I can't help but feel like Beth was basically just another Sophia. They spend a lot of time searching for her or wondering where she is, and then ultimately she just ends up dead? It seems like the series is meandering somewhat, but at least there should be some drama coming from her death.
The Walking Dead Season 5
- Thread starter Dream
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I'd say there's a big difference between the "looking for Sophia, wait she's dead" plot and the "oh, Beth is missing. Where is she? There she is! We got her! Oh, she's doing something that got her killed" plot.
Emily on TTD afterwards was heart-breaking in how emotional she was.
How ironic that Father Gabriel was in the same position as those he denied sanctuary. Lucky for him Carl and Michonne helped him (thereby endangering themselves and Judith) and didn't turn away from him. Wonder if he sees Rick's group differently once he saw Bob's cooked leg.
Agreed. It was telegraphed in that season 4 line, "you're gonna miss me when i'm gone." that was such a loud You knew someway, somehow, Beth was not long for the world.
Further, with each scene between Beth and Dawn, the more differences in morality were discussed, it just screamed Beth would not make it out of the hospital
While Beth's end was sad, her choice to stab Dawn seemed forced, if not contrived, as if the writers needed something to force Dawn's hand, when Beth should have been more than satisfied to leave. Both sides would have parted ways with no loss, and since Dawn wanted Noah alive (instead of killing him outright), Rick's group could have planned to rescue him at another time, or anything, but Beth's action did not make much sense.
Here's the thing to consider: with Daryl's hope restored by Beth while they were on the road, and now Beth killed in front his eyes, will he turn into Rick in the wake of Lori's death?
Will Carol now be shocked into reclaiming her purpose in order to add structure back to the group?
I just hope they do not pull a soap-opera gimmick of Maggie & Daryl "discovering each other" because of their grief, and some whacky domestic drama erupts from that.
Still, the deaths were all laid out the same:
Dale argues to spare Randal--and their humanity. feeling rejected by the ends-justifies-the-means stand, he wanders outside and is attacked.
T-Dog argues for doing the human thing and give the inmates a chance; he is shot down by the others, and is bitten soon.
Herschel tries to convince the Governor to reconcile, and smiles as Rick echoes his beliefs, only to have his head hacked off.
Beth argues against Dawn's system / personal actions, and...
Ever notice how Walking Dead heroes have quick, Captain America-like healing properties?
Michonne is shot in the leg, but it does not take long for her to recover--and lose the limp.
Herschel had a makeshift amputation with a filthy hatchet, and went into shock, but he was up and around in no time.
Rick suffered a concussion from the severe beating received at the hands of the Governor, but after a few days, he's alert, kills one of Joe's gang, and is pretty much back to normal, even after head butting Joe.
Considering that kind of healing, Carol should be fine for the second half of season 5.
That is an interesting point, with the only difference is that you need to add Milton to the inspiration for her final appearance: she was Sophia in that she was "lost," then found, but turned into Milton by attempting to kill her captor, only to be killed by the captor.
At least with Milton, he was dealing with well established characters that we cared about. For some reason, I just don't care about Dawn or any of the people at the hospital. It's as if nothing was really accomplished except for the acquisition of Noah, which will probably lead them to Richmond.
With Sophia, for as much as it dragged on, it felt like it served a greater dramatic and logical purpose. With Beth it's just not the same, and this start of the season seems to have dragged a little bit. For as happy as I was that they dealt with Terminus fairly quickly, this part kinda let me down.
I think I have to disagree with something said on Talking Dead. Rick isn't just like Shane now. Equally capable of brutality? certainly, but even though Rick is clearly a mortal threat to anyone who isn't with him, especially if they've made themselves adversarial, Shane was a mortal threat to e v e r y o n e.
Even people in his group were likely to fall prey to him if he felt they posed any kind of weakness, even his best friend. Rick's still not operating like that, and ultimately, he's still falling in when they choose paths he doesn't think are best, because they are his people
I also felt like that little power play Dawn dropped on them over Noah could've been talked down fairly easily. Noah LEFT their group. He was nobody's ward when they found him, and now he's chosen to act as one of them. By action, he's a free agent, even if Dawn argued that Beth (One of Rick's group) helped him to leave. That only happened after she'd been forced into servitude. If they can make no legitimate claim on Beth or Carol, then they can't really force the issue on a guy who left to be on his own
Frankly, do you really want to go bullet for bullet over a guy who will probably leave again whenever he gets the chance? Do the rest of these cops who don't even fully respect you anymore?
Nope. Noah's coming with us, and anybody who wants to cross the line? I'm not going to stop them. You gonna shoot them for leaving? Bullets start flying, things might get sticky in here real quick.
That exchange could've gone a lot smoother with some smart words from anybody in Rick's group
I also fall in with the majority of those polled on Talking Dead. Rick's gruesome plan of going Zero Dark Thirty on Slabtown might have meant Beth still being alive
Even people in his group were likely to fall prey to him if he felt they posed any kind of weakness, even his best friend. Rick's still not operating like that, and ultimately, he's still falling in when they choose paths he doesn't think are best, because they are his people
Agreed. It's heartbreaking, sure. I love Emily, but it just didn't make a heap of sense, but even more, we watched Beth become fairly weapon savvy over time. So that was a really lame stabbing on her part, when she could've gone for the throat & been more effective. Plus, IMHO she should've known to be watching for the gun too. So in that way it all came off really contrived.
I also felt like that little power play Dawn dropped on them over Noah could've been talked down fairly easily. Noah LEFT their group. He was nobody's ward when they found him, and now he's chosen to act as one of them. By action, he's a free agent, even if Dawn argued that Beth (One of Rick's group) helped him to leave. That only happened after she'd been forced into servitude. If they can make no legitimate claim on Beth or Carol, then they can't really force the issue on a guy who left to be on his own
Frankly, do you really want to go bullet for bullet over a guy who will probably leave again whenever he gets the chance? Do the rest of these cops who don't even fully respect you anymore?
Nope. Noah's coming with us, and anybody who wants to cross the line? I'm not going to stop them. You gonna shoot them for leaving? Bullets start flying, things might get sticky in here real quick.
That exchange could've gone a lot smoother with some smart words from anybody in Rick's group
I also fall in with the majority of those polled on Talking Dead. Rick's gruesome plan of going Zero Dark Thirty on Slabtown might have meant Beth still being alive
I thought about you when the guy asked the question about the CDC. And they didn't even answer it! I get that the guy was a goofball, but the question was still legit, and I wanted to hear an answer.
It's just yet another example of Stupid Character™. It wasn't quite as bad as the negotiation with Governor 2.0 though, but there is plenty of precedence for that.
I'm kinda surprised Beth's actions didn't end up in some serious bloodshed.
Which you can take as a sign that for the most part, the idea of a peaceful trade could have worked, and sort of did work. Dawn is the only one who screwed it up.
That said, very interesting that none of the other Slabtown folks joined our group at the end. I really thought a few would, either the workers or even one or two of the cops. But Noah was the only one who walked out with them at the end.
LOL Yeah, I saw that. Of course he was a goofball. He'd never have gotten on the show otherwise
I didn't just feel a little jilted on the intelligence of the characters, but this time it even felt like all this badassery we've been building up with Carol & Rick etc... just disappeared too. Clearly, everyone could see it was a power play from Dawn. She didn't even seem hesitant about it
All these badasses needed to do was explain that they know everything about these cops. They have an inside man, a guy who jumped ship. They have no advantage here to be making additional demands. Take the deal. These cops don't want to back you anymore anyway, and we ALL know it. So just shut the hell up Dawn. Might have even saved her own ass. If they'd just said I don't think so, & started backing out of the place, nobody would've done shit
Great episode.
I kept thinking the priest was an idiot for leaving but I guess from his perspective, Rick's group was nuts. For a second, I thought he would die being locked out like others have said (poetic justice). Also, did Michonne really plan to wait outside until Rick's uncertain return?
Beth's death was a bit of a tear jerker. I didn't see it coming because I expected she'd be the obvious choice (hurting the most with her death).
With the church down and no cure, will we see our team in the hospital in the next episode?
And Morgan trails behind seeing the carnage. I personally think they're topping themselves with this season.
I kept thinking the priest was an idiot for leaving but I guess from his perspective, Rick's group was nuts. For a second, I thought he would die being locked out like others have said (poetic justice). Also, did Michonne really plan to wait outside until Rick's uncertain return?
Beth's death was a bit of a tear jerker. I didn't see it coming because I expected she'd be the obvious choice (hurting the most with her death).
With the church down and no cure, will we see our team in the hospital in the next episode?
And Morgan trails behind seeing the carnage. I personally think they're topping themselves with this season.
Agreed. The character deserved a more meaningful end than such an error-ridden attack on a woman she knew would not hesitate to use violence.
I think a shootout of some kind would be the only outcome;even if Beth did not try her suicidal attack, and Noah surrendered himself, Dawn would expect Rick's group to make another rescue attempt--only the next time, there would be no trading hostages to put the brakes on all-out violence.
At best, the only way see that standoff ending with hope is if someone--Rick, Beth or Dawn to offer to join forces with the other side. Yes, I know that failed with the Governor 2.0, but Dawn seemed to be so unsure of her great plan, that that crack of doubt could have changed everything. She was not a moral woman, but she was not a black & white sadist / megalomaniac like the Governor.
The problem with that is not knowing where Carol (known to be injured) or Beth is. Any room or floor could be a stage for a cop or loyal resident. Moreover, Dawn correctly stated she was aware that Beth & Carol knew each other, so if Dawn's group even suspected anyone loyal to Beth/Carol was infiltrating the prison, I think Dawn--or one of the other aggressive officers--would threaten or at least have a guard ready to kill both.
Beth's anger, followed by Dawn's controlling paranoia was the trigger of the tragedy. A cooler head would save her life, but....
Good episode, even though I can't help but think it was a GIANT missed opportunity to not do more with Carol once she was in the hospital. Like having some epic battle of wills between her and Dawn, or having Carol pretending to be a lot meeker than she really was until she could get the upper hand...
So many cool things they could have done with that idea, but instead she just lies there unconscious the entire time. Sigh.
And yeah Beth's death did feel a bit forced at the end, but it was still quite shocking and painful to see her actually die. And the fact that it DOES feel so tragic and unnecessary just means the writers did a good job developing the character and making us actually care about her (which is pretty impressive considering how forgettable she started out being).
And yeah, count me as one who thinks Rick probably would have been MUCH more successful simply going in with his tactical strike team of badass warriors than trying to negotiate with Dawn. I mean hell, from the looks of things, he and Daryl probably could have snuck in and out of there all by themselves with no one even noticing! It's not like the place was overflowing with cops or anything.
So many cool things they could have done with that idea, but instead she just lies there unconscious the entire time. Sigh.
And yeah Beth's death did feel a bit forced at the end, but it was still quite shocking and painful to see her actually die. And the fact that it DOES feel so tragic and unnecessary just means the writers did a good job developing the character and making us actually care about her (which is pretty impressive considering how forgettable she started out being).
And yeah, count me as one who thinks Rick probably would have been MUCH more successful simply going in with his tactical strike team of badass warriors than trying to negotiate with Dawn. I mean hell, from the looks of things, he and Daryl probably could have snuck in and out of there all by themselves with no one even noticing! It's not like the place was overflowing with cops or anything.
Oh, I'm not saying it's without the potential for mishap, but they had Noah, & he was willing to give them every detail of defensive posture. I didn't get the impression Rick had tossed that plan together. It was a fully considered stealth op. Nobody even argued that it was a bad plan. They just thought it might be bloody & maybe a little reckless. The whole selling point of this exchange was "Everybody goes home". The selling point in Rick's plan was everyone of us goes home
But all in all, I still think they could've made the chosen situation go down much better than it did
But the way I see it, Dawn is grasping when she speaks up about Noah. She's really trying to just do what keeps her from looking weak in front of her squad. The problem is, she already looks weak to her squad. Not one of those people have been speaking supportively about her, and it's common knowledge
So when she speaks up, she's making a power play with nothing to really back it up. All Rick would've had to say is...
"Noah left your group & was on his own when he joined ours. He came in with us & that's how we're leaving. Do you really want to go to bullets over a kid who ditched your group, & will probably do it again? & more importantly, do any of these cops who we all know don't respect you anymore want to back you up on that? The way I see it, anybody on THIS side of the room is backing out of this shithole right now, & if bullets start flying, it's gonna get real sticky in here, mighty quick, & I damn well guarantee that shit's gonna stick to you first... Dawn. Take the deal. You got no leverage to be adding demands"
After all this badassery we've seen from Rick & Carol & Daryl, where are their balls all of a sudden, in this little power play? Nobody's stupid enough to back her up in her demand. They don't even want her anymore. If she kept pushing it, one of her own might have stabbed her right in the back
What happened to the "They're screwing with the wrong people" balls? Those people are in no position to get tough with Rick & crew. Most of their badasses are recently dead. Right after Dawn & Beth died, they were begging to stop the gunfight
I think a show of strength was what she needed to get a dose of. That blubbering hot mess was holding nothing
I saw it coming, I think Beth's storyline had played out. However, I still did not want to see her go, and I cried at 3 moments: A) Her getting shot B) Daryl Crying C) Maggie crying
They should have gone with Rick's plan. She'd probably still be alive, and it would have been a great action moment to go in like that.
I also cried when Emily started crying on The Talking dead, she was very emotionally vested in the other actors, you could tell they were a family even on set. She was a great actress. Makes me want to find other things she's in and watch them, and also listen to her new album. Plus she is very cute in personality and other ways
They should have gone with Rick's plan. She'd probably still be alive, and it would have been a great action moment to go in like that.
I also cried when Emily started crying on The Talking dead, she was very emotionally vested in the other actors, you could tell they were a family even on set. She was a great actress. Makes me want to find other things she's in and watch them, and also listen to her new album. Plus she is very cute in personality and other ways
Yeah, Emily's appearance on TTD was heart-breaking. Man! That was much, much harder to watch than the death of the character!
Rick's plan meant deaths, maybe some of their own. There were too many variables. They didn't know where all their adversaries would be, for one thing. Going in using deadly force would mean there would be deadly retaliation, plus they would have to fight their way out with injured people (like Carol at least). And how many humans are even left at this point? Why kill the species off if you don't have to? I think trying negotiation first wasn't unreasonable.
Yeah, some actors really feel their roles--or the events in an episode when appearing on TD, such as Melissa McBride wiping away tears discussing "The Grove." They took it to heart big time.
Emily's emotions seemed to stem more from just no longer being on set with her friends and the cast. I'm sure they'll all keep in touch but I suspect there's a lot of emotions coming from, "Yeah. you're not going to be working for us anymore." and then having to pretty much move out of your un-needed apartment right away.
Incidentally, I just got done watching "The Grove" on the DVD set and, wow, still a powerful and emotional episode. It's just amazing how much it can just stir emotions in me nearly a year after it aired, knowing what happens, and and after having already seen it a few other times. Need to go back to watch it again with the cast/director commentary.
Incidentally, I just got done watching "The Grove" on the DVD set and, wow, still a powerful and emotional episode. It's just amazing how much it can just stir emotions in me nearly a year after it aired, knowing what happens, and and after having already seen it a few other times. Need to go back to watch it again with the cast/director commentary.
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