TVH is very much Trek, and good Trek at that. It deals with contemporary issues (pollution and conservation) and succeeds in telling a human story without the need for a villain of the week.
The Voyage Home: Star Trek in name only?
- Thread starter Commander Kielbasa
- Start date
You were -- and you took the opportunity to instead to try to lump with people who don't like the new Trek movies -- which has zero to do with this thread. You also assumed I really hate TVH which I don't but you just have your agenda and preset things you want to say. Enjoy yourself.
And besides the complaints about the poor FX -- the number one complaint of TFF is the rampant stupid humor but you want to say that the forced humor doesn't make it a comedy. You right, it doesn't -- it makes it a pretty interesting stand alone Trek movie ruined by comedy. The powers that be, assumed the path to crossover success was lots of humor -- which in fact was wrong. The legacy of TVH is the last two movies had forced humor bringing their overall quality down. I find that result regrettable. For me the fun of TVH wasn't worth the last 3 movies having too much (IMO) humor.
And besides the complaints about the poor FX -- the number one complaint of TFF is the rampant stupid humor but you want to say that the forced humor doesn't make it a comedy. You right, it doesn't -- it makes it a pretty interesting stand alone Trek movie ruined by comedy. The powers that be, assumed the path to crossover success was lots of humor -- which in fact was wrong. The legacy of TVH is the last two movies had forced humor bringing their overall quality down. I find that result regrettable. For me the fun of TVH wasn't worth the last 3 movies having too much (IMO) humor.
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Thanks for explaining my agenda to me. I had no idea. Never crossed my mind I had one. Here I thought I was killing some time on a message board between loads in a video game, having some fun arguing able irrelevant things - hence the jokes about Riley's dances and LDS. I had no idea I was offended and demonstrating a superior intellect.
Yes, I linked your comments to the ones being made about NuTrek. I also linked them to comments made about TNG. Because your comments match up to them pretty well and I found it amusing. It's been awhile since I've seen people complaining they didn't pay enough attention to the real fans, they did too much for the mainstream, if they'd focused more on the fans money they'd have made more outside of the Kelvinverse. A blast from the past.
My posting concerning TFF was strictly in response to your listing it as a comedy in your percentage game to try and prove that no movie Trek should be a comedy because only a certain percent of the shows episodes were comedies. Here you're acknowledging that it wasn't a comedy, but an adventure movie with bad comedy elements. Sure. Agreed. I don't think that was the worst part of TFF but it was definitely a negative factor.
Yes, I linked your comments to the ones being made about NuTrek. I also linked them to comments made about TNG. Because your comments match up to them pretty well and I found it amusing. It's been awhile since I've seen people complaining they didn't pay enough attention to the real fans, they did too much for the mainstream, if they'd focused more on the fans money they'd have made more outside of the Kelvinverse. A blast from the past.
My posting concerning TFF was strictly in response to your listing it as a comedy in your percentage game to try and prove that no movie Trek should be a comedy because only a certain percent of the shows episodes were comedies. Here you're acknowledging that it wasn't a comedy, but an adventure movie with bad comedy elements. Sure. Agreed. I don't think that was the worst part of TFF but it was definitely a negative factor.
Blah, blah, blah, but that's another thread.
Another thing that came after TVH was the medias belief that simply because TVH made the "most" money -- (Based on the unadjusted gross numbers) -- it was the most popular Trek movie. I think that impression has mostly faded by now and TWOK is presumed to be the favorite.
I wonder how many Trek fans on this forum consider TVH their favorite movie?
Another thing that came after TVH was the medias belief that simply because TVH made the "most" money -- (Based on the unadjusted gross numbers) -- it was the most popular Trek movie. I think that impression has mostly faded by now and TWOK is presumed to be the favorite.
I wonder how many Trek fans on this forum consider TVH their favorite movie?
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TVH is my least-favorite TOS film. Not a bad movie by ANY stretch...just my least-favorite and least re-watched.
That's exactly how I feel. It's not bad. It's very well made. It's well written for what it is. I tend to watch them all I order and I don't avoid it. To me it's just kind of innocuous. It just finishes what TSFS started which is pretending the show/movies are about these seven characters and that's all we need for a good story. So at the end there are no supporting characters to bother with, they have a seemingly identical ship and they are all back in their "proper chairs".
And in TFF we once again start with just the crew and the ship is a mess and 15 minutes to get on with the movie after hilarious antics. I never watch the end of TWOK and fail to wonder what might have been if they hadn't been obsessed with restoring the status quo.
Not really a fair comparison, as TMP came out after 10 years of no live-action Trek. And sequels traditionally make less money than their predecessors. The fact that TVH made substantially more than TSFS proves that it was a bigger hit than the two movies that came before it. And it was a bigger hit because it appealed to a new audience that the previous movies didn't.
And on your last two entries, you've reversed either the titles or the grosses of Star Treks V &VI. Or possibly both.
This is pure supposition. You're assuming that your personal experience of TVH was true of every Trek fan. It wasn't.
And going by your own numbers, TVH sold $50 million dollars worth of tickets more than TSFS. That's a lot.
There are tons of comedic moments in the first three Trek movies. From McCoy commenting that Spock is "as warm and personable as ever" in TMP, to McCoy asking Kirk "Would you like a tranquilizer?" in TWOK, to Kirk asking McCoy "How many fingers?" as he's doing the Vulcan salute, all of them have funny moments.
And has been pointed out by others in this thread, TOS was a very funny show in its own right. Hell, even "The City on the Edge of Forever" has a bit where Kirk says that Spock got his ears caught in a mechanical rice-picker. That no more or less absurd than the "LDS" gag in TVH. And they've both got the same joke at their core: Kirk doesn't know the ins & outs of Earth history as well as he thinks he does.
The difference between TVH and TFF is that TVH had a story-based reason for its humor. It was a fish-out-of-water story. You'll notice that the bookends in the 23rd Century play about as straight as any other Trek film. TFF's big mistake was trying to graft humorous moments onto a story that wasn't especially humorous at its core. Because STIV was such a success, the studio wanted to see the Trek characters do schtick just like they did in TVH. The trouble is, without that fish-out-of-water story element, it just made the characters look foolish and/or incompetent. So you get things like Sulu and Chekov getting lost in the woods and Scotty knocking himself out on a low beam after bragging about how well he knows the ship.
By TUC, they course-corrected and the movie had about the same amount of humor as TWOK or TSFS.
Ah. So only your opinion and your personal experience matters to you. You're just going to believe whatever you want to believe, even though the numbers you posted tell a different story. Got it.
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Careful, you posted a logical and thought out refutation of presented points - you're going to be accused of being offended, intellectually superior, and psychoanalyzing posters before being dismissed with a "blah blah blah"
Careful, you posted a logical and thought out refutation of presented points - you're going to be accused of being offended, intellectually superior, and psychoanalyzing posters before being dismissed with a "blah blah blah"
I'll take "Intellectually superior," though.
I disagree completely that TUC was a course-correction. The tongue-in-cheek, wink-wink and even har-har moments in TUC are plentiful (admittedly not as bad a TFF) in that film, and really rip me out of the story. It was a story that didn't take itself seriously enough, and as a result doesn't have the dramatic impact on me that I would expect with a premise as intense as brinksmanship with the Klingon Empire.
TVH is totally Star Trek.
Lighthearted? Sure. But falling flat? I couldn't agree, because it manages to entertain.
Also, the epilogue sequence in spacedock going to the "A" is one of my favorite scenes involving the main cast in any of the films.
Lighthearted? Sure. But falling flat? I couldn't agree, because it manages to entertain.
Also, the epilogue sequence in spacedock going to the "A" is one of my favorite scenes involving the main cast in any of the films.
People sure like to attack. LOL. And make really long posts!
Qucikly I hope...
I showed the adjusted grosses just for information. Obviously people were starved for trek after 10 years.
I did reverse the last two movies but the dollars are correct for all the movies listed.
Yes, I am guessing TVH sold more tickets to casual moviegoers and possibly less to diehards. That is obviously impossible to prove.
"Tons of comedic moments" is not the same thing as a comedy and there is no doubt the following movies were mandated to be more comedic. TFF abd TUC have more "comedy" than TMP, TWOK and TSFS and more sadly more superfluous comedy.
And this.......
Ah. So only your opinion and your personal experience matters to you. You're just going to believe whatever you want to believe, even though the numbers you posted tell a different story. Got it.
this is just a childish attack that twists everything I said to make me seem something I am not. If I wanted to say that BS you just posted I would have said it.
I simply meant that I didn't really care if they expanded the audience or not or if were trying to, by making TVH what it was or whatever. I just didn't feel what came after was nearly as good as what came before. I think the legacy of TVH was too much or unneeded comedy in 5 and 6. Everybody has their own opinion and that happens to be mine. And ah, yes, my opinion of what I like in Trek is most important to me. If other people like other things then that is ok. If all Trek was like I, Mudd -- I would never watch trek again and or course I wouldn't care if others thought that was awesome. That would be an awesome show to them and I show I wouldn't watch. My opinion matters the most to me. That goes without saying. But I agree with all the other trek fans on at least some subject and many I agree with most of their opinions.
But I'd like to hear what others think about TVH and the OP question. MIne is simple. Yes it's Trek and it good, but I don't think it's great Trek and I don't think the legacy of it was helpful to the remainder of the series.
Qucikly I hope...
I showed the adjusted grosses just for information. Obviously people were starved for trek after 10 years.
I did reverse the last two movies but the dollars are correct for all the movies listed.
Yes, I am guessing TVH sold more tickets to casual moviegoers and possibly less to diehards. That is obviously impossible to prove.
"Tons of comedic moments" is not the same thing as a comedy and there is no doubt the following movies were mandated to be more comedic. TFF abd TUC have more "comedy" than TMP, TWOK and TSFS and more sadly more superfluous comedy.
And this.......
Ah. So only your opinion and your personal experience matters to you. You're just going to believe whatever you want to believe, even though the numbers you posted tell a different story. Got it.
this is just a childish attack that twists everything I said to make me seem something I am not. If I wanted to say that BS you just posted I would have said it.
I simply meant that I didn't really care if they expanded the audience or not or if were trying to, by making TVH what it was or whatever. I just didn't feel what came after was nearly as good as what came before. I think the legacy of TVH was too much or unneeded comedy in 5 and 6. Everybody has their own opinion and that happens to be mine. And ah, yes, my opinion of what I like in Trek is most important to me. If other people like other things then that is ok. If all Trek was like I, Mudd -- I would never watch trek again and or course I wouldn't care if others thought that was awesome. That would be an awesome show to them and I show I wouldn't watch. My opinion matters the most to me. That goes without saying. But I agree with all the other trek fans on at least some subject and many I agree with most of their opinions.
But I'd like to hear what others think about TVH and the OP question. MIne is simple. Yes it's Trek and it good, but I don't think it's great Trek and I don't think the legacy of it was helpful to the remainder of the series.
I'll take "Intellectually superior," though.
Too bad, no intellectually superior for you, just attacking childishly with really long posts
Yes, this exactly. You said it better than I have been trying to. It was an attempted/partial course correction.
It did not take itself seriously enough
and it lessened the dramatic impact of the final movie.
The translation scene was indeed forced on Meyer and Nichols hated it. The movie as so nicely set-up by the ominous opening music is constantly shooting itself in the foot with silly asides that can be traced back to TVH. It's not the fault of TVH, but it is the result of TVH.
And yes I recognize the well done comedic bits in the first 3 movies. TWOK would simply not have had some of those scenes in TUC because that's not where Trek was in 1982. That's where it was in 1991. Silly stuff (not witty stuff) was expected by that point.
I agree with this assessment. It was a decent enough movie as a stand-alone, but it was costly to the franchise in the long run in that the morons who ran the studio felt that this was the key to making more money and tried to artificially infuse humor in the next 2 films, largely to questionable effect.
I guess we'll just have to take your word for that, since you never bothered listing a source for your data.
You're right. That point is absolutely impossible to prove.
Well, sorry, I can only respond to what you actually wrote, not what you meant to say but didn't. And here's what you wrote again:
And what you wrote was that you didn't care if STIV expanded the audience or not. Not the same thing at all.
Gee, I don't know where I could have ever gotten the idea that you only care about your own opinion.
...Yep. That sure is a mystery.
And when it comes to "childish," you're the one who responded to another poster with "blah blah blah."
...Where in the world did you get that idea? That scene wasn't "forced" on Meyer. He co-wrote the script and directed the film. Nichols objected to the logic of it, but Meyer said that it would be an endearing & funny moment. He was right.
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It was box office mojo.
Isn't everybody's own opinion of entertainment the most important? To me. And yours is most important to you. I don't get your point. If opera was everybody's favorite entertainment it still wouldn't be mine and I would respect other people liking it, but my opinion of what I like would steer my choices.
And on the last thing, Meyer did not have that scene in earlier drafts and he has stated they asked him to add more funny bits and he felt that was a reasonable place to insert one. It was not something he wanted there on his own. And he may have stated somewhere it was "endearing" but I heard his commentary and I don't think he said that there. And he has mellowed a lot over the years and he wasn't going to be bitter about something like that. But I don't find it endearing or funny -- just stupid. It gets a laugh from some folks I guess. Do you think it fits in the movie.
And this quote/misquote about expanding the audience....
Gosh, I don't think it expanded the audience. Do you? By much?
What I was trying to say was that whether they intended or didn't intend to expand the audience by making a contemporary comedy and whether or not it worked -- I think THEY thought it did and because of that in my opinion it weakened the series from then on out.
But you've worn me out. So since the other guy assumed for some reason I was in the group that didn't like Nutrek -- I guess I don't and whatever you say I said I must believe! Peace.
Isn't everybody's own opinion of entertainment the most important? To me. And yours is most important to you. I don't get your point. If opera was everybody's favorite entertainment it still wouldn't be mine and I would respect other people liking it, but my opinion of what I like would steer my choices.
And on the last thing, Meyer did not have that scene in earlier drafts and he has stated they asked him to add more funny bits and he felt that was a reasonable place to insert one. It was not something he wanted there on his own. And he may have stated somewhere it was "endearing" but I heard his commentary and I don't think he said that there. And he has mellowed a lot over the years and he wasn't going to be bitter about something like that. But I don't find it endearing or funny -- just stupid. It gets a laugh from some folks I guess. Do you think it fits in the movie.
And this quote/misquote about expanding the audience....
Gosh, I don't think it expanded the audience. Do you? By much?
What I was trying to say was that whether they intended or didn't intend to expand the audience by making a contemporary comedy and whether or not it worked -- I think THEY thought it did and because of that in my opinion it weakened the series from then on out.
But you've worn me out. So since the other guy assumed for some reason I was in the group that didn't like Nutrek -- I guess I don't and whatever you say I said I must believe! Peace.
