The Walking Dead Season 5

[Trekker4747]

We can certainly argue a lot on Rick often going for the "overkill" but that certainly seems like a petty thing to get uppity about in this world. Once someone is dead does it matter how much further you go once you've ended a life? And they're also in a situation where they constantly going for the "overkill" when taking down the walkers, because that's what it takes to stop them. So it's probably "easy" to get in the "habit" of going for the "overkill" even when dealing with a human.

So that's a problem, killing walkers probably makes one a bit desensitized to when it comes to killing a person, particularly when killing a person posing a great threat to you, or had recently.

Gripe all you want about Rick taking a bite out of Joe's neck but Joe was moments away from killing Rick and Rick had few other options at that point to stop Joe. Gripe all you want about how Rick killed the man who was fixing to rape Carl but, well, THE MAN WAS GETTING READY TO RAPE HIS SON!!! Add to that that Rick's emotions and adrenaline were still likely pumping from the entire encounter and he just went for it and, arguably, went overboard.

When killing a Gareth and the remaining Termites Rick went for an overkill, sure, but these people were monsters who has posed a great threat to them and for all they knew at that point had not only taken down Bob but had also taken down Carol and Daryl.

Usually when we see Rick go for a kill it's to someone posing him a threat and more often it's just a simple kill. He rarely goes for the overkill.

It's a dark and horrible world but we've seen Rick still have in him an ounce of humanity and being reasonable. Hell, his plan to take care of the hospital pretty much amounted to a stealth mission. Not to storm through there and bash someone with a machete for 10 minutes.

And, more-over, he's listened to his friends/family when they advise him to a different course of action. He listened to Glenn on trying to save the person inside the box-car when trying to leave Terminus. He listened to Glenn and the others later when they suggested they let Terminus be and he did. (Note in both of these cases it didn't turn out well. The man in the box-car attacked them once released and not going back to finish off the Termites resulted in the situation with Gareth later on.)

And Rick listened to, was open to, and went in with the hostage-exchange idea for dealing with the hospital as opposed to his Splinter Cell stealth mission.

Rick is a reasonable man, certainly capable of brutality but we've only seen him resort to it in extreme circumstances and towards people who're virtually monsters. We've also seen him since him coming back to leading the group, he's willing to listen to those around him and take their advice in order to deal with their situations.

If Rick is such a brutal, inhuman, monster would he really risk so many people to drive all the way back to Atlanta to save one teenage girl who, really, isn't in a whole lot of danger. (They're letting her live there. Sure, in indentured servitude, but she's being fed and provided for with a safe environment.)

Rick's not a monster, he's far more human than the "enemy" character's they've ran into but he's certainly conflicted, perhaps not an always perfect leader (a character flaw?! Perish the thought!) but he's doing his best and he has in mind those with him. If he has to kill a group of cops needlessly injuring and enslaving people in order to save one girl, and all of the other "orderlies" in the hospital being held captive, then sobeit.

... Is it me or is Sasha a complete idiot?

Okay, maybe she bought into the officer's story about the walker in the nape'd area, fine. Maybe given her recent experiences she felt for him and the "need" to put-down that walker. But, Jesus Christ! To do it with the guy several feet behind you as you look through the scope of a loaded weapon?! Seriously?!

 

[Servo]

Tonight's episode: Once again, Rick wanted to kill outright, but had to be convinced to consider a different path.

To be fair, every time he's shown mercy and left enemies alive, it's come back to bite him on the arse. Without exception. A situation which is about to happen again now the sob-story cop has got loose.

It's only been a few days since he was talked out of going after the remaining Termites. That could have cost them dearly, and was no picnic for poor Bob. Now he's been talked into the soft approach again, and look what happens.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

You're not getting it though. With these people who've squared off against them, Rick is taking the position that ultimately they will end up being the bringers of death, which is quite often going to be inescapable in this world, & the others are woefully capable of it as much as he is, BUT he lets the options be heard.

He was not waiting for options when he aimed his gun at the bald cop. Daryl had to stop him from his natural desire to kill.

If you want less bloodshed, then lobby for it. Make your case. It's an interesting system,

Lobby for it? If one needs to lobby for rational, civilized behavior, then civilized behavior--morality no longer exists for the individual. It has been reduced to an optional tool which can be easily discarded when standing in the way of natural, opposing desires.

I don't see that, and these people are not under his command. He is not culpable for what they choose to do. Hell, he can't even keep track of them most of the timeFine. They found it more unpleasant, but no one has objected then or now, not even Tyrese who only mentions it to Daryl as being something he was not comfortable with. That's not the same as speaking up against it. Rick is demanding that now.Boy that's thin, Man.

Of course Rick is seen as the leader. With the exception of Abraham, everyone else considers Rick the leader in one way or another. Even in season 4, Daryl wanted him to be more than "just a farmer." Why? Because he's seen as the leader--and this is after season three's "I'm not your governor" speech. Notice Carol's cautious reaction when she found the group in the woods (after escaping Terminus). If she did not see him as the leader, she would necessarily need to weigh Rick's response. She weighs it because she knows he is considered the leadier--the one making the ultimate decision about their fate, whether at the farm, prison or in the woods.

Of course there's an ammo issue unless someone is crafting ammo for them. That they intend to rescue 2 of their people is beside the point. They'd do the with no bulletsbut he wasn't going to go down there against their wishes, just like he has yet to do so in any situation.

Stretching things--big time. There's no bullet issue. He said that, as he wanted to fulfill his promise to kill Gareth with a machete. When Noah informed the group about the occupants of Grady, they knew shooting would be a likely outcome. There's no way the group did not think of going into downtown Atlanta--literally in the mouth of the enemy--without enough ammunition to defend themselves. Rick may want to slip in an out, but he's prepared for gun retaliation.

You're reading the scene wrong. Gareth screams before he gets struck & then the screaming stops on impact. Other screaming is heard while people are bashed & stabbed to death. No suggestion is made directly or in editing that they are looking primarily at Rick. They are looking at a general bloodbath. I'm watching it right

The scene was plainly self explanatory: Gareth continued to scream. Rick did not deliver a killing strike--that was not Rick's intention. Tomas was struck just as fast--facing Rick--but there was no screaming, or no protests as he was instantly killed. He did not intend to kill Gareth instantly.

More importantly, if you truly believe Gareth was killed with the first blow, then Rick's continued hacking was not working off some frustration (like taking a long walk), but vengeful barbarity. Hacking a wounded, unarmed man to death is no longer about defense,or some (convoluted) view of justice.

I don't see any evidence that Rick is torturing people. He's ending people, & it's gruesome, & maybe he wants everybody to know how gruesome a thing it is, because that makes them think about it more carefully, and SPEAK up if they don't want it

You have just successfully argued that Rick is psychotic, as "ending" someone does not require butchery.

Ending someone is Oscar shooting Andrew one time.

Ending someone is Michonne shooting members of Joe's gang one time.

Ending someone is Daryl shooting Mitch (the tank driver) with one crossbow bolt.

Ending someone is Maggie stabbing the guard who (with Merle) entered the room to kill her and Glenn.

Those are examples of single, enemy-ending responses. That is the point...if one truly seeks to end threats quickly.

That was not Rick. Gareth was his wounded captive, and Rick--as promised--killed him with a machete, with no single, Tomas-like death strike intended.

Murder shouldn't be easy. I feel you're confusing Rick's coping mechanism of releasing rage on people he's murdering, and his leadership choice of making people force the issue of non-violence. I don't begrudge him either of those things

Murder becomes easy when you view your enemies as something to be slaughtered--not merely defeated (even if defeat is their death).

Is it me or is Sasha a complete idiot?

Okay, maybe she bought into the officer's story about the walker in the nape'd area, fine. Maybe given her recent experiences she felt for him and the "need" to put-down that walker. But, Jesus Christ! To do it with the guy several feet behind you as you look through the scope of a loaded weapon?! Seriously?!

That's just bad, convenient writing to move the plot forward. No one in their right mind would turn their back on any of the cops--even one passing himself off as innocent. You would think Noah would have been aware of that, and warned Sasha.

 

[Mojochi]

He was not waiting for options when he aimed his gun at the bald cop. Daryl had to stop him from his natural desire to kill.

And he waited for Daryl to stop him. If bloodlust and revenge was all that mattered, then he wouldn't wait. That's why he waited. You just don't want to see that

Lobby for it? If one needs to lobby for rational, civilized behavior, then civilized behavior--morality no longer exists for the individual. It has been reduced to an optional tool which can be easily discarded when standing in the way of natural, opposing desires.

Civilized behavior no longer exists for the world. He's adapting to that. It's high time they understand it. Yes, there'll still be good people, but they occupy an uncivilized anarchy, and travel among the bad ones. Your posture, attitudes & tactics have to represent that

Of course Rick is seen as the leader. With the exception of Abraham, everyone else considers Rick the leader in one way or another.

I never said he wasn't the leader. I said that being the leader doesn't make him answerable for their actions. He holds no responsibility for who they kill, when & how. Period.

There's no bullet issue.

Where are you getting that? Civilization has fallen. No one makes bullets anymore. Ammo conservation is clearly an issue. You're not even invested in the premise of the show anymore when making your points, & I'm losing the willingness to debate because of it

The scene was plainly self explanatory: Gareth continued to scream.

No he didn't. I just watched it. Scream. Hack. Stop scream. Change shot to others killing. More screaming, as they're murdered

More importantly, if you truly believe Gareth was killed with the first blow, then Rick's continued hacking was not working off some frustration (like taking a long walk)

It was being consumed in the rage associated with murdering someone with a machete. Some people actually have an emotional reaction to that shit

You have just successfully argued that Rick is psychotic, as "ending" someone does not require butchery.

I don't agree. Murder is not a squeaky clean business. It's all psychotic, if you ask me. Rick is going about it in the only way it he can handle it. You're trying to set degrees of slaughter and judge people if you think the degree is too far, and you're operating on your own standard. Rick's murdered people quickly & some not so quickly. That's it. He's gone a little wild with it lately, most likely because it's getting to him. He's putting forth violent plans, so that people KNOW what's at stake, because the world is uncivilized & then he allows for people to present alternatives,

If he was like the Governor, or Gareth, or Joe, he'd just do the violent thing, because he's in charge. He's putting out there the worst of things that will have to be done, and waiting for options to come in

If I'm wrong, then I guess Rick is the next awful villain on the show. I guess I'll have to wait & see if they make Rick a villain, and someone has to eliminate him or leave him behind because he's so uncontrollably & maliciously violent

Or, murder will continue to happen when it has to, and it will all be ugly & they'll all have to do it, and Rick will manage this murder squad with as much civility as THEY are willing to offer, which is what he's doing right now. He's making them face the ugly head on, and if there's turns that can happen, then they must be the ones to present them. They must continually choose to be good, so that they can't look at him and say we never even talked about it

It's getting bad, & it'll get worse & this new group is even more of a grey area, but it's not all his fault. It's not all his doing, & it's not all his call, but when the ugly comes he takes it on in full, & that means being an animal

 

[Velocity]

Noah sort of vouched for "Bob", saying he is one of the good ones, so maybe that is why Sasha gave him the benefit of the doubt. Plus she thought he was incapacitated.
So why did he run? Was he afraid of his captors who want to make an exchange without bloodshed or was he more afraid of Dawn and his fellow cops?

 

[Ryan8bit]

I never said he wasn't the leader.

I think Rick is just one of several leaders, really. If he was the leader then people like Glenn, Daryl, or Abraham wouldn't be so often questioning him and then getting their way. I realize this is just an aside since that wasn't your point anyway.

I think Rick isn't as bad as Joe, but in a way I don't think Joe was that bad. He had his own code of morals that suited his group well. In his eyes, Rick was a murderer, and that needed to be punished. I can kinda see that. It's just a clash of two different sets of morals in the post apocalypse.

 

[Trekker4747]

....

I don't know why TREK GOD has such a "hate Rick boner" but it can be frustrating since it's pretty unreasonable and Rick's hardly done a whole lot to make it justified. Rick has often showed he still has humanity (again, notice his scenes with Judith when he meets back up with her and later in the church) but consider everything he's been through in just the last few days to a week. It's crucial to remember that.

A week.

Maybe two full weeks if we really tease the numbers.

Two weeks ago Rick was behind fences, relatively safe and was pretty much slipping from his "farmer Rick" role and coming back around to leading the group. (Something "The Council" seemed to want him to do.)

Inside that two weeks he lost:

The prison and his home.
Countless people due to the virus at the prison. (Granted none of his core friends but people he lived with and likely had some relationship with.)
Countless people who lived at the prison due to the attack on it by The Governor/Woodbury 2.0.
Herschel, someone he'd grown and worked very closely with since they met back at the farm (nearly a year earlier.)
Believed he lost his infant daughter.
Was nearly beaten to death by The Governor.
Spent a good dose of time thinking he'd lost all of his friends.
Was nearly killed himself and had his son nearly killed/raped.

And there's certainly more in there and, again, it's only all happened inside of a couple of weeks (around the time the prison fell.)

And Rick did not react well to biting Joe's neck (notice his shaking hand as he sulks by the car the morning after and how this calls back to when Rick beats-up Merle on the department store roof in the very second episode of the series.)

Rick is not a violent man but when he's pushed enough he'll go that far. Right now, in the wake of what's happened to him in just the last few days (since entering Terminus) he's likely dealing with a lot and has yet to fully process it and store it away. But he's shown good measure of restraint, he didn't push for going back to kill the rest of the Termites (which he should have done considering what not doing cost them.)

The fact that he DIDN'T kill the cop shows remarkable restraint, I'll have to watch the scene again and judge it. But I wonder if it was a true mulling over of his options or just a bit of tension-hooking the cop. And, hey, again, look what not killing the cop has potentially cost them now! Their entire plan might be in danger.

Rick is not a sociopathic killer, he's doing what he thinks needs to be done in order to keep his group alive and together. Hey, Noah integrated himself good with the group and (though with Daryl's help) managed to get Rick to believe, and go for, a plan to rescue Beth and Carol.

Did he go overboard on what he did with Gareth? Perhaps, but Gareth needed to be killed. He was a threat. Was Rick to just take Gareth at his word that he, and the others, would just leave and not continue to pose a threat to them?

Gareth was monster who hunted and ate PEOPLE! He hunted and ATE A MAN'S LEG RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM! Why let someone like that live?! Why believe one, single, word he has to say?

And in a world like the one they live in isn't it just a tiny bit justified to "overkill" someone who's such a monster? Today whenever someone who's killed, raped, raped-and-killed a child people lament that that person should suffer a similar fate, if a child is killed by someone or its parents in a horrific way people suggest they be killed in a similar way. That's revenge talk. And when it comes to people like that we probably wouldn't feel too bad when it comes to some asshole who raped a child and then killed it by some gruesome manner having the same done to him. But we live in a society so it doesn't happen, closest we get is the death penalty and even that is seeing its way out and is hardly practiced in states that still have it save a few (We love you, Texas!)

Rick lives in a world where there are vile, horrible people out there and trust comes at a premium. And he just dealt with a monster who was capturing, killing, and then eat people and was walking through the slaughter room taking inventory with a ledger like he was operating a business. Completely non-effected by what he was doing. So, it more-or-less in an "old-world, Old Testament Biblical justice sort of way", that Rick would kill someone like Gareth in such a horrifying way. Or, kill him rather quickly and then treat the corpse a horrifying way.

Rick is not a monster, he's not a sociopath or anything of the sort. He's man wanting to protect the ones he loves and is close with and is willing to resort to whatever means he can in order to do it. He may "vent" when pushed (how he killed the man who was going to RAPE HIS SON, or a man who was killing and eating people) but by and large Rick has shown pretty good restraint and a willingness to go with non-violent options (the stealth mission through the hospital, going with the prisoner exchange.)

I don't get how TG1 can be supportive of Carol; a woman who killed and burned the bodies of quarantined people who had the damn flu and "overkilled" her husband's corpse (instead of just one blow to the head to prevent reanimation she violently continues hacking at him with a pickax. And this was quiet, kept down, abused spouse Carol well before she lost her daughter and even longer before she embraced her "dark side.") but be so judgmental towards Rick over how he treated a man trying to kill him within biting distance, a potential child murderer/rapist and a cannibal.

 

[Mojochi]

And Rick did not react well to biting Joe's neck (notice his shaking hand as he sulks by the car the morning after and how this calls back to when Rick beats-up Merle on the department store roof in the very second episode of the series.)

I think that was the turning point. That was the point he fully integrated himself into the anarchy. A conscious decision that he'd do the ugly things, not even just murder, but destroy by whatever means are required, including his own teeth. It's from that point on that every proposal he puts before the group is the ugliest. Plan for the worst, and then when others offer better options, & can support them with either facts or popular support, then he can at least know he told them about the ugly

He shot down Tyrese's plan, saying it might work but that his will work, but neither of them had any real proof that either was guaranteed to work. However, Daryl came in & supported Tyrese, & that popular support was enough to go with it. He wants them to work for the good way. He wants it to be their way. He's not there to be the goodwill ambassador leader anymore. He's chosen to be the leader that does the bad things, when the bad things are necessary, and by making it awful, he's giving the others incentive to speak up when they don't think it's necessary & make their case, and he usually supports them, even when they're in err, which they look to be again

killing walkers probably makes one a bit desensitized to when it comes to killing a person

I've long considered that as well

 

[Trekker4747]

I think that was the turning point. That was the point he fully integrated himself into the anarchy. A conscious decision that he'd do the ugly things, not even just murder, but destroy by whatever means are required, including his own teeth. It's from that point on that every proposal he puts before the group is the ugliest. Plan for the worst, and then when others offer better options, & can support them with either facts or popular support, then he can at least know he told them about the ugly

But, again, it's only been a few days since the encounter with Joe. We need to give Rick time to see where this all goes.

I just sort-of wish there was a more coherent arc here with him. I mean, when he proposes a working-relationship with The Governor during the final prison encounter we see Herschel smile (Rick's humanity and touch of common sense is coming back) before he is killed. This suggested something of an "arc" for Rick to his fall (the Ricktatorship through S3, his farming in the first part of S4 to end up back to more-or-less the man he was in S2) and even the second part of S2 we see Rick, more or less, going with a bit of a "softer" side with some humanity in him.

Then he teeths-out Joe's throat (which, again, I don't think was too uncalled for in the circumstances) and while he's not the Ricktator anymore he seems to be a bit back before that somewhat sense of humanity he achieved in last year's mid-season finale. I think his brutality is touch "called for" in the circumstances we've seen with Joe, the Claimers, the Termites and going into the hospital group (what name do we have for them) but he *does* seem a bit more brutal than where he likely should be.

It's a world that maybe calls for brutality but it'd be interesting to see Rick get by more by not having to resort to that until the absolute last resort and if the "soft approach" keeps failing (like it did with the Termites and looks like it may go with the hospital group) it's going to be harder and harder for him to go with the soft approach so quickly. Especially if they make it to the Alexandria Safe Zone and what they're going to run into there.

 

[Mojochi]

and going into the hospital group (what name do we have for them)

Well the place is nicknamed Slabtown. So I've been calling them Slabtownies. The hospital is Grady, so maybe Gradians is in order too

As for Rick's arc, I just assume that character arcs get trashed from season to season.

However, I do feel the arc is that he's going badass, and in a way that he's actually being the "Bad Guy" FOR the group, and not to say he is actually a bad man. He's just got to be bad for the good of everyone

 

[Locutus of Bored]

... Is it me or is Sasha a complete idiot?

Okay, maybe she bought into the officer's story about the walker in the nape'd area, fine. Maybe given her recent experiences she felt for him and the "need" to put-down that walker. But, Jesus Christ! To do it with the guy several feet behind you as you look through the scope of a loaded weapon?! Seriously?!

Plus, doesn't she know Sitwell can't be trusted? Just because he took off his glasses doesn't mean he's no longer working for HYDRA.

 

[Mojochi]

I think Rick is just one of several leaders, really. If he was the leader then people like Glenn, Daryl, or Abraham wouldn't be so often questioning him and then getting their way. I realize this is just an aside since that wasn't your point anyway.

The idea of a leader in an anarchy is a bit thin anyhow. They follow Rick sometimes. That's about as close as anyone can call it

I think Rick isn't as bad as Joe, but in a way I don't think Joe was that bad. He had his own code of morals that suited his group well. In his eyes, Rick was a murderer, and that needed to be punished. I can kinda see that. It's just a clash of two different sets of morals in the post apocalypse.

I might have agreed with that, until the vey end when Joe then decides that his payback will include raping & killing the people with Rick. There's been nothing in his code to support that, and as far as making things square by their group, it's way beyond.

Rick was in a house they came upon. They were beating down somebody when they came in. He responded by escaping in a way where he had to kill one of them. The idea that they needed to get even is one thing (Killing Rick in return) but this notion that they now get to kill everyone & rape people? That's just marauding.

 

[Trekker4747]

I think Rick is just one of several leaders, really. If he was the leader then people like Glenn, Daryl, or Abraham wouldn't be so often questioning him and then getting their way. I realize this is just an aside since that wasn't your point anyway.

The idea of a leader in an anarchy is a bit thin anyhow. They follow Rick sometimes. That's about as close as anyone can call it

I think Rick isn't as bad as Joe, but in a way I don't think Joe was that bad. He had his own code of morals that suited his group well. In his eyes, Rick was a murderer, and that needed to be punished. I can kinda see that. It's just a clash of two different sets of morals in the post apocalypse.

I might have agreed with that, until the vey end when Joe then decides that his payback will include raping & killing the people with Rick. There's been nothing in his code to support that, and as far as making things square by their group, it's way beyond.

Rick was in a house they came upon. They were beating down somebody when they came in. He responded by escaping in a way where he had to kill one of them. The idea that they needed to get even is one thing (Killing Rick in return) but this notion that they now get to kill everyone & rape people? That's just marauding.

Yeah, plus after seeing a freshly washed woman's shirt in the house they argue over who gets to rape her when/if she returns.

Considering they get to "claim" sexually assaulting a woman who theoretically exists and will theoretically return pretty much says they're not in anything resembling similar moral ground as Rick and his group.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

And he waited for Daryl to stop him. If bloodlust and revenge was all that mattered, then he wouldn't wait. That's why he waited. You just don't want to see that

Nice spin job. Rick was not waiting--he was being taked down. His first--natural desire was to blow the man's brains out. Rick's brutality (and shocked reactions to it) has been a running theme since the fall of the prison. His acts are not uncharacteristic, random occurrences--they have become his way of being.

Lobby for it? If one needs to lobby for rational, civilized behavior, then civilized behavior--morality no longer exists for the individual. It has been reduced to an optional tool which can be easily discarded when standing in the way of natural, opposing desires.

Civilized behavior no longer exists for the world. He's adapting to that. It's high time they understand it. Yes, there'll still be good people, but they occupy an uncivilized anarchy, and travel among the bad ones. Your posture, attitudes & tactics have to represent that

The world had predatory, violent people not long after the start of the ZA (Woodbury did not spring up overnight), but who justifies their behavior?

The other running theme is that you keep your humanity--or you become your enemy.

It matters not what you do, whether you are :

1. Rick or Tomas: hack a man to death (the latter on inmate Big Tiny)

2. Shane: kill not only for obsession but warped ideas of survival.

3. The Governor / Governor 2.0: cut off heads for a walker aquarium, kill to take what others have, or kill for the least amount of "opposition" to your alleged authority.

4. Joe's gang: kill based on one-sided, hardline perception of lies.

5. Randall's gang: A marauding pack of violators willing to kill to take what others have.

6. Terminus: tuning everyone else into the victims of your abuse/survivalist overreaction.

...you have choices.

If one allows himself to no longer exercise his humanity--thinking extreme response is the only way to ensure safety, then your are falling in line with #6. The "Then" scenes about Terminus illustrated this perfectly, as abuse and threats lead to Gareth, et al., concluding that absolute extremes ("you're either the butcher or the cattle" is applicable beyond cannibalism) are justified in order to survive.

I never said he wasn't the leader. I said that being the leader doesn't make him answerable for their actions. He holds no responsibility for who they kill, when & how. Period.

You said:

Rick is the front man

The front man is usually considered to be the leader who determines action--sets directive tone & policy for the group. He is not an empty figurehead, and as a result, the others always viewed him as leader, hence Daryl wanting him to return to leadership duties early in season 4. The inverse of your He holds no responsibility for who they kill, when & how" is in reality, the others not being responsible for his moral decay.

Where are you getting that? Civilization has fallen. No one makes bullets anymore.

There's no need to make anymore for a couple of reasons: it is up to you if you want to believe the following, but a 2013 article in Wired magazine stated there are 10 billion bullets produced in the United States every year. Clearly, 10 billion are not all being used, hoarded or sold in or off-shore every year, so what becomes of such an astounding cache of ammunition when--as many WD fans believe--most of the human population is dead? If true--meaning humans were dying by the city-load from one area to another, initial survivors, roamers, Woodbury-sized groups, et al., did not raid and dig out the endless supply of bullets now just laying around creatures with no use for it. Moreover, I noticed no matter where the group ends up over the course of five season (two in-universe years), Rick will always find a fresh supply for his Colt Python.

You're not even invested in the premise of the show anymore when making your points, & I'm losing the willingness to debate because of it

That actually applies to you, as you are denying anything that the series had established about Rick's character devolution. to the point: The entire "ammo" comment was in no way meant to be taken literally, as the scene had a specific conclusion it was designed to reach--predicted earlier in the season 5 opening.

Crucial: if--as you believe--ammunition was so limited, Rick would not waste it on a risky shot at Gareth's fingers; he could have missed, or worse, the missed bullet could have ripped into the rooms where the others were hiding. Do you really think that made any sense? If killing Gareth was the point--as you argue--then hawk-eyed Rick--sharp enough to shoot off small targets like fingers--could (and should) have fired ONE bullet into Gareth's head. Problem solved.

A waste of ammunition was not his true concern. His every action upon returning to the church (along with his earlier promise) makes that clear as day.

It was being consumed in the rage associated with murdering someone with a machete. Some people actually have an emotional reaction to that shit

That is an argument if an anomaly. This character devolution has been a running theme since the prison's fall.

I don't agree. Murder is not a squeaky clean business. It's all psychotic, if you ask me. Rick is going about it in the only way it he can handle it. You're trying to set degrees of slaughter and judge people if you think the degree is too far, and you're operating on your own standard.

Wrong.

Standards and degrees were set by characters in the series, as noted yesterday:

Ending someone is Oscar shooting Andrew one time.

Ending someone is Michonne shooting members of Joe's gang one time.

Ending someone is Daryl shooting Mitch (the tank driver) with one crossbow bolt.

Ending someone is Maggie stabbing the guard who (with Merle) entered the room to kill her and Glenn.

Those are examples of single, enemy-ending responses. That is the point...if one truly seeks to end threats quickly.

That was not Rick. Gareth was his wounded captive, and Rick--as promised--killed him with a machete, with no single, Tomas-like death strike intended.

He's gone a little wild with it lately, most likely because it's getting to him. He's putting forth violent plans, so that people KNOW what's at stake, because the world is uncivilized & then he allows for people to present alternatives

If he was like the Governor, or Gareth, or Joe, he'd just do the violent thing, because he's in charge. He's putting out there the worst of things that will have to be done, and waiting for options to come in

Again, you are spinning. The look on his face when Tyreese's "going home" plan (and at Daryl's agreement) should give anyone a clear view into Rick's thought process.

If I'm wrong, then I guess Rick is the next awful villain on the show.

Heroes turned into villains (or the opposite) is not new to film or TV. It would be interesting if Rick reached his crescendo of brutality, but something believably written sends him in the direction of normalcy. That would allow other characters (in the group) to be placed in an emotional dilemma they cannot run away from.

It's getting bad, & it'll get worse & this new group is even more of a grey area, but it's not all his fault. It's not all his doing, & it's not all his call, but when the ugly comes he takes it on in full, & that means being an animal

There'a price to be paid for that behavior / philosophy. Phillip Blake may not have started off like his most known period, but he too turned into someone divorced from morality, and ultimately, he had to pay a series of prices--which he alone set into motion.

....

I don't know why TREK GOD has such a "hate Rick boner" but it can be frustrating since it's pretty unreasonable and Rick's hardly done a whole lot to make it justified.

...said the guy who never gives Carol even a hint of a break for trying to stop a misunderstood disease outbreak that was quickly overwhelming the prison.

Come on...say something nice about Carol's character.

 

[Servo]

Nice spin job. Rick was not waiting--he was being taked down. His first--natural desire was to blow the man's brains out.

Yes. A man who just ambushed his friend and attempted to feed him to a walker to save his own skin. Now Bob-Cop has escaped and is no doubt on his way to screw up Rick's plan, which will undoubtedly end up in the death of one or more of Rick's friends.

Crucial: if--as you believe--ammunition was so limited, Rick would not waste it on a risky shot at Gareth's fingers; he could have missed, or worse, the missed bullet could have ripped into the rooms where the others were hiding. Do you really think that made any sense? If killing Gareth was the point--as you argue--then hawk-eyed Rick--sharp enough to shoot off small targets like fingers--could (and should) have fired ONE bullet into Gareth's head. Problem solved.

A waste of ammunition was not his true concern. His every action upon returning to the church (along with his earlier promise) makes that clear as day.

There was never any question that Rick's line was meant to convey a concern about limited ammo. It was always intended to let Gareth know that he wasn't worth a bullet. And as he said; he made him a promise.

This character devolution has been a running theme since the prison's fall.

Is that not the point? The fact that the ZA has beat down season one's clean-shaven, merciful peacekeeper, has made for engrossing TV.

As I said earlier in a post you conveniently ignored; the ZA has at every turn smacked Rick in the face whenever he's shown mercy and let people live. In every case he has either lost people, or something bad has happened. Can you really blame him for the road he's ended up on? Whenever he's tried a peaceful solution, shit has gone down and his group have ended up having to kill. So two years later he's decided to cut out the middleman, stop risking the lives of his friends, and just go for the jugular.

Rick's a product of his environment, and his environment is death and loss.

 

[Mojochi]

Say something nice about Carol's character

She' s pretty good at executing children when she has to. You've lost my interest now. I never said he wasn't the leader. You're insanely going to deny that ammo conservation is a reality, and you're going to interpret two times hearing his name, & a 5 word sentence as "he was being talked down." Believe what you we want. Ultimately I suspect that this area of the plot will continue to disappoint you, because you're off the track of what's going on, IMHO.

Peace.

 

[Trekker4747]

...said the guy who never gives Carol even a hint of a break for trying to stop a misunderstood disease outbreak that was quickly overwhelming the prison.

Come on...say something nice about Carol's character.

Why should I give her a break for killing two people in quarantine? Misunderstood disease? They didn't know what it was but diseases till behave a certain way and no disease on the planet retroactively un-infects people if you kill the person who infected them in the first place.

She killed two innocent people who posed no threat, and she did it without consulting the prison's leadership hierarchy.

Something nice about her character? The development of the relationship between her and Daryl is somewhat touching and sweet.

But, I still don't believe she makes great decisions for the group and I don't buy her as the bad-ass marksman/kill her we've seen her to be as of late. Oh, it's also worth nothing she was killing innocent people in Terminus over very little evidence they posed a great threat and she left Tasha to be devoured by walkers in a pretty cold manner.

Where's your righteous indignation over that?

What did Tasha do to "deserve" to be shot and left to be eaten by walkers? Carol didn't need to to keep them occupied since she was in her walker-camo, and Carol didn't have the full story or grasp on what was going on in Terminus or anything other than "something" was happening.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

I'm not a Carol fan myself....

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

...said the guy who never gives Carol even a hint of a break for trying to stop a misunderstood disease outbreak that was quickly overwhelming the prison.

Come on...say something nice about Carol's character.

Why should I give her a break for killing two people in quarantine? Misunderstood disease? They didn't know what it was but diseases till behave a certain way and no disease on the planet retroactively un-infects people if you kill the person who infected them in the first place.

It was misunderstood by those thinking it was some glorified flu or pig-borne virus. Last time I checked, pigs did not make both human and zombies' eyes bleed.

She killed two innocent people who posed no threat, and she did it without consulting the prison's leadership hierarchy.

1. The on-screen disease course of Doctor "S" (Subramanian), began as it had with Karen: coughing, fatigue and other, similar indicators. If left untreated (and with manpower severely cut down by the 1st internal outbreak), coughing blood, unconsciousness, death/reanimation was a guarantee. Hershel witness that for himself with Dr. S, and Glenn barely survived it.

Again, with limited manpower, and the disease having its way with anyone at anytime, Karen and David--increasingly ill, hence their quarantine--were going to die. There was no miracle cure--but there was another outbreak.

2. Most importantly, Carol did not act out of malice; this was not a person itching to kill just for the heck of it, control issues or some Lizzie-like fascination with death. She was trying to stop a disease that effectively wiped out the majority of the prison population in a couple of days. With it spreading that rapidly, what would you do?

Something nice about her character? The development of the relationship between her and Daryl is somewhat touching and sweet.

This is good start. Now, tell us how Carol is the greatest warrior the ZA world will ever know--how she's the best leader, and...and...and..if Queen Dumbass Andrea took Carol's universe-wise advice, the Governor would have been rotted meat in his own bed, so Andrea, Merle and Hershel would all be alive, living in the prison and....and...

But, I still don't believe she makes great decisions for the group and I don't buy her as the bad-ass marksman/kill her we've seen her to be as of late. Oh, it's also worth nothing she was killing innocent people in Terminus over very little evidence they posed a great threat and she left Tasha to be devoured by walkers in a pretty cold manner.

Where's your righteous indignation over that?

"Very little evidence?"

"Carol didn't have the full story or grasp on what was going on in Terminus?"

1. She overheard Martin taking about Carl and Michonne in a way that did not say they were his new best friends. Next, she witnessed--I say again--witnessed Rick, Daryl, Bob and Glenn all tied up, and being dragged away.

What more evidence do you need to act? Possibly more than any other situation in the history of the series, if Carol did not act, it was a guarantee that the quartet would have been murdered in that room, while the rest in boxcar "A" would be as easily subdued and killed.

Rick would not have escaped his bonds in the quick time the batter was cracking heads. The shooting and subsequent explosion gave Rick time he did not have without Carol's intervention.

To be honest, in-universe, Carol saved the entire show.

No Carol means the rest of the group--Abraham's included--die, leaving only Carol, Tyreese and Judith as the protagonists of the series.

I know you can imagine that...a Carol-headlined series...

By now, i'm guessing you're hoping she bites it in the mid-season finale, so you can say "Finally! I will never have to read another Carol hard-on post again!!"

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Say something nice about Carol's character

She' s pretty good at executing children when she has to. You've lost my interest now. I never said he wasn't the leader. You're insanely going to deny that ammo conservation is a reality, and you're going to interpret two times hearing his name, & a 5 word sentence as "he was being talked down." Believe what you we want. Ultimately I suspect that this area of the plot will continue to disappoint you, because you're off the track of what's going on, IMHO.

Peace.

I think you are so hell-bent on protecting barbarity as a psychological response to the ZA, that you make endless excuses for Rick, when a great volume of series evidence (posted at length) proves one does not need to act in that manner.

Regarding the ammunition: I pointed out the flaw in your theory, which--once again--the actual series supports in Rick's stated desire regarding the machete, and how such precious ammo was used in a wasteful, risky manner with Gareth's fingers.

You can like a series all you want, but I am far from the first person in Trek BBS' Walking Dead thread history to question character flaws, or plot devices that do not hold up to even mild scrutiny.