The Way of the Warrior reminded me of the Afghanistan.

[Red Ranger]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

Ostracized?
How so?
Has anything bad happened to those who are against the war?

Well, speaking as one who DID oppose going into Afghanistan and Iraq both, I can tell you YES.

So many people seem to have already forgotten what it was like back then - it is really incredible. So many people seem to have already fortotten that whole With us/Against us mentality that Dubya and his cronies nurtured and exploited in this country.

I live in a decidedly Red State...and let me tell you - life was NOT easy for opponents of the war in Afghanistan here in good old Georgia. I lost a JOB due to the fact that I would not support the war and would not contribute to Dubya's re-election campaign in my workplace. I lost friends here because I did not vote for Dubya either time. Keep in mind here - I never disrespected our troops - I just opposed the war and the Commander-in-Chief's manipulations which got us into it.

So yes - bad things DID happen to those of us who opposed the war. And I blame it 100% on our juvenile frat-boy of a President who purposefully tried to stifle freedom of thought in this country by implying that anyone who didn't agree with him (that would have been ME) was at best, unpatriotic...and at worst a terrorist sympathizer. He claimed that opposing the war was not supporting our troops, when nothing could have been further from the truth. I support our troops - in fact, the #1 way of supporting our troops, as far as I'm concerned, is to not send them into wars fought for personal agendas...and to not get them killed unnecessarily. I support our troops by, first and foremost, respecting their LIVES. But yet, I was ostracized as an unpatriotic peacenik. Thanks to Dubya.

With a President like that, what did you expect his supporters to do to people like me?

If you want to know if bad things happened to those who opposed the war, just ask the Dixie Chicks. Opposition to Dubya's war almost destroyed their career (not to mention the death threats, the CD burnings, and all the other drama). And no one took greater delight in any of that than Dubya himself - Defender of Freedom and Liberty.

PKTrekGirl:

Thanks for posting this. I live in a blue state, but I have gotten in to heated arguments with supporters of the Iraq war as well. There are plenty of supporters in my home state, but I also lived in a red state -- Tennessee -- for a few years, so I can support your argument that those people who believe, "My country, right or wrong," can be pretty intolerant, it's true.

BTW, I found it interesting that Odo's Bucket posted pics that are obviously years old -- I think from shortly after the troops landed in Iraq -- but I daresay he'd have trouble finding lots of pics like that today. True, we've had the Sunni Awakening, and they've decided in their self-interest to cooperate with the U.S.

It's that whole phony argument from neocons that we'd be greeted as liberators. Hows's that working for you now, Wolfowitz? These folks shouldn't try to be Nostradamus -- they're not suited for it!

Red Ranger

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

I wonder if the Klingons were greeted as Liberators?

If not in season four when they were pretending that there was anything to liberate but still took over outposts and planets mainting thier occupation, then what about in season seven after the helped drive the Founders off Cardassia?

Of course that all really depends on how long they stayed to help clean up and rebuild? Klingon engineers building bridges and purifying poisoned waterways? That just doesn't sound right.

Rocking out till the planet run out of comfort women and kanar? That's a bit more like it.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

PKTrekGirl:

Thanks for posting this. I live in a blue state, but I have gotten in to heated arguments with supporters of the Iraq war as well. There are plenty of supporters in my home state, but I also lived in a red state -- Tennessee -- for a few years, so I can support your argument that those people who believe, "My country, right or wrong," can be pretty intolerant, it's true.

BTW, I found it interesting that Odo's Bucket posted pics that are obviously years old -- I think from shortly after the troops landed in Iraq -- but I daresay he'd have trouble finding lots of pics like that today. True, we've had the Sunni Awakening, and they've decided in their self-interest to cooperate with the U.S.

It's that whole phony argument from neocons that we'd be greeted as liberators. Hows's that working for you now, Wolfowitz? These folks shouldn't try to be Nostradamus -- they're not suited for it!

Red Ranger

Well, I can't speak about the age of Odo's Bucket's pictures. He'd have to address that himself. I do think that since none of us were there and he was, we need to cut the guy some slack - his perceptions from being on the ground are personal to him and we need to respect that and try to understand (although it is impossible to do so) what it must have been like over there.

In short...I don't think any of us who have never fought in a war really understand what that means and what it does to a person. So I'd like to hope that those of us who have never done so would cut those of us who have some slack. Especially here in the DS9 forum...where the gritty and non-glorious side of war has been explored at some length over the years.

That said, I can't say as I will EVER get over my resentment of this President. Not only because of the tone he set from the top - a tone which utilized fear to create a 'with us or against us mentality' which he exploited for personal political gain at the expense of the lives, livelihoods, and the relationships between the citizens of this country...but also (and more importantly) because, based on false pretenses fabricated for personal political and monetary gain, he willfully and intentionally sent into battle 4,000 young men and women, all of whom never got to really live their lives before they were tragically cut short for no good reason.

Talk about 'supporting our troops'! We have a President who didn't even value their young lives! At least not as much as he valued daddy's vendettas and the profits to be made via the oil reserves of the Middle East.

I respect anyone who went over there and fought those wars. But I will never respect the Commander-in-Chief who sent them over there.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

And he's out in a couple weeks.

Not that it's going to happen, but exactly how quickly could Obama withdraw all the American forces if he decided it was the right thing to do? George didn't exactly start these wars legally, and congress has to pass a vote every "period of some length I can't recall" to ratify the continuation of hostilities(Or is it pay for hostilities?)... But will President Obama have the power to cease Hostilities immediately? Y'Know, fall of Saigon style, just bug out over night and leave half a million jeeps behind?

Gowron was fighting the war to win political points back home at the expense of resources and tactical dominance. So Worf killed him and Martok, cut the shit and did what needed to be done to win the war propperly and effectively and finally in merely a handful of episodes.

Is Ira psychic?

 

[Red Ranger]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

PKTrekGirl:

Thanks for posting this. I live in a blue state, but I have gotten in to heated arguments with supporters of the Iraq war as well. There are plenty of supporters in my home state, but I also lived in a red state -- Tennessee -- for a few years, so I can support your argument that those people who believe, "My country, right or wrong," can be pretty intolerant, it's true.

BTW, I found it interesting that Odo's Bucket posted pics that are obviously years old -- I think from shortly after the troops landed in Iraq -- but I daresay he'd have trouble finding lots of pics like that today. True, we've had the Sunni Awakening, and they've decided in their self-interest to cooperate with the U.S.

It's that whole phony argument from neocons that we'd be greeted as liberators. Hows's that working for you now, Wolfowitz? These folks shouldn't try to be Nostradamus -- they're not suited for it!

Red Ranger

Well, I can't speak about the age of Odo's Bucket's pictures. He'd have to address that himself. I do think that since none of us were there and he was, we need to cut the guy some slack - his perceptions from being on the ground are personal to him and we need to respect that and try to understand (although it is impossible to do so) what it must have been like over there.

In short...I don't think any of us who have never fought in a war really understand what that means and what it does to a person. So I'd like to hope that those of us who have never done so would cut those of us who have some slack. Especially here in the DS9 forum...where the gritty and non-glorious side of war has been explored at some length over the years.

That said, I can't say as I will EVER get over my resentment of this President. Not only because of the tone he set from the top - a tone which utilized fear to create a 'with us or against us mentality' which he exploited for personal political gain at the expense of the lives, livelihoods, and the relationships between the citizens of this country...but also (and more importantly) because, based on false pretenses fabricated for personal political and monetary gain, he willfully and intentionally sent into battle 4,000 young men and women, all of whom never got to really live their lives before they were tragically cut short for no good reason.

Talk about 'supporting our troops'! We have a President who didn't even value their young lives! At least not as much as he valued daddy's vendettas and the profits to be made via the oil reserves of the Middle East.

I respect anyone who went over there and fought those wars. But I will never respect the Commander-in-Chief who sent them over there.

PKTrekGirl:

I pretty much concur with your reply. I think too often people think those like you and I, who criticize the war, have trouble understanding how we can support the troops but not the particular war. It's nonsense, and as you correctly point out, the war hysteria Bush helped whip up is responsible for this knee-jerk "my country right or wrong" stuff.

I do want to point out that it's not just eyewitness accounts from folks like Odo's Bucket that count, but the journalists and war correspondents embedded with the troops. They saw many of the things our friiend Odo saw, but have the job of interviewing as many sources as possible to get the full story. So those accounts, showing a more complicated picture of the reality on the ground, should be considered.

Red Ranger

 

[Cyke101]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

I wonder if the Klingons were greeted as Liberators?

I don't think the Klingons ever had that big a pretension.

In my honest opinion, the Klingons probably had more justification to attack Cardassia than we had to go into Iraq. And even then the Klingons were proven wrong anyway.

 

[Photon]

Typically clueless lefties

 

[DonIago]

^What a delightful and substantive contribution to the discussion.

 

[Photon]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

PKTrekGirl:

Thanks for posting this. I live in a blue state, but I have gotten in to heated arguments with supporters of the Iraq war as well. There are plenty of supporters in my home state, but I also lived in a red state -- Tennessee -- for a few years, so I can support your argument that those people who believe, "My country, right or wrong," can be pretty intolerant, it's true.

BTW, I found it interesting that Odo's Bucket posted pics that are obviously years old -- I think from shortly after the troops landed in Iraq -- but I daresay he'd have trouble finding lots of pics like that today. True, we've had the Sunni Awakening, and they've decided in their self-interest to cooperate with the U.S.

It's that whole phony argument from neocons that we'd be greeted as liberators. Hows's that working for you now, Wolfowitz? These folks shouldn't try to be Nostradamus -- they're not suited for it!

Red Ranger

Well, I can't speak about the age of Odo's Bucket's pictures. He'd have to address that himself. I do think that since none of us were there and he was, we need to cut the guy some slack - his perceptions from being on the ground are personal to him and we need to respect that and try to understand (although it is impossible to do so) what it must have been like over there.

In short...I don't think any of us who have never fought in a war really understand what that means and what it does to a person. So I'd like to hope that those of us who have never done so would cut those of us who have some slack. Especially here in the DS9 forum...where the gritty and non-glorious side of war has been explored at some length over the years.

That said, I can't say as I will EVER get over my resentment of this President. Not only because of the tone he set from the top - a tone which utilized fear to create a 'with us or against us mentality' which he exploited for personal political gain at the expense of the lives, livelihoods, and the relationships between the citizens of this country...but also (and more importantly) because, based on false pretenses fabricated for personal political and monetary gain, he willfully and intentionally sent into battle 4,000 young men and women, all of whom never got to really live their lives before they were tragically cut short for no good reason.

Talk about 'supporting our troops'! We have a President who didn't even value their young lives! At least not as much as he valued daddy's vendettas and the profits to be made via the oil reserves of the Middle East.

I respect anyone who went over there and fought those wars. But I will never respect the Commander-in-Chief who sent them over there.

I usually agree w/you Trek Girl but not here
I gotta a 20 that says Obama(the anointed messiah of the left) the he looks at the intel and thinks, damn Bush was right. Now how am I gonna explain this to all the wild-eyed, peace at all costs crowd whom elected me. Crap I promised these ppl we'd get out.

According to even the best laid plans, it'll take at least 2 years to get all the equipment out of the country. This is if everything goes smoothly, I doubt this happens. The terrorist are undoubtedly laying low and waiting for the dove's administration to come in. If I'm wrong, I'll man up and apologize.
One thing, like Reagan, history will judge Bush to be a far better president that the left-controlled press is presently judging him.

Fire away, lefties, fire away

 

[Red Ranger]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

PKTrekGirl:

Thanks for posting this. I live in a blue state, but I have gotten in to heated arguments with supporters of the Iraq war as well. There are plenty of supporters in my home state, but I also lived in a red state -- Tennessee -- for a few years, so I can support your argument that those people who believe, "My country, right or wrong," can be pretty intolerant, it's true.

BTW, I found it interesting that Odo's Bucket posted pics that are obviously years old -- I think from shortly after the troops landed in Iraq -- but I daresay he'd have trouble finding lots of pics like that today. True, we've had the Sunni Awakening, and they've decided in their self-interest to cooperate with the U.S.

It's that whole phony argument from neocons that we'd be greeted as liberators. Hows's that working for you now, Wolfowitz? These folks shouldn't try to be Nostradamus -- they're not suited for it!

Red Ranger

Well, I can't speak about the age of Odo's Bucket's pictures. He'd have to address that himself. I do think that since none of us were there and he was, we need to cut the guy some slack - his perceptions from being on the ground are personal to him and we need to respect that and try to understand (although it is impossible to do so) what it must have been like over there.

In short...I don't think any of us who have never fought in a war really understand what that means and what it does to a person. So I'd like to hope that those of us who have never done so would cut those of us who have some slack. Especially here in the DS9 forum...where the gritty and non-glorious side of war has been explored at some length over the years.

That said, I can't say as I will EVER get over my resentment of this President. Not only because of the tone he set from the top - a tone which utilized fear to create a 'with us or against us mentality' which he exploited for personal political gain at the expense of the lives, livelihoods, and the relationships between the citizens of this country...but also (and more importantly) because, based on false pretenses fabricated for personal political and monetary gain, he willfully and intentionally sent into battle 4,000 young men and women, all of whom never got to really live their lives before they were tragically cut short for no good reason.

Talk about 'supporting our troops'! We have a President who didn't even value their young lives! At least not as much as he valued daddy's vendettas and the profits to be made via the oil reserves of the Middle East.

I respect anyone who went over there and fought those wars. But I will never respect the Commander-in-Chief who sent them over there.

I usually agree w/you Trek Girl but not here
I gotta a 20 that says Obama(the anointed messiah of the left) the he looks at the intel and thinks, damn Bush was right. Now how am I gonna explain this to all the wild-eyed, peace at all costs crowd whom elected me. Crap I promised these ppl we'd get out.

According to even the best laid plans, it'll take at least 2 years to get all the equipment out of the country. This is if everything goes smoothly, I doubt this happens. The terrorist are undoubtedly laying low and waiting for the dove's administration to come in. If I'm wrong, I'll man up and apologize.
One thing, like Reagan, history will judge Bush to be a far better president that the left-controlled press is presently judging him.

Fire away, lefties, fire away

O, Photon, Photon, Photon,

Like all righties who are sore losers over the latest election, you engage in personal attacks to hide the fact that the conservative and neo-con agendas are discredited and in tatters. That's not just me talking, but your soulmates on the right lamenting your recent election losses at the RNC and at right-wing think tanks.

"Anointed messiah of the left." Oh, please! I know that as president, Obama will govern more from the center, and I'm OK with that as a life-long Democrat. Will there be leftists (not lefties) that disagree? Sure. But there are people on the right, some on this board, who say Dubya wasn't conservative.

History will judge Bush a failed president. When he had the good will of the American people and the world, he should have finished the job in Afghanistan. Instead, he embarked on this ill-advised adventure in Iraq based on falsified intel and an agenda pushed by neo-cons that has proven to be reckless and wrong.

The U.S. wasn't greeted as liberators -- not for long, anyway -- and the Iraq invasion has made the world more dangerous, and has given the Islamo-fascists good recruitment footage, leading them to claim the "infidels" are running amok in their land -- Baghdad, Saudi Arabia, other areas.

I'm enjoying the ineffectual sputterings of sore loser conservatives now that the Republicans are in exile. Hooray!

One more thing: The left-controlled press is a right-wing bogeyman. It doesn't exist, any more than does the Tooth Fairy. I worked in the media and I know better than you that those with real power in the media tend to be centrist or right-of-center, and real leftists aren't.

Red Ranger

 

[Red Ranger]

^What a delightful and substantive contribution to the discussion.

Yeah, they got nothing, DonIago! Nothing! No ideas and no clue! -- RR

 

[Cyke101]

Well, this discussion isn't helping our troops one bit.

(On a side note, I've never seen, heard, read, or met a leftist refer to Obama as the Messiah. What gives?)

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

PKTrekGirl:

I pretty much concur with your reply. I think too often people think those like you and I, who criticize the war, have trouble understanding how we can support the troops but not the particular war. It's nonsense, and as you correctly point out, the war hysteria Bush helped whip up is responsible for this knee-jerk "my country right or wrong" stuff.

I do want to point out that it's not just eyewitness accounts from folks like Odo's Bucket that count, but the journalists and war correspondents embedded with the troops. They saw many of the things our friiend Odo saw, but have the job of interviewing as many sources as possible to get the full story. So those accounts, showing a more complicated picture of the reality on the ground, should be considered.

Red Ranger

Oh...don't get me wrong. I don't think that the guys on the ground should be the exclusive source of truth. Not by a long shot!

Now, I don't have a great amount of respect for the press anymore - I don't believe there are many true-blue legitimate journalists any longer. They are all biased one way or another, as are all of the networks. And so, much like the politicians themselves, are quite often about their right or left wing agendas - NOT the unbiased truth.

Further, I agree with Jon Stewart - the press these days is nothing but a bunch of cowards. If they had guts, for example, they would have shown the coffins coming off those planes from Iraq. I was a small child during the end of the Vietnam War, and I can tell you that I remember those coffins coming off the planes from 'Nam quite vividly. I was too young to understand all the details of the Tet Offensive or whatever...but I sure as HELL understood those coffins coming off the planes every night on Walter Cronkite. Back then, the press felt like they had a responsibility to show us the truth - not sugar coat anything or sanitize anything. Back during 'Nam, we understood war was hell - it was not some near-imaginary and much glorified thing that was sanitized for our protection by the 6 pm news.

However, I do think that you are right in that the news accounts need to be taken into account. The soldiers coming back are not the only legitimate source either.

The comments I made about Odo's Bucket were really more because there was much criticism leveled at the guy for taking things personally in this thread. But as I see it, anyone who was actually over there - and NOT watching it sanitized for our protection by FOX News or CNN - would HAVE to be taking this thread personally. Because the events of that war ARE personal to such a person. It's not an abstraction to a soldier. It's something they lived.

And for that reason, I was asking folks to cut the guy some slack on the issue of taking things in this thread personally.

I was NOT saying that Odo's account was the only source of the truth - or even A source of the absolute truth, for that matter. His posts are still (and always have been) open for rebuttal, just like anyone else's. All I was saying is that his experiences with the war are personal...and we need to take that into account before coming down on him for taking things personally.

 

[Cyke101]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

[
Oh...don't get me wrong. I don't think that the guys on the ground should be the exclusive source of truth. Not by a long shot!

Just to add: I don't think the guys on the ground should be excluded from the truth, either... whether they're misled by the media as a whole (FOX and CNN, as you pointed out) or by our elected officials (well, primarily the latter).

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

I usually agree w/you Trek Girl but not here
I gotta a 20 that says Obama(the anointed messiah of the left) the he looks at the intel and thinks, damn Bush was right. Now how am I gonna explain this to all the wild-eyed, peace at all costs crowd whom elected me. Crap I promised these ppl we'd get out.

According to even the best laid plans, it'll take at least 2 years to get all the equipment out of the country. This is if everything goes smoothly, I doubt this happens. The terrorist are undoubtedly laying low and waiting for the dove's administration to come in. If I'm wrong, I'll man up and apologize.
One thing, like Reagan, history will judge Bush to be a far better president that the left-controlled press is presently judging him.

Fire away, lefties, fire away

Photon - I think you have made an incorrect assumption here. Or really, a few, actually.

First, I am NOT an Obama supporter. Actually, I voted for McCain.

Second, I am NOT a fan of getting out of Iraq by the end of January or anything like that. Now, I was not a fan of going IN to Iraq...but now that we are there and we stirred up a bunch of shit in their country, we have an obligation to the Iraqi people. I do NOT believe it is responsible for us to go "Well, we know we came in and fucked up your country, dropped a shitload of bombs, got the natives all restless, and destroyed your infrastructure...but oh well! We're tired of this boring and expensive war and so we're out of here! Have fun fixing the mess we are leaving you! Have a nice fucking day! And remember - the USA loves YOU!"

We never should have gone in to Iraq. We had no business doing so when peaceful means of resolving differences were still open to us. And I don't for a moment believe that they really thought there was WMD there - we who opposed the war asked for the proof and were told "Oh yeah...we have PROOF - we just can't tell you about it". That was a LIE, as we have seen. An unforgivable lie that has cost 4,000 young Americans their lives. And nothing anyone can say now can sugar coat it. Those of us opposed to the war - who demanded proof - were LIED to. Plain and simple.

And no...I don't believe that shit about 'bad intelligence'. You either have photos or you don't. You either have proof or you don't. You do NOT start a fucking WAR based on rumors.

But anyway, I believe that now that we are there and we have fucked up their country, we can't abandon them.

So I am NOT one of those Obama supporters who wants to drop the Iraqi people on their heads with a "Fuck this! We're out of here!" mentality either. I believe we need to put a time limit on it - say, given them a year to get their shit together before we pack up our crap and come home. But I don't believe we need to exit post haste, and in fact believe it would be irresponsible for us to do so, given that we started that fucking war.

That said, I have to say I don't agree with you on how history will view Dubya. I believe history will view Dubya as a liar who got us into a war to serve his own personal agendas - his father's grudge match, the lure of oil dollars for his buddies in Texas, and the continued ability to manipulate the electorate through fear (just in time for the 2004 election). I believe history will portray a man who, like McCarthy back in the 50's, used fear and hate to manipulate and maintain control over the people and push through some of the most draconian legislation (hint: the Patriot Act) ever to come down the pike - legislation that did more damage to Civil Liberties (ie. FREEDOM!) than anything since the Communist witch hunts of the 50's. I believe history will reveal a man of below average intelligence who was little more than a puppet for others (Cheney, Rumsfeld and that whole cabal) who never in a million years could have been elected themselves because they are clearly Just That Evil. I believe history will reveal a man who made us into chumps for Big Oil - which had the best 8 years that industry has had for a VERY long time (I believe thanks to Bush and his unwillingness to look into those record profits posted quarter after quarter by his pals in Huston)...while the rest of the country suffered two recessions in the same 8 year time frame and most citizens are MUCH LESS well off than when Clinton left the White House.

I believe that history will reveal a man who, through his own utter ineptitude and monumental incompetence, blundered his way though not one, but TWO national disasters - 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina. Here you had the Mayor of NYC, who was in the middle of a city in chaos and who had lost much of his communications infrastructure (not to mention many police and firefighters), keeping the country together while our Village Idiot President sat on a kindergarten stage like a deer in headlights and then ran for the bunkers to hide. And here you had a President who patted that idiot FEMA Director on the back while New Orleans was underwater and people were DYING in the Superdome because no one could figure out the mystifying mechanics behind (DUH!) sending in choppers loaded with food and water for drops into the dome area.

And lets not even get into the whole issue of prisoner abuse and torture at Gitmo and the not-so-secret secret rent-a-prison gulags in Eastern Europe.

In short, I believe that history will reveal Dubya to be one of the absolute worst presidents EVER in the history of this country.

And I say that as a person who voted for Ronald Reagan and John McCain.
(also voted for Bill Clinton though - just to be fair. I'm really a moderate, for the most part. )

IMO, the guy is 2 parts boarderline-retarded boob, 1 part Satan's spawn.

 

[aelius]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

And he's out in a couple weeks.

Not that it's going to happen, but exactly how quickly could Obama withdraw all the American forces if he decided it was the right thing to do? George didn't exactly start these wars legally, and congress has to pass a vote every "period of some length I can't recall" to ratify the continuation of hostilities(Or is it pay for hostilities?)... But will President Obama have the power to cease Hostilities immediately? Y'Know, fall of Saigon style, just bug out over night and leave half a million jeeps behind?

Obama could order troops home 10 seconds after he takes the oath of office if he want's to. That's where the title Commander in Chief comes in. And no, congress does not have to pass a vote every now and then to ratify continuation of hostilities. The only power congress has over that is funding. The War Powers Act, passed by congeress during the Vietnam conflict is supposed to give congress the power to override the president, but congress has never tried to use because it is unconstitutional and they dont want to look silly by telling the president to do something and having him point out that the Constitution gives him the authority to make that decision and not them.
If the congress wishes to stop a conflict the only constitutional method for doing so is to vote to cut off funding (this is what happened in Vietnam). That would be very controversial politacally because it could look like bailing out on the troops, which is why the Democrats did not push that when they took control of congress in '06.
I doubt Obama will actually pull the troops out of Iraq because the war is effectively won. We turned over control of the Green Zone to Iraqi security on new years day, and our troops are now there to support the Iraqi's instead of fighting the war. Will there be more fighting, yes. But we will now be supporting Iraqi ops instead of the other way around.
Over time we will draw down our forces, and redeploy them to Afghanistan to focus on the Taliban.

 

[Red Ranger]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

PKTrekGirl, et al.,

I want to be clear on a few things about where I stand on Iraq, too. I don't favor an immediate withdrawal. I do favor the measured approach Obama has articulated -- we have to be just as careful getting out of Iraq as we were getting in. Obviously, I voted for Obama, as a life-long Democrat, but also someone fed up with the mismanagement of the war and the economy, brought to you by the GOP.

Also, I do understand what you're saying about Odo's Bucket. Of course he's going to take it personally. But there are other soldiers who've come back with a different view of the war that doesn't agree with our friend's. Does that make their opinions any less valid? Some of them ran for Congress as Democrats.

I think we need to keep that in perspective -- it's a large world, with large ranges of opinions.

And I do agree wholeheartedly with your analysis of why Bush will be looked on unfavorably, on balance, by historians, for the mess he's made in the past 8 years.

Red Ranger

 

[BorgPhil]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

I love the army guy who says that the american president is the most important person in the world, and only he is qualified to talk about the iraq war because he has been there. this sums up why America is so hated around the world.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

Also, I do understand what you're saying about Odo's Bucket. Of course he's going to take it personally. But there are other soldiers who've come back with a different view of the war that doesn't agree with our friend's. Does that make their opinions any less valid? Some of them ran for Congress as Democrats.

I think we need to keep that in perspective -- it's a large world, with large ranges of opinions.

Oh...I fully agree. Odo's Bucket voiced only one solider's opinion. Other soldiers might have completely different opinions - all of them equally valid and more than welcome here in this discussion.

My 'mod comment', once again, was directed solely to the issue of Odo's Bucket taking this discussion personally. He took it personally because it WAS personal to him. As it would be to ANY soldier who'd fought over there. Including soldiers with opinions the polar opposite of Odo's Bucket.

Again, I'm not saying Odo's Bucket is right and that everything he said is the objective gospel truth, just because he fought over there. All I was ever saying is that we can't expect him (or any other solider) to NOT take this discussion personally. So we need to cut him (and every other solider) a bit of slack before we jump on them for 'taking this personally'.

And I do agree wholeheartedly with your analysis of why Bush will be looked on unfavorably, on balance, by historians, for the mess he's made in the past 8 years.

Heh. One of the most horrendous messes ever.

I do not envy Obama one little bit. Talk about inheriting a room full of dirty dishes.

 

[Red Ranger]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

Also, I do understand what you're saying about Odo's Bucket. Of course he's going to take it personally. But there are other soldiers who've come back with a different view of the war that doesn't agree with our friend's. Does that make their opinions any less valid? Some of them ran for Congress as Democrats.

I think we need to keep that in perspective -- it's a large world, with large ranges of opinions.

Oh...I fully agree. Odo's Bucket voiced only one solider's opinion. Other soldiers might have completely different opinions - all of them equally valid and more than welcome here in this discussion.

My 'mod comment', once again, was directed solely to the issue of Odo's Bucket taking this discussion personally. He took it personally because it WAS personal to him. As it would be to ANY soldier who'd fought over there. Including soldiers with opinions the polar opposite of Odo's Bucket.

Again, I'm not saying Odo's Bucket is right and that everything he said is the objective gospel truth, just because he fought over there. All I was ever saying is that we can't expect him (or any other solider) to NOT take this discussion personally. So we need to cut him (and every other solider) a bit of slack before we jump on them for 'taking this personally'.

And I do agree wholeheartedly with your analysis of why Bush will be looked on unfavorably, on balance, by historians, for the mess he's made in the past 8 years.

Heh. One of the most horrendous messes ever.

I do not envy Obama one little bit. Talk about inheriting a room full of dirty dishes.

Well said, PKTrekGirl. I also don't envy Obama -- in four years, his hair will be just as white as Bush's, I'm afraid. -- RR