The Walking Dead Season 5

[DarthTom]

Again, it seems the hallway was selected to force close, fatal contact, when anyone truly fearing for their safety (in a hostage situation, no less) would prefer open spaces.

I'm not disagreeing with you per se, and obviously the scene was constructed in a way to make it more plausible for Beth to be killed using the close contact. However, at least for me - this is on the bottom-end of my nitpicks of this show in terms of logically how people would react in real life situations.
o
At the end of the day Trek_God this is a fairly well acted show and at least for me the plots haven't yet become too redundant.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

o
At the end of the day Trek_God this is a fairly well acted show and at least for me the plots haven't yet become too redundant.

I understand--and we would not be discussing a character's death so vigorously if we were not invested in the performance and development over time.

 

[Mojochi]

The acting is the absolute best thing about the show, (Since some of the poorer ones like Andrea & Lori went out) & the look of the show is pretty amazing. It's a show I really want to support. That's why these missteps hurt

Ultimately, between the total hack job on the choreography of the death shot & the complete waffling of Rick & crew on the poorly played power scheme from Dawn, I'm calling this the lamest cast death of the show thus far, which sucks, because I liked how the character had come along, & I really liked the actress

Nobody who stabs human targets daily for a year could be so inept at it. Nobody can land an instantaneous head shot from the hip on a target less then 4 inches away, especially without any of the other armed people noticing, & nobody who starts the season sharpening belt buckles because "They're screwing with the wrong people" would roll over so easily for some twerp who suddenly wants to alter the deal

This was not a negotiation anymore. It was a 2 for 2 exchange. Fuck off Dawn. The alternative is to go bullets out over a kid who escaped your indentured servitude, with a squad who don't even want to follow you anymore. The kid put himself out there to help get Rick's people back. That's a guy you stick up for, especially if you're the guy who quick drew two road warriors to death in a darkened bar, (Good point Trek_God_1)

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

So, uh, was Dawn supposed to actually be the "evil one" of that group after all? I kinda sorta didn't quite get what the hell they were trying to do there.

 

[bbjeg]

Good and evil are points of view. Dawn was focusing more on respect than friendship which was emotionally dragging down those working under her (which could be viewed as bad) but her attitude kept them alive (which could be viewed as good).

 

[Locutus of Bored]

So, uh, was Dawn supposed to actually be the "evil one" of that group after all? I kinda sorta didn't quite get what the hell they were trying to do there.

She's not as overtly evil as Officer Rapey and Officer Shooty were, but when she risked full on conflict to demand the kid be returned to her just to sooth her bruised ego because he left and challenged her author-i-tai, she showed her true colors and demonstrated that her civility was just a facade.

Speaking of which, though, even to bolster their numbers, it was pretty stupid of Rick to bring the kid with them to the hospital. If Dawn sees the defector it could piss her off and cause her to do something rash (which it did), and there's always the chance, however remote, that he could have turned on Rick's group while standing among them. Not to mention again how meeting in a natural bottleneck like that hall is a terrible idea for both parties, but moreso Rick's since they had fewer numbers, no element of surprise, injured people, and Dawn had the home field advantage.

 

[Trekker4747]

And since the kid was walking like The Penguin from Gotham (having the only lasting injury in the history of the series) he was a tactical liability in any encounter. Because he in confrontation where they had to flee either he'd get left behind or someone would have to carry his gimp ass to safety. Bringing him along was dumb, he had given them a map of the hospital so they didn't need him to get around.

 

[Mojochi]

I figure they're probably implying he came along because he was familiar with the players and could offer some kind of advantage in negotiating. Actually, didn't one of the 1st contact cops ask if Noah was with them? I guess you could say that having him there was what got them in the door peaceably

That's still weak though, because the cops would really have no option but to negotiate. They'd already lost 3 or 4 cops recently, & now Rick had 2 captive & 2 in their sights. There was maybe only 2 or 3 left inside, plus Dawn. They couldn't just turn Rick away, whether Noah was there or not

 

[Enterprise is Great]

Walking Dead Companion Series Casts Cliff Curtis as Male Lead

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I figure they're probably implying he came along because he was familiar with the players and could offer some kind of advantage in negotiating. Actually, didn't one of the 1st contact cops ask if Noah was with them? I guess you could say that having him there was what got them in the door peaceably

That's still weak though, because the cops would really have no option but to negotiate. They'd already lost 3 or 4 cops recently, & now Rick had 2 captive & 2 in their sights. There was maybe only 2 or 3 left inside, plus Dawn. They couldn't just turn Rick away, whether Noah was there or not

Good points--there was no good reason to have Noah there. Even if one of the hostages mentioned him to Dawn, Rick could have lied, saying once he (Noah) provided help, he took one of the cars, heading for home. Noah only appears to give Dawn a reason to anger Beth, otherwise, Beth lives, as the exchange was eve. Noah's presense only served to be the potential wildcard to be exploited--exactly what Dawn jumped on.

Another option was for Noah--once agreeing to stay--to instantly ease tension by trying to convince Dawn to leave--not with Rick's group (of course), but as a scheme to make her side believe the hostilities were over, and that he would not be trouble. I'm not saying the scheme would work, but in that moment--just that moment, it might have prevented Dawn's ultimately fatal, ego-stroking retort.

I keep hoping Beth's death will mean something for the core group, other than sad faces or arguments about their hopeless state.

My concern stems from some of TWD's major character deaths failing to leave a realistic, long term effect on the characters going forward, with the exception of 3 situations: Rick's grief-induced hallucinations after Lori's death (which ran until the end of season 3), Glenn adopting Hershel's peaceful approach, and Carol's either not wanting to talk about Sophia (S4), or the Samuels girls' fate.

However, in Dale's case, aside from his pleas for humanity briefly referred to at his funeral, T-Dog mentioned twice in S3, Andrea referenced by Tyreese and the Governor (each one time in S4), or Bob not really a topic for anyone outside of Sasha, their deaths have been here today, gone tomorrow incidents.

The last few minutes of "Coda" were so milked for tragedy--arguably more than any other death before--that the producers must keep their promise that it was (in so many words) a game changer, lest the series looks like a set up for a scheduled shock every seven episodes.

 

[Mojochi]

^You're leaving out Shane. His death was a turning point & still echoes here & there in Rick & the people who still remember, or at least he's not more forgotten than anyone else. Frankly, every character death has some level of forgettablity or abandonment for a tv show

They even mentioned Jim this season, who they still use as their measurement gauge on how long a bite takes to kill. It's a little annoying when they so specifically reference things from S1, & then can so easily disregard things that happened then too. Despite the timeline being rather narrow, I don't feel any kind of linear orientation to the show, from season to season. After the next 8 episodes, we'll wait a year, & then we could come back & they'll chaotically change stream with characters again. Sasha goes soft. Maggie gets hard, Michonne falls in love. There's no sense to any of it

BTW, how hard is the clock ticking on Tara & Rosita's lives now? Neither of them offer anywhere near as engaging a story as Beth did

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

^You're leaving out Shane. His death was a turning point & still echoes here & there in Rick & the people who still remember, or at least he's not more forgotten than anyone else. Frankly, every character death has some level of forgettablity or abandonment for a tv show

Well, Shane was a slight reference in the remainder of the Lori tension in S3 (while she was alive), a passing comment by the Governor ("Arrow on the Doorpost") and Carol, when telling Andrea what happened at the farm.

In S4, Shane was only used sparingly--either Carol accusing Rick of being a hypocrite (in justifying her killing Karen & David, when he killed Shane), or Carl dropping extended guilt on Rick for their overall problems (while securing the abandoned house's door). However, for as much as Shane's ticking time bomb personality / actions dominated S2, he's less than an afterthought now.

They even mentioned Jim this season, who they still use as their measurement gauge on how long a bite takes to kill. It's a little annoying when they so specifically reference things from S1, & then can so easily disregard things that happened then too. Despite the timeline being rather narrow, I don't feel any kind of linear orientation to the show, from season to season.

...and there should be linear orientation. In-series, the ZA is only a couple years old, so details like S1 Jim (or S2 Jimmy--part of Daryl's "you lost two boyfriends" S4B argument) are good for continuity--the feeling that the heroes' lives have a long, threaded history, instead of random points of drama only serving that moment, then discarded.

BTW, how hard is the clock ticking on Tara & Rosita's lives now? Neither of them offer anywhere near as engaging a story as Beth did

Yeah--Tara is too happy--and in the aftermath of Beth, she will pursue Glenn (the latter possibly pushed away by grieving Maggie / Tara's crush is implied), or maybe she goes after Maggie, only to be one of the 1st victims of the next Super Threat?

Rosita--yes, she's moving toward T-Dog zone: now that Glenn has made her feel she has a welcomed purpose outside of Abraham, she could end up as the next sacrificial lamb for a real (i.e. non-Eugene) cause.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

Rosita outlives Abraham in the comics and is still alive and I don't think they would kill her just yet. They shouldn't especially since she's drop dead gorgeous and doesn't mind standing up to Abraham even after they 'made the beast with two backs' (i.e. she's cool).

However, Andrea is also alive in the comics and has a fling w/Rick, but has been long dead on the show...(Or, 'long dead' to us since the seasons take a long time...not in-universe).

 

[JD]

I haven't been on since the episode aired so I just want to share a few thoughts.
Even though I knew there was a pretty good chance Beth was going to die, I was still surprised by how it actually happened. I didn't really notice any of the issues you guys were pointing out, but they don't really bother me that much. We see that kind of stuff in TV shows and movies all the time, and I'm a forgiving person when it comes to that kind of stuff.
I have to admit, I was kind of surprised how quite things were, other than the end. I was honestly half expecting another big Woodbury type battle.

 

[bbjeg]

^I expected a big battle too but still liked the mutual stand down.

 

[Silvercrest]

Good points--there was no good reason to have Noah there. Even if one of the hostages mentioned him to Dawn, Rick could have lied, saying once he (Noah) provided help, he took one of the cars, heading for home. Noah only appears to give Dawn a reason to anger Beth

In terms of story plot and group strategy, this is true. From another perspective, though: They'd have a hard time getting him to stay behind. Noah is a good kid and obviously felt responsible for Beth. I think he'd insist on being there regardless.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Rosita outlives Abraham in the comics and is still alive and I don't think they would kill her just yet. They shouldn't especially since she's drop dead gorgeous and doesn't mind standing up to Abraham even after they 'made the beast with two backs' (i.e. she's cool).

However, Andrea is also alive in the comics and has a fling w/Rick, but has been long dead on the show...(Or, 'long dead' to us since the seasons take a long time...not in-universe).

I don't know. Any time a "B" or "C" character experienced or expressed any kind of hope, they usually meet their end:

Beth: rescued, and literally walking toward the doors to freedom...but makes her "what the--?" pointless attack.

Axel: seemed to be getting along with / being accepted by Rick's group...only to be shot in the head by the Governor.

Hershel: preached hope and reconciliation right up to his beheading.

Andrea: escaped the Governor, and was literally outside the prison...only to be captured (and for some reason, did not put up a fight against a guy who just exhausted himself in a building filled with walkers). The rest is history.

I place Rositia & Tara in the same position, only Rosita could be in greater danger, as she's now seeking approval (worth) from Glenn. In order to prove her worth--and thinking she's going to contribute to greater safety than they've ever known, pays a price.

As for Tara, despite Maggie (initially) not blaming her for Hershel's death, now in the wake of Beth's murder, Maggie could revoke that thought. In a bigger picture sense, she might argue that Tara's support of the Governor (no matter how limited) strengthened his position, ultimately leading to the fall of the prison--and Beth into the hands of Dawn.

That kind of tension could lead her to move along the same theoretical lines as Rosita...and you know what...

Good points--there was no good reason to have Noah there. Even if one of the hostages mentioned him to Dawn, Rick could have lied, saying once he (Noah) provided help, he took one of the cars, heading for home. Noah only appears to give Dawn a reason to anger Beth

In terms of story plot and group strategy, this is true. From another perspective, though: They'd have a hard time getting him to stay behind. Noah is a good kid and obviously felt responsible for Beth. I think he'd insist on being there regardless.

I agree that he would want to be there, but knowing how controlling Dawn was, it made no sense for Noah to risk it.

 

[bbjeg]

...
I place Rositia & Tara in the same position, only Rosita could be in greater danger, as she's now seeking approval (worth) from Glenn. In order to prove her worth--and thinking she's going to contribute to greater safety than they've ever known, pays a price.

As for Tara, despite Maggie (initially) not blaming her for Hershel's death, now in the wake of Beth's murder, Maggie could revoke that thought. In a bigger picture sense, she might argue that Tara's support of the Governor (no matter how limited) strengthened his position, ultimately leading to the fall of the prison--and Beth into the hands of Dawn.

That kind of tension could lead her to move along the same theoretical lines as Rosita...

Sounds like someone should start a "Who'll die next" Thread.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

...
I place Rositia & Tara in the same position, only Rosita could be in greater danger, as she's now seeking approval (worth) from Glenn. In order to prove her worth--and thinking she's going to contribute to greater safety than they've ever known, pays a price.

As for Tara, despite Maggie (initially) not blaming her for Hershel's death, now in the wake of Beth's murder, Maggie could revoke that thought. In a bigger picture sense, she might argue that Tara's support of the Governor (no matter how limited) strengthened his position, ultimately leading to the fall of the prison--and Beth into the hands of Dawn.

That kind of tension could lead her to move along the same theoretical lines as Rosita...

Sounds like someone should start a "Who'll die next" Thread.

It seems like any thread on TWD almost demands sub topics of the "death list," as the producers pretty much guarantee significant deaths every season, which cannot be separated from the main plot.

 

[Trekker4747]

Seems like we only get a couple of "big deaths" per season.

Season 1 was a lot of the "red shirts" from the Atlanta Quarry.

Season 2 was Dale, Shane and Sophia. (Though she was hardly a "big death" and more of plot point.)

Season 3 was Lori, Andrea and T-Dog (though he was a non-entity at that point.) Merle though he was a one-season shot "bad guy" or duplicitous character and then a handful of "red shirt" characters acquired at the prison.

Season 4 was Herschel and... Did anyone else of note die in season 4? The girls but they weren't really major characters, the prison "red shirts" and The Governor, a villain, but no major deaths in our main cast. Even Karen was sort of a non-entity more or less.

Season 5 so-far we've had Bob and Beth. We've got a bloated cast but we're more-or-less at par with or "big deaths" for a season. We've got a couple "extras" who could maybe be killed off without hearting future plot lines or anything (Tara, mostly) but overall I think we're good on not having any more major deaths for the rest of the season. And if there is one it'll likely be someone more-or-less unimportant like Tara or maybe Sasha. (and Carol! )