The Way of the Warrior reminded me of the Afghanistan.

[Sci]

But what you witnessed isn't necessarily representative of the whole of Iraq either.

No. You're completely right. When I was there I didn't see what was going on. I stood in one spot the entire year. I didn't convoy all over the country or anything like that. I didn't run missions everywhere between Kuwait and Mosul. No we stayed in one tiny spot.

Give me a break. See this is exactly what I was talking about. You know more about my experiences than I do.

No one said that. What we did say is that anecdotal evidence and personal experience are simply not always going to be accurate barometers of the general opinions of a nation of over 29 million people.

So, yes, I have more faith in a poll than I do in the experience of any one person. That doesn't mean I'm accusing you of lying, that doesn't mean that you're not accurately reporting your experience of Iraq. It just means that no one person's experience is going to be an accurate measurement of these things.

Amongst other things, for instance, has it not occurred to you that the average Iraqi may think it prudent to tell a member of the foreign army that he regards as occupying his country what he presumes that soldier wants to hear? You may have been lied to on multiple occasions, for instance.

And the fact that you're incapable of framing this discussion as anything other than a personal attack on you is not something that makes me inclined to take anything you say seriously, frankly. Having a uniform doesn't make acting like an egotistical prick any more acceptable.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

No one said that. What we did say is that anecdotal evidence and personal experience are simply not always going to be accurate barometers of the general opinions of a nation of over 29 million people.

No, I was dismissed entirely and assumed to be inaccurate.

So, yes, I have more faith in a poll than I do in the experience of any one person.

A poll that is out of date and potentially biased. So you believe the word of someone who 'took a poll' but not of a soldier who's been on the front lines. Ok. Polls are always right - because everyone is included and not just those that can sway the poll in favor of a certain opinion. Everyone knows that.

That doesn't mean I'm accusing you of lying,

Yes. Yes you are. You're claiming the poll is more believable.

that doesn't mean that you're not accurately reporting your experience of Iraq.

It just means you choose to assume I'm wrong even though you have no personal point of comparison. How interesting.

It just means that no one person's experience is going to be an accurate measurement of these things.

I guess an outdated poll is though, because polls are always 100% accurate.

Amongst other things, for instance, has it not occurred to you that the average Iraqi may think it prudent to tell a member of the foreign army that he regards as occupying his country what he presumes that soldier wants to hear? You may have been lied to on multiple occasions, for instance.

These were the same people that were telling us where suspected terrorists were hiding and pointing out I.E.D. 's to us after having watched them being placed. I'm inclined to believe them when they say they don't hate me for being there.

And the fact that you're incapable of framing this discussion as anything other than a personal attack on you is not something that makes me inclined to take anything you say seriously, frankly. Having a uniform doesn't make acting like an egotistical prick any more acceptable.

Talk about personal attacks. It seems like you dislike what I have to say because I wore a uniform. It also sounds like the reason you choose not to believe what I say. An example of everything I've been saying.

I'll try to find you a poll that was taken six or so years ago by some reporter in a tie, to show the reliability of a soldier's words. I'm sure it will be 100% accurate.

 

[Sci]

Talk about personal attacks. It seems like you dislike what I have to say because I wore a uniform.

No, I'm just pissed that you're choosing to take this all as a personal attack. Guess what? I didn't say a word of criticism about you until I pointed out that you chose to take criticism of your argument as a personal attack. You have as much of a persecution complex as Guy Gardner, and you're both incredibly tiresome for it.

Here's a clue: If I say that I don't believe that your experience was representative of what most Iraqis think, that's not an accusation of dishonesty on your part. It is, as I've said above, an evaluation how how representative one person's experiences can be given that there are 29 million people in Iraq. I have absolutely no problem believing that most of the people you talked to support US troop presence in Iraq -- but I also have no trouble believing that that could just be your experience, and not what most Iraqis think. There's a such thing as standard deviations from the mean, after all.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Odo's bucket, no one hates you or your opinion, and we're all on pretty tight leashes that it takes a bit of cajoling for one of us to snap and get personal or vulgar because we know the consequences. It's really not worth it.

Last time I met a soldier on his way back for a term of service, he brokedown crying saying that he didn't want to go back and how it wasn't fair. He was a little bit drunk too, but every soldier has a story and there's no reason to think any of them ain't worth listening to.

Wikipedia told me some interesting a couple hours ago. Apparently America handed operational control of Afghanistan over to NATO some 3 years ago around about the same time the CIA shut down it's Hunt Osama department. Nato is of course singularly concerned with building a country rather than hunting that madman as it applies the American manpower at it's disposal.

Wow.

The US troops are just being a donkey to NATOs lead as far as the reconstruction goes, well it seems that the guys in charge severed responsibility while leaving troops in harms way... Which sounds like Gowron reaffirming the Khitomer accords in by inferno's light once he accepted he was in over his head, to allow the federation to take operational control of the frontlines and DS9 to serve as a joint command and control so he didn't have to make a stand in his front yard.

It's not a completely accurate comparrison, but it is still spooky as hell.

 

[Red Ranger]

What annoys me is when people like Odo's Bucket challenge people's opposition to the war just because he was there and we weren't. C'mon, pal! That's a facile argument. I do want to thank you for your service, all the more so because your efforts would have been better served helping to finish the job in Afghanistan.

What's beyond dispute is that it was Osama bin Laden who was primarily responsible for the 9/11 attacks, so the U.S.'s initial response, attacking Afghanistan, was justifiable.

However, all the fabrications involved in invading Iraq -- falsified intel out the wazoo, like the b.s. about Saddam Hussein trying to acquire Uranium cake from Niger, the so-called weapons of mass destruction -- all ginned up to justify the Bush Doctrine. Many have arrived at this conclusion, including the bi-partisan 9/11 Commission.

Was Saddam Hussein a foe of the U.S.? Certainly. Did he want to bask in the glow of 9/11 by posing for those billboards you saw in Iraq? Probably. Posing in such billboards doesn't mean he had anything to do with 9/11, so you've arrived at a false conclusion.

The U.S. needed to finish the job in Afghanistan before creating this mess in Iraq, which has helped the terrorists recruitment drives and has inadvertenly strengthened Iran's power in the region.

Guy, I do see more parallels to the Klingon invasion of Cardassia and the U.S.'s invasion of Iraq.

I hate war, but the U.S. was attacked on 9/11. We needed to go after bin Laden. Yes, the U.S. has done some despicable, undemocratic things in the name of freedom, but that doesn't justify the Islamo-fascists to commit mass murder, no matter how much they agitate based on the U.S.'s past actions.

Red Ranger

 

[DonIago]

(Oops...this was to be posted after Sci's post)

Exactly.

There's no reason to interpret skepticism as a personal attack upon one's beliefs, and in fact doing so often only damages what credibility you have to begin with. For instance, an acknowledgement that what I'd said had _some_ legitimacy rather than a sarcastic rejoinder would have made me far less likely to dismiss this entire discussion as probably pointless.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

and yes, before you even mention it, a large majority of the Iraqi people are bilingual and understand, speak, and write English very well.

 

[Sci]

and yes, before you even mention it, a large majority of the Iraqi people are bilingual and understand, speak, and write English very well.

Odo's Bucket, no one's questioning that a large percentage of Iraq's population does support US troop presence, nor that a majority of Iraqis are happy that Saddam is gone. Even if support for US troop presence was only at 30%, 30% is a large number. Showing photographs of it doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

What we're arguing is that the available polling data indicates that they're not a majority or a plurality, and that when we cite that evidence, we are not personally attacking you or your honesty. Got it?

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

and yes, before you even mention it, a large majority of the Iraqi people are bilingual and understand, speak, and write English very well.

Odo's Bucket, no one's questioning that a large percentage of Iraq's population does support US troop presence, nor that a majority of Iraqis are happy that Saddam is gone. Even if support for US troop presence was only at 30%, 30% is a large number. Showing photographs of it doesn't prove anything one way or the other.

What we're arguing is that the available polling data indicates that they're not a majority or a plurality, and that when we cite that evidence, we are not personally attacking you or your honesty. Got it?

The only, single time I mentioned anything about 'personal attacks' was when you called me a prick. You guys are the ones who keep mentioning it. I said that the majority of Iraqis support and are thankful for our presence there. All of you keep telling me that I am wrong.


Got it?


End of conversation.

 

[Sci]

No. You're completely right. When I was there I didn't see what was going on. I stood in one spot the entire year. I didn't convoy all over the country or anything like that. I didn't run missions everywhere between Kuwait and Mosul. No we stayed in one tiny spot.

See this is exactly what I was talking about. You know more about my experiences than I do.

Of course you know more. You 'googled' the subject. You must be right. This is exactly what I was talking about.

It never fails to amaze me how easily non veterans dismiss veterans when they tell them that the majority of the Iraqi people are glad that we are there and that we took Saddam out of power.

No matter how many times a veteran tries to describe their experiences like finding mass graves or hearing stories about how awful it was to live under Saddam's regime first hand, non civilian completely dismiss us. We are always treated like we have no idea what we're talking about. To many we are considered simply pawn who are being manipulated for some unjust cause.

No matter how many veterans stand up and tell people how well the allied soldiers and the Iraqis work together, for the most part, or how many changes are being made there, for the better and how grateful for it many Iraqis are, it seems like non veterans who have never been there think they know more about the subject than someone who's been there.

You consistently chose throughout this thread, Odo's Bucket, to interpret any statement of disagreement with your beliefs as some sort of personal insult or attack. You consistently chose to take it personally. You consistently chose to play the victim, and it undermined your thesis.

(Your decision, in particular, to attack the veracity of the polls was odd. I'm taking it on faith here that you are a veteran, but, logically-speaking, I have far more reason to trust a poll than Some Guy On The Internet, and you and I both know that. That's why when I present an argument, I don't just expect you to take it on faith that what I'm saying is accurate -- I provide objective, verifiable evidence. Logically-speaking, you should be looking for objective, verifiable evidence for your side instead of just claiming that you know more and expecting everyone to take it on faith that you're telling the truth. I'll take that on faith, but that's exactly that -- a leap of faith on my part. Others might be unwilling to do that entirely, and you'll have ended up undermining your entire thesis as a result. To say nothing of the fact that I've heard from other veterans who apparently had completely different experiences than you and who claimed that the majority of Iraqis want the US out. Why should I believe you over them?)

Bottom line: Don't whine about how people are insulting you by disagreeing with your politics and then bitch when someone calls you on it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Congratulations on your promotion to lieutenant Junior grade.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

No. You're completely right. When I was there I didn't see what was going on. I stood in one spot the entire year. I didn't convoy all over the country or anything like that. I didn't run missions everywhere between Kuwait and Mosul. No we stayed in one tiny spot.

See this is exactly what I was talking about. You know more about my experiences than I do.

No matter how many times a veteran tries to describe their experiences like finding mass graves or hearing stories about how awful it was to live under Saddam's regime first hand, non civilian completely dismiss us. We are always treated like we have no idea what we're talking about. To many we are considered simply pawn who are being manipulated for some unjust cause.

No matter how many veterans stand up and tell people how well the allied soldiers and the Iraqis work together, for the most part, or how many changes are being made there, for the better and how grateful for it many Iraqis are, it seems like non veterans who have never been there think they know more about the subject than someone who's been there.

You consistently chose throughout this thread, Odo's Bucket, to interpret any statement of disagreement with your beliefs as some sort of personal insult or attack. You consistently chose to take it personally. You consistently chose to play the victim, and it undermined your thesis.

(Your decision, in particular, to attack the veracity of the polls was odd. I'm taking it on faith here that you are a veteran, but, logically-speaking, I have far more reason to trust a poll than Some Guy On The Internet, and you and I both know that. That's why when I present an argument, I don't just expect you to take it on faith that what I'm saying is accurate -- I provide objective, verifiable evidence. Logically-speaking, you should be looking for objective, verifiable evidence for your side instead of just claiming that you know more and expecting everyone to take it on faith that you're telling the truth. I'll take that on faith, but that's exactly that -- a leap of faith on my part. Others might be unwilling to do that entirely, and you'll have ended up undermining your entire thesis as a result. To say nothing of the fact that I've heard from other veterans who apparently had completely different experiences than you and who claimed that the majority of Iraqis want the US out. Why should I believe you over them?)

Bottom line: Don't whine about how people are insulting you by disagreeing with your politics and then bitch when someone calls you on it.

Oh, now my service is being called into question. How mature. I'll send you a copy of dd-214.

 

[Sci]

No. You're completely right. When I was there I didn't see what was going on. I stood in one spot the entire year. I didn't convoy all over the country or anything like that. I didn't run missions everywhere between Kuwait and Mosul. No we stayed in one tiny spot.

No matter how many veterans stand up and tell people how well the allied soldiers and the Iraqis work together, for the most part, or how many changes are being made there, for the better and how grateful for it many Iraqis are, it seems like non veterans who have never been there think they know more about the subject than someone who's been there.

You consistently chose throughout this thread, Odo's Bucket, to interpret any statement of disagreement with your beliefs as some sort of personal insult or attack. You consistently chose to take it personally. You consistently chose to play the victim, and it undermined your thesis.

(Your decision, in particular, to attack the veracity of the polls was odd. I'm taking it on faith here that you are a veteran, but, logically-speaking, I have far more reason to trust a poll than Some Guy On The Internet, and you and I both know that. That's why when I present an argument, I don't just expect you to take it on faith that what I'm saying is accurate -- I provide objective, verifiable evidence. Logically-speaking, you should be looking for objective, verifiable evidence for your side instead of just claiming that you know more and expecting everyone to take it on faith that you're telling the truth. I'll take that on faith, but that's exactly that -- a leap of faith on my part. Others might be unwilling to do that entirely, and you'll have ended up undermining your entire thesis as a result. To say nothing of the fact that I've heard from other veterans who apparently had completely different experiences than you and who claimed that the majority of Iraqis want the US out. Why should I believe you over them?)

Bottom line: Don't whine about how people are insulting you by disagreeing with your politics and then bitch when someone calls you on it.

Oh, now my service is being called into question. How mature. I'll send you a copy of dd-214.

And now you put words in my mouth.

I didn't call your service into question. What I said was that in framing your argument, you need to appeal to more than just your own authority, because an appeal to individual experience and authority can never be verified. You need to make use of objective facts, and choosing not to do so undermines your entire thesis. You'll note, for instance, that I didn't spend most of my argument talking about Iraq War veterans I've met who opposed the war, because I am well aware that, from anyone else's POV, I could be lying. I know that I would not be lying, but if I want to present a solid, logical argument, I cannot simply rely on myself.

In other words, I advised you on a better way to frame your argument and serve your thesis. That is all.

 

[Odo's_Bucket]

You consistently chose throughout this thread, Odo's Bucket, to interpret any statement of disagreement with your beliefs as some sort of personal insult or attack. You consistently chose to take it personally. You consistently chose to play the victim, and it undermined your thesis.

(Your decision, in particular, to attack the veracity of the polls was odd. I'm taking it on faith here that you are a veteran, but, logically-speaking, I have far more reason to trust a poll than Some Guy On The Internet, and you and I both know that. That's why when I present an argument, I don't just expect you to take it on faith that what I'm saying is accurate -- I provide objective, verifiable evidence. Logically-speaking, you should be looking for objective, verifiable evidence for your side instead of just claiming that you know more and expecting everyone to take it on faith that you're telling the truth. I'll take that on faith, but that's exactly that -- a leap of faith on my part. Others might be unwilling to do that entirely, and you'll have ended up undermining your entire thesis as a result. To say nothing of the fact that I've heard from other veterans who apparently had completely different experiences than you and who claimed that the majority of Iraqis want the US out. Why should I believe you over them?)

Bottom line: Don't whine about how people are insulting you by disagreeing with your politics and then bitch when someone calls you on it.

Oh, now my service is being called into question. How mature. I'll send you a copy of dd-214.

And now you put words in my mouth.

I didn't call your service into question. What I said was that in framing your argument, you need to appeal to more than just your own authority, because an appeal to individual experience and authority can never be verified. You need to make use of objective facts, and choosing not to do so undermines your entire thesis. You'll note, for instance, that I didn't spend most of my argument talking about Iraq War veterans I've met who opposed the war, because I am well aware that, from anyone else's POV, I could be lying. I know that I would not be lying, but if I want to present a solid, logical argument, I cannot simply rely on myself.

In other words, I advised you on a better way to frame your argument and serve your thesis. That is all.

So basically, you consider the words of other veterans to be reliable, but not the words of this veteran?

That makes a lot of sense.

Also, I can't use my on experiences to make a point, but you can use the experiences of others? Their words strengthen your argument because they are veterans, though my own words do nothing for my own even though I am one as well.

You follow no logic whatsoever.

 

[Sci]

So basically, you consider the words of other veterans to be reliable, but not the words of this veteran?

Did you completely miss the part where I said that I had to refrain from basing my argument primarily on other veterans' testimonies precisely because of that point you just raised? And that for that same reason, you needed to primarily base your argument on something other than your personal testimony?

 

[PKTrekGirl]

And the fact that you're incapable of framing this discussion as anything other than a personal attack on you is not something that makes me inclined to take anything you say seriously, frankly. Having a uniform doesn't make acting like an egotistical prick any more acceptable.

Sci, you know better than this. You are (and always have been) an exceptionally skillful debater. Why lower yourself to calling someone an 'egotistical prick'?

In any event, you have a warning for flaming.

Additionally, I'd like to add this comment: No one on this board hated EITHER of these wars more than I. I was one of about 2 people on Trek BBS who was opposed to going into Afghanistan, and took ALOT of heat for it around here. Further, you'd be hard pressed to find a more fervent Bush opponent than I.

However, I must say that Odo's Bucket DOES have a perspective here than needs to be appreciated - or at least not dismissed out of hand. The guy was THERE, getting shot at. And forgive me for saying so, but you and I owe the guy a certain amount of respect - even if we think he is off base in this discussion of DS9.

I may have opposed these wars, but you will NEVER find me disrespecting the troops who fought them.

I get that you disagree with him. But jeez...give the guy a break. Maybe he's taking this personally...but don't you think we owe the guy a little patience? He's taking it personally because the war WAS personal to him - he was getting SHOT AT, 'fer cryin' out loud!

I know it would be personal to me if I was getting shot at every day.

I'm not saying he's right and you're wrong. I'm just saying to try and put yourself in the guy's shoes for 5 seconds and then debate with him accordingly.

Thanks.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: The Way of the Warrior reminded me of Afghanistan.

Ostracized?
How so?
Has anything bad happened to those who are against the war?

Well, speaking as one who DID oppose going into Afghanistan and Iraq both, I can tell you YES.

So many people seem to have already forgotten what it was like back then - it is really incredible. So many people seem to have already forgotten that whole With us/Against us mentality that Dubya and his cronies nurtured and exploited in this country.

I live in a decidedly Red State...and let me tell you - life was NOT easy for opponents of the war in Afghanistan here in good old Georgia. I lost a JOB due to the fact that I would not support the war and would not contribute to Dubya's re-election campaign in my workplace. I lost friends here because I did not vote for Dubya either time. Keep in mind here - I never disrespected our troops - I just opposed the war and the Commander-in-Chief's manipulations which got us into it.

So yes - bad things DID happen to those of us who opposed the war. And I blame it 100% on our juvenile frat-boy of a President who purposefully tried to stifle freedom of thought in this country by implying that anyone who didn't agree with him (that would have been ME) was at best, unpatriotic...and at worst a terrorist sympathizer. He claimed that opposing the war was not supporting our troops, when nothing could have been further from the truth. I support our troops - in fact, the #1 way of supporting our troops, as far as I'm concerned, is to not send them into wars fought for personal agendas...and to not get them killed unnecessarily. I support our troops by, first and foremost, respecting their LIVES. But yet, I was ostracized as an unpatriotic peacenik. Thanks to Dubya.

With a President like that, what did you expect his supporters to do to people like me?

If you want to know if bad things happened to those who opposed the war, just ask the Dixie Chicks. Opposition to Dubya's war almost destroyed their career (not to mention the death threats, the CD burnings, and all the other drama). And no one took greater delight in any of that than Dubya himself - Defender of Freedom and Liberty.