The Walking Dead Season 5

[the G-man]

I've long thought there's going to have to be time jump on the show or Carl has to be recast or killed off. I still feel that way. Suspending disbelief necessary to allow a show's sci-fi premise (in this case, a zombie apocalypse) is one thing. Doing so in the fact of common every day real life occurrences (in this case, the obvious physical differences between a 16 year old and a 12 year old) is quite another.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I've long thought there's going to have to be time jump on the show or Carl has to be recast or killed off. I still feel that way. Suspending disbelief necessary to allow a show's sci-fi premise (in this case, a zombie apocalypse) is one thing. Doing so in the fact of common every day real life occurrences (in this case, the obvious physical differences between a 16 year old and a 12 year old) is quite another.

You can bet the farm that Carl will not be killed off, or recast, as Riggs is one of the "faces" of the series. Moreover, now that he's a bit older, suddenly recasting with a younger actor would be a distraction that would eventually lead to the same problem in another year or so.

 

[kitik]

Sort of on topic, AMC has announced that Better Call Saul will premiere on Sunday February 8 at 10pm, and the second episode will air the very next night, Monday Feb 9 at 10pm, and Monday nights will be it's regular timeslot thereafter.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2014/11/20/better-call-saul-to-premiere-sunday-february-8-at-10pm/330100/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Tvbythenumbers+%28TVbytheNumbers%29


Not a bad idea to premiere right after The Walking Dead's premiere/return from it's midseason break. Not going to find any better ratings than that timeslot.

So presumably Talking Dead will be bumped an hour that night. I wonder if folks on there will be allowed to discuss Better Call Saul too.

 

[Mojochi]

You can bet the farm that Carl will not be killed off, or recast, as Riggs is one of the "faces" of the series. Moreover, now that he's a bit older, suddenly recasting with a younger actor would be a distraction that would eventually lead to the same problem in another year or so.

He may be a face of the show, but he's not a particularly formidable presence on the show this season, and his mother was a face of the show at one time too

Clearly it's an issue they'll have to address

 

[kitik]

Actors play people of different ages all the time. So long as he doesn't grow to be 6'6" and dwarf everyone else on the show, it'll be fine.

If nothing else, his growth is actually a nice reminder that a good chunk of time has indeed passed.

 

[Trekker4747]

Actors play people of different ages all the time. So long as he doesn't grow to be 6'6" and dwarf everyone else on the show, it'll be fine.

If nothing else, his growth is actually a nice reminder that a good chunk of time has indeed passed.

But only 2 years have passed, barely. For the rest of us the better part of 4 years have passed which either makes Carl retroactively older as the series goes on (making earlier events making less and less sense) or eating 2-year-old food gives you a lot of hormones.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

Actors play people of different ages all the time. So long as he doesn't grow to be 6'6" and dwarf everyone else on the show, it'll be fine.

If nothing else, his growth is actually a nice reminder that a good chunk of time has indeed passed.

That what the major problem with Walt was, I'm sorry I mean Waaaaaallllltttt. He got really tall, really quickly.

 

[propita]

An earlier poster opined that Rick was being hypocritical about Gareth, since Rick has done some killing, too. While Rick has erred in some decisions, it's his basic outlook that marks his distinction: he considers these people his family. The Termite who was held by Tyrese? He considered his group to be "assholes he stays alive with." When someone in his "family" beings in another person (Glenn/Maggie with Abraham/Eugene/Rosita/Tara), that's good enough for Rick--they're part of the family, worthy of being defended.

That's a big difference to me.

 

[Mojochi]

An earlier poster opined that Rick was being hypocritical about Gareth, since Rick has done some killing, too. While Rick has erred in some decisions, it's his basic outlook that marks his distinction: he considers these people his family. The Termite who was held by Tyrese? He considered his group to be "assholes he stays alive with." When someone in his "family" beings in another person (Glenn/Maggie with Abraham/Eugene/Rosita/Tara), that's good enough for Rick--they're part of the family, worthy of being defended.

That's a big difference to me.

Yeah, I mean Rick is no where near Gareth's philosophy that butchers & cattle are all that's left in the world of men. He doesn't even live the philosophy that the people he takes in owe him in the way the Slabtownies expect

If there's anything I still support about the show, it's that the principle still seems to be hinting that it is possible to be hard, & even brutal & yet still maintain your humanity & hope. The groups they feature always have some element which is somehow over that line

I think what the prison refugees are going to be dealing with is that hardness making it difficult to establish good relations with people. We've had a number of bad encounters now, all of which were with corrupt groups of one kind or another, some farther over the line than others. The reasonable conclusion is that this is leading somewhere, & I suspect it's to an encounter with a group much like their own, wearied, loyal, and tough, but ultimately honorable, only they might be too guarded to know it, & things might go badly, with them wiping out people who are essentially good, because of unfortunate turns of events in their encounter

Let's face it. Groups like Joe's claimers will be far more common than groups like the prison refugees, & unfortunately rather indistinguishable. Unknown tribes crossing your path is potentially way more dangerous than a whole room full of walkers, & methods for determining their morality are rather limited to boot. I expect an awful mishap on the horizon, where good people go down by our cast's hands

Maybe I'm ahead of the curve on that one, but that seems like a worthwhile dramatic course to be heading for, in the plot

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Yeah, I mean Rick is no where near Gareth's philosophy that butchers & cattle are all that's left in the world of men. He doesn't even live the philosophy that the people he takes in owe him in the way the Slabtownies expect

If there's anything I still support about the show, it's that the principle still seems to be hinting that it is possible to be hard, & even brutal & yet still maintain your humanity & hope. The groups they feature always have some element which is somehow over that line

There are moral conflicts about Rick's beliefs / actions within the group, as seen when Glenn has to remind Rick who they are when rescuing the strangers in the other train car (considered innocent, as their identity as the original invaders was not known to Rick & Co.), and protesting Rick's desire to kill whoever was left at Terminus.

Next, recall the look of absolute revulsion on the faces of Glenn, Maggie and Tara as Rick butchered Gareth. The group is far from being on the same page.

The moral conflict is that Glenn has taken his inspiration / worldview from Hershel, so he does not believe outright acts of brutality are necessary in order to survive. I believe that will be yet another internal conflict that separates the group in a semi-permanent way. Probably after something you suggest:

I suspect it's to an encounter with a group much like their own, wearied, loyal, and tough, but ultimately honorable, only they might be too guarded to know it, & things might go badly, with them wiping out people who are essentially good, because of unfortunate turns of events in their encounter.

I could see Glenn and Maggie--perhaps Tyreese choosing to join with another group if the "no prisoners" violence in Rick's group continues.

 

[Mojochi]

But what's the alternative to "No prisoners".... Prisoners? They haven't the ability to make that work. Failing to strike the final blow against those who've been established as your enemy? That has bit them more than once now

And the more likely outcome of a questionable conflict will be that a sheepish person like Tyrese may serve as a catalyst by either dying from retaliation by a group or his inaction may get someone killed by them

People's tunes may start changing if that happens

 

[JD]

I was looking at some of the stuff that happened in the comics after the prison on wikipedia and they did eventually do a time jump (we seem to be at about equivalent to the 60s or 70s and the time jump is around issue 127) so they could always move that forward a bit.

Spoiler: Comics with a possibe hint to the show's future

I'm also really curious now to see when they introduce the Alexandria Safe Zone into the show, because at this point the comics seem to have spent almost as much time there as they did with the characters on the road

.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Yes, the guy had a mullet but that doesn't mean he's not a scientist.

On the contrary, having big unruly hair is actually the most scientist-like thing about Eugene...

I don't think you read my sentence correctly.

Well, I was agreeing with you that crazy hair does not negate someone being a scientist... so would you prefer that I disagree?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

But what's the alternative to "No prisoners".... Prisoners? They haven't the ability to make that work. Failing to strike the final blow against those who've been established as your enemy? That has bit them more than once now

The alternative is not justifying absolute brutality (i.e. Gareth hacked to death) in every situation, otherwise it is self deceiving for the group to act as though they are still the "greater good" of the ZA world. That is part of their moral dilemma that is bound to rear its head in an explosive manner: is life worth living if your only response to threats is absolute brutality? What--exactly--are you living for when you have effectively incorporated the tools of your enemies?

And the more likely outcome of a questionable conflict will be that a sheepish person like Tyrese may serve as a catalyst by either dying from retaliation by a group or his inaction may get someone killed by them

People's tunes may start changing if that happens

They have already explored that to a degree: Tyresee refused to kill Martin--who was the person who knocked out Bob in the woods. When the Terminus gang were killed at the church, Tyreese observed from a doorway and we can assume he saw Martin (being killed by his sister), knowing that he had Martin's life in his hands, but let him live.

Again, to be clear, defense is not in question, but absolute brutality (hacking a man to death, instead--for example--of a simple gunshot) is adopting an excessively violent way of being that would be at home at Woodbury (ex. beheading the helicopter pilot to be part of a psychotic display)--the very type of institution Rick once tried to separate himself (and the group) from.

 

[Mojochi]

They have already explored that to a degree: Tyresee refused to kill Martin--who was the person who knocked out Bob in the woods. When the Terminus gang were killed at the church, Tyreese observed from a doorway and we can assume he saw Martin (being killed by his sister), knowing that he had Martin's life in his hands, but let him live.

I wouldn't say they explored that. I'd call it a flirtation. They dangled it out there & then sidestepped it & got Tyrese off the hook. He lied to Carol. Betrayed their trust in a small way, & was afraid to let it be known that he couldn't or wouldn't do it. That's bad form in a tribe

Again, to be clear, defense is not in question, but absolute brutality (hacking a man to death, instead--for example--of a simple gunshot) is adopting an excessively violent way of being that would be at home at Woodbury (ex. beheading the helicopter pilot to be part of a psychotic display)--the very type of institution Rick once tried to separate himself (and the group) from.

He told the guy that he only got 2 minutes more life because he wasn't worth wasting a bullet on. They finished that threat with 2 bullets & will, & the hesitation to do it earlier cost them someone (Even though Bob was doomed regardless). If it hadn't been Bob, it would've been one of the others, because they were not considering the retaliation

I'm not advocating 100% mercilessness, but in an anarchy, mercy is as rare a commodity as trust. They clearly have demonstrated a policy for entrusting someone. They've even got a little interview process. They must also instill as definitive a policy & practice for determining the appropriate time for mercy or mercilessness, and when bullets are gold, barbarism is free. They are all in a squad now, a squad who has & will face combat. They must act accordingly

If people who are planning to gut you & chow down on your carcass don't qualify for some measure of mercilessness, then no one will, & you are allowing your principles to make you & yours expendable. So yeah, there's a hardening of spirit that comes with that turf. The choice is that you can either come to grips with being hardened toward enemies, or you can grow hardened & wearied from losing those you trust & care for, because you don't take the appropriate measures & apply the proper attitudes.

Comparing that to the Governor collecting skulls is a weak analogy.

What--exactly--are you living for when you have effectively incorporated the tools of your enemies?

Incorporating the tools of your enemies is totally necessary. Incorporating their philosophies is optional. Gareth & his people chose the latter, & it led them to ruin. Rick is not advocating a philosophy of be the butcher or the cattle. He is not self serving to the point that he executes people who may weaken his leadership role, like the Governor did to that military squad

 

[Trekker4747]

The Governor killed people who challenged his authority in some manner or another.

The leader of the prisoner gang tried to kill Rick/get Rick killed.

Carol killed two people because they were sick and she... didn't... want... others... to get sick?(!)

The Termites killed people for food.

Rick's killed people in protection of himself and his friends/family.

I struggle to think of someone Rick has killed that wasn't in someway justified as he was pretty-much backed to a corner and had little other option. The guys in the bar in Season 2? He did because they drew on him.

Shane? Shane was about to kill HIM.

Tomas at the prison? Thomas was trying to kill him.

The black-prisoner who was a friend to Tomas? Also tried to kill rick or posed some-kind of threat.

Some of the Woodbury people, mostly collateral damage in altercation against a group of unknowns who (as far as he was aware) has kidnapped his people and were threatening to kill them.

Woodbury's militia? Self-defense in protection of the prison.

The Governor's militia? Self-defense in protection of the prison.

Joe and The Claimers? Self-defense.

Gareth and The Termites? Self-defense.

In this world, I don't really think there's anyone whom Rick has killed that was out of line as it's always been in defense of himself or those he was with.

That's a hell of a lot different than The Termites, The Governor and The Claimers.

 

[Morpheus 02]

In this world, I don't really think there's anyone whom Rick has killed that was out of line as it's always been in defense of himself or those he was with.

That's a hell of a lot different than The Termites, The Governor and The Claimers.

For now, Rick hasn't crossed "the line". Let's say 1 is where society generally is in the real world, and 9 is the Termites or Joe's Gang, and the line is at 6...Rick's getting close to 5.

Most people don't "suddenly"become evil... it's small steps & comprimises that in and of itself isn't serious, but add it up,will be a stark difference. 5.5 and 5.6 is a small step...but's not far away from "the line".

Killing Gareth might have been necessary...but Rick's little "remember that machete" bit, and continuous stabs, just like the extra stabbing of Carl's Claimer assaulter (which Michonne shielded Carl)...Rick's starting to enjoy that. THAT is a problem. If it was JUST taking care of necessary business --just stab him once in the head. NOT repeatedly in the CHEST.

 

[Trekker4747]

Eh, I'd still say he's got far to go. There's a vast difference between killing someone who poses you a threat, or was getting ready to rape your son, and then going for an overkill and doing what the The Claimers and certainly The Termites were doing.

 

[Green Shirt]

On the contrary, having big unruly hair is actually the most scientist-like thing about Eugene...

I don't think you read my sentence correctly.

Well, I was agreeing with you that crazy hair does not negate someone being a scientist... so would you prefer that I disagree?

Just look at the heads of Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking as examples.

 

[J.T.B.]

Again, to be clear, defense is not in question, but absolute brutality (hacking a man to death, instead--for example--of a simple gunshot) is adopting an excessively violent way of being that would be at home at Woodbury (ex. beheading the helicopter pilot to be part of a psychotic display)--the very type of institution Rick once tried to separate himself (and the group) from.

Rick explained why Gareth & co. weren't shot: to conserve ammo. Plus there was some anger, frustration and revulsion at the practices of the Terminus cannibals that came out. Oh well, payback was a bitch for Gareth.

The show is reaching a point where other groups of humans must be regarded as enemies by default as competitors for resources, and alliances outside the "tribe" are very tricky and potentially dangerous. Prisoners are only useful if they can be exchanged for something, otherwise they're a drain on resources.

"Civilization" is based on people having a safe and secure location that supports agriculture; that is obviously not the case at this point, so old "civilized" rules don't apply. This is not a new situation and humans can handle it, but not within the normal societal standards we've grown up with in the real world.