongoing.

The reference to it as a "narcotic" also seemed misplaced.[..] I forget if it's referenced as a narcotic anywhere else than INS.

No such references elsewhere."The Abandoned" calls it just "drug" and "chemical agent", although also "isogenic enzyme". The name "Ketracel White" is not coined yet in that episode.

Then again, KW probably wouldn't work similarly on species that aren't Jem'Hadar. Whether it would work at all is unknown - but we could speculate that it does work as a desirable and rare (and possibly but not necessarily illegal) narcotic, which is why the Son'a originally had the industry to make the stuff, an industry they later put to Dominion use for extra profit.

Or we could say that the Son'a were master chemists, were contracted to do KW for the Dominion, and after the war discovered new and profitable narcotic uses for the stuff. Or then they modified the stuff, so that there now exists standard KW, narcotic KW, stimulating KW, and perhaps also Ketracel Green, Ketracel Yellow and Ketracel Light for the aware and discriminating consumer.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deckerd]

There's no reason for the Dominion to get rid of their Jem Hadar troops after the war, so presumably they would still need supplies.

 

[SoM]

There's no reason for the Dominion to get rid of their Jem Hadar troops after the war, so presumably they would still need supplies.

Weren't they meant to withdraw ALL of the Jem'Hadar to the Gamma Quadrant (where they have all the capacity they need already) as part of their almost-unconditional surrender in the ΑQ? (the "almost" refers to the one and only condition they set being Odo going back to cure the Founders)

 

[Timo]

Not canonically.

In canon terms, the only thing agreed upon at the end of the war that we know of was that the Dominion, for the time being, stopped shooting at the Alpha Quadrant folks and vice versa. The long and short of our knowledge comes from these words in "What You Leave Behind":

Female Founder: "The war between the Dominion and the Federation Alliance is now over."

There was no mention of a withdrawal or disarmament of any sort, and certainly no suggestion that the surrender would have been an unconditional one. For all we know, the war between the Dominion and some other Alpha forces not included in the Federation Alliance was still ongoing at that time... And for all we know, half of the former Cardassian Union was ceded to the Dominion in the treaty that the Female Founder and Ross signed, a treaty in which the Federation actually surrendered to the Dominion in the name of peace!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marie1]

I'm pretty sure the Jem'Hadar with the Vorta went back to their quadrant, and thats the idea in the DS9PF. What would be the point of keeping thousands of enslaved Jem'Hadar prisonner? The female founder went to trial and was put in prison for her crimes.

The White isn't something additional that Jem'Hadar take for a addiction as such,not what a heroin addict would think they needed- but don't need for survival. The white is a biological requirement necessary for survival that their system will break down without. Its also serves to replace their need for food, drink and sleep. Marco Palmieri summerized it once very well IMO, I'll see if I can find the quote.

 

[Timo]

I'm pretty sure the Jem'Hadar with the Vorta went back to their quadrant, and thats the idea in the DS9PF. What would be the point of keeping thousands of enslaved Jem'Hadar prisonner? The female founder went to trial and was put in prison for her crimes.

Or then not. What "crimes" are we talking about here? Waging war? The Feds did that, too. Waging war in a sneaky way? The Feds did that, too. Waging war in a genocidal way? The Feds did that, too.

The Female Founder wasn't particularly evil by Alpha Quadrant standards. And she had little reason to agree to being charged with evil; if she disliked the charges, she could bail herself out at any time by unleashing the Jem'Hadar again, and this time there would be no stopping them. It's the Feds who would have to tiptoe around the issues. That is, after Odo had thrown away the only Alphan ace, the genocidal bioweapon. And that happened before the FF marched to the dais. Assuming the ever did that, of course.

As for the nature of the White, it may replace food - but a Jem'Hadar can still eat, as shown in "The Abandoned". It thus still sounds much more like heroin than one might want to admit. As for the need to sleep, it simply need not be built into the Jem'Hadar to begin with - there's no indication that the White would somehow "supply" sleep, or a substitute of sleep.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marie1]

I found it odd that she had to stand trial too- it was just part of the terms Odo came up with in WYLB. At the end, she stood trial and "answered for her crimes"- probably because the war was premeditated.

The feds didn't commit genocide- section 31 did- thats not the same as the whole Dominion's goal. They wanted to commit genocide vs the Bajorans, Cardassians, Romulans (presumably) and even wipe out earth. They killed millions... someone had to have some kind of "punishment" tho I to do not consider the Feds innocent due to the points you mentioned. The AQ were violating the Dominion's territory, and sat by during the OO/TS attack, and didn't help Bashir find the cure to the disease, for instance.

You're wrong about the White tho- remember the Abandoned- the Jem'Hadar ate when he was young- when he grew up- he got sick when he ate. If you don't need food, and if you get sick when you eat, and you can take something so you don't have to eat, then you don't eat.

And they don't sleep- as said by a Jem'Hadar in "To the Death" "the white is the only thing we need" "we don't sleep" and he also said the Jem'Hadar do not eat.

Its is necessary for them to survive, and replaces the need to eat and sleep so they can fight without stopping, serve without taking time to sleep or get hungry. It is not like a heroin addiction that is outside necessity.

So we have canon references from the Jem'Hadar that they don't need food or sleep if they're on the white, and all but one so far is. Tho no, the young don't need it til they grow into adults at just over a couple weeks of age. Say 2 and a half.

 

[Myasishchev]

Or we could say that the Son'a were master chemists, were contracted to do KW for the Dominion, and after the war discovered new and profitable narcotic uses for the stuff. Or then they modified the stuff, so that there now exists standard KW, narcotic KW, stimulating KW, and perhaps also Ketracel Green, Ketracel Yellow and Ketracel Light for the aware and discriminating consumer.

Timo Saloniemi

Ketracel Green is made of B'aku. IT'S MADE OF B'AKU!

I'll bow to your superior wisdom on the timeframe, although they do mention Worf is still stationed on DS9, right?

As an alternative, if we want to speculate it did take place during the war, there might have been two Son'a factions, one led by Rufao the B'aku exile and another, proper Son'a homeworld and empire, from which the original B'aku settlers hailed. Hey, maybe the other faction was even interesting!

 

[Marie1]

LOL!! Made of B'aku...

I thought they had it lined up so that Worf was still on DS9. MA says "Commander Worf, on leave from starbase Deep Space Nine" so he was still stationed there.
INS took place in 2375, and according to MA again, it is between DS9 "It's only a Paper Moon" and "Prodigal Daughter." So it took place during the Dominion War... huh... Troi herself wondered why the Feds were having anything to do with them... maybe just because of the corrupt admiral?

 

[Timo]

...Of course, no canon source ever confirmed that Worf left DS9 at the end of the series. I mean, Ambassador? Worf probably turned down the assignment right after getting over his V-Day hangover... "I agreed to what?!"

Even if Worf did accept the diplomatic posting, it would probably take some time to get through the bureaucracy. The Diplomatic Corps would be quite busy, as the movie states, and even if Martok cut the red tape (and other things) at the Klingon end, Worf might still end up spending a few months on DS9 packing his stuff. And getting all itchy about leaving. And taking any possible alternate assignment he could get...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marie1]

Well, I'd like to accept Vira'kara's words when it comes to the White...

Didn't we "see" Worf leaving at the end of WYLB? Tho if I were him... I'd go do something more exciting... I guess Martok's his friend though.