I started a thread the other day about hating Ezri, so dont think I just love bad-mouthing stuff, but did anyone else not like 'The Visitor'?? Everyone seems to love it and its on all the top tens, but I found it really annoying, then I watched it with my parents are they found it really annoying!
The Visitor?
- Thread starter TheLobes
- Start date
Perhaps you could actually explain what you found annoying in the episode.
^ And there you have it.
Personally, I don't find it annoying at all, and believe it to be one of the 5 best episodes of Star Trek, period.
But perhaps if the OP told us what, specifically, he found annoying, a discussion might come out of this.
Personally, I don't find it annoying at all, and believe it to be one of the 5 best episodes of Star Trek, period.
But perhaps if the OP told us what, specifically, he found annoying, a discussion might come out of this.
Good point.
In fact, I just got done reading a thread where Move Along Home was included in one poster's "Best Stand-alone Episodes of DS9" list. And until today, I thought that episode was pretty much universally hated. In 8 years of modding this forum, I really cannot recall seeing it on ANY 'Best Of' list before...but there it was, just today!
Apparently, even Move Along Home has it's fans.
Some other episodes that a lot of fans dislike are Meridian, Resurrection, and Chrysalis..all of which I like myself!
Still, discussion would be enhanced if the OP told us what, specifically, he found objectionable about The Visitor.
^ I like Move Along Home and I wrote about it a few times 
Not on my "Top" list, but I can re-watch it any time 
I didn't like The Visitor. I was told it was oh-such-a-great episode, so I expected something good and... was bored. I don't know exactly why, because generally I like such emotional, character development, or what-would-happen-if episodes, but here? It was sloooow and felt flaaaaat.
Not on my "Top" list, but I can re-watch it any time I didn't like The Visitor. I was told it was oh-such-a-great episode, so I expected something good and... was bored. I don't know exactly why, because generally I like such emotional, character development, or what-would-happen-if episodes, but here? It was sloooow and felt flaaaaat.
^ I like Move Along Home and I wrote about it a few times
I said it that way to Jono because it was his post in the other thread I was talking about.
Still, I am surprised about all this like, because that episode has never been any sort of favorite around here.
Well, I think you hit on your problem: the hype. So many times otherwise good things are ruined by hype, because people set their expectations too high.
I love The Visitor - probably my 3rd (or 4th, depending upon how you count double episodes) favorite episode of Trek (after In the Pale Moonlight and Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast). But obviously I saw it before the hype about it got going; ie. when it originally aired. I'm not sure how I'd feel if I'd listened to a ton of hype before seeing it.
PK--Wouldn't give "Move Along Home" a top slot for "best episode," but I WOULD call it a very sentimental episode, one that I saw at the right time in my growing up, that I could (and still can) appreciate it with a child's eyes.
Sorry, i guess after the Ezri post I just didnt want to be the guy who comes in and says everything sucks. But here we go...
I thought the actual idea was ok, but most of it, especially the scenes with old Jake and his fangirl, were horribly overacted and overwritten. Those two were also terrible actors. These three things made the whole concept of the story ridiculous to me, I felt the bad writing and acting got in the way of what was essentially a simple story, and made the characters seem artificial and wooden. For me this made those characters impossible to sympathise with, they just didnt seem real to me.
I actually think this is a major problem with most trek, but especially DS9. Often a character will stand up and make a long speech about how somethin affects them, where they could have made more impact if they said half as much. I suppose this fits in with the theatrical nature of the show, and it does work sometimes, but it ruined 'The Visitor' for me. I wouldnt exactly call it terrible, but compared with other DS9 Id only give it a 3 or 4 out of 10.
I didn't like The Visitor at all, I watched it once and never felt the urge to see it again.
I really didn't like that I watched a random guest star taking over the role of Jake Sisko and most of the episode. I didn't like that Ben popped in and out of Jake's life and was just like "Oh, so you did this and that ... I love you, bye!" pretty much every time. Maybe I remember it wrong, but from Sisko's perspective no time passed between his appearances, so shouldn't he be a little bit more shocked that in a matter of hours Jake ages to an old man and he misses decades?
The entire episode was about Jake whining how he failed at saving his dad, illustrated by flashbacks featuring guest appearances by the main cast and then he presses a big, fat reset button and *poof*, all events that we saw just disappear from the timeline.
What was the point of the episode? It's not like we didn't know before that Ben and Jake truly love each other, there where no revelations in "The Visitor" except that old Jake had no problem whiping out decades of history to save one person. Most people like to throw shit at Janeway for doing just that to save precious Seven and Tuvok. I don't see the difference, but for some reason many people act like Jake did something noble, while Janeway is a selfish cow.
I really didn't like that I watched a random guest star taking over the role of Jake Sisko and most of the episode. I didn't like that Ben popped in and out of Jake's life and was just like "Oh, so you did this and that ... I love you, bye!" pretty much every time. Maybe I remember it wrong, but from Sisko's perspective no time passed between his appearances, so shouldn't he be a little bit more shocked that in a matter of hours Jake ages to an old man and he misses decades?
The entire episode was about Jake whining how he failed at saving his dad, illustrated by flashbacks featuring guest appearances by the main cast and then he presses a big, fat reset button and *poof*, all events that we saw just disappear from the timeline.
What was the point of the episode? It's not like we didn't know before that Ben and Jake truly love each other, there where no revelations in "The Visitor" except that old Jake had no problem whiping out decades of history to save one person. Most people like to throw shit at Janeway for doing just that to save precious Seven and Tuvok. I don't see the difference, but for some reason many people act like Jake did something noble, while Janeway is a selfish cow.
Well I love the episode because it shows what lengths Jake would go to in order to prevent his father from dying. He had a happy life with a wife and career and became obsessed with trying to get his father back and he lost everything. I wish the episode would have delved a little more into that obsession and gave Jake a few dark moments within that obsession. How many of us have lost someone that we would dearly love to see again, even briefly; a grandparent, parent, friend, or even pet? Imagine that person coming back for very brief, random moments and how that would affect you over time.
I agree that some of the dialogue was a little hammy, but that's Star Trek. I also think bringing in Tony Todd to play old Jake was better than trying to put Cirroc Lofton into the old man make up. At 16 years old, he just couldn't have pulled that off.
I agree that some of the dialogue was a little hammy, but that's Star Trek. I also think bringing in Tony Todd to play old Jake was better than trying to put Cirroc Lofton into the old man make up. At 16 years old, he just couldn't have pulled that off.
I didn't like The Visitor at all, I watched it once and never felt the urge to see it again.
I really didn't like that I watched a random guest star taking over the role of Jake Sisko and most of the episode. I didn't like that Ben popped in and out of Jake's life and was just like "Oh, so you did this and that ... I love you, bye!" pretty much every time. Maybe I remember it wrong, but from Sisko's perspective no time passed between his appearances, so shouldn't he be a little bit more shocked that in a matter of hours Jake ages to an old man and he misses decades?
The entire episode was about Jake whining how he failed at saving his dad, illustrated by flashbacks featuring guest appearances by the main cast and then he presses a big, fat reset button and *poof*, all events that we saw just disappear from the timeline.
What was the point of the episode? It's not like we didn't know before that Ben and Jake truly love each other, there where no revelations in "The Visitor" except that old Jake had no problem whiping out decades of history to save one person. Most people like to throw shit at Janeway for doing just that to save precious Seven and Tuvok. I don't see the difference, but for some reason many people act like Jake did something noble, while Janeway is a selfish cow.
Well as someone who thought "the visitor" was outstanding, those are some pretty good points. I guess I think the re-set button is built into a lot of Trek time travel episodes anyway so that's not a big deal to me. And I thought the interactions between adult Jake and Ben were very touching.
To me, fundamentally it was a good STORY. I don't particularly care how it effected the overall arc of DS9 or anything like that. I watch Star Trek for good stories, and this was a good sci-fi story that managed a different twist on a time travel episode, which isn't easy when they'd already done so many.
Although I do think the interactions between adult Jake and the aspiring writer are a bit of a weak point, they're just set-up for the meat of the story.
It's an interesting point that Jake and Janeway both essentially place their own happiness over the universe as a whole.
One difference between Jake and Janeway would be that Janeway's a Starfleet officer whose sworn to uphold things such as the Prime Directive, while Jake never made any such commitments.
I also got less of a sense in "The Visitor" that the universe was getting along just fine without Ben Sisko, but granted we hardly have a lot of exposure to that timeline. Of course, if you believe in the multiverse theory then that timeline's alive and well regardless.
As we largely know Jake as a kid rather than a responsible adult, it would be easy to claim he has less of an understanding of the arguable selfishness of his acts, but as he's an old man by the time he executes his plan I'll admit that seems like a hollow argument.
It might be a valid claim that Jake is less rational when he makes his decision than Janeway is when she makes hers. Jake goes through years of torment and is clearly obsessive by the time he sees his father for the last time...he's let his marriage fall apart so he can bring his dad back, and even Sisko senior seems somewhat appalled by what Jake is doing.
Of course, it's easy enough to argue that this is all rationalization, and that the root of the situation is that (for some) it's much easier to empathize with Jake's situation than with Janeway's.
Hm. I haven't seen The Visitor or Endgame in awhile, but another issue might be that The Visitor doesn't necessarily cast things in a way that endorses Jake's actions, while Endgame appears to paint Janeway as being in the right for screwing with the universe.
One difference between Jake and Janeway would be that Janeway's a Starfleet officer whose sworn to uphold things such as the Prime Directive, while Jake never made any such commitments.
I also got less of a sense in "The Visitor" that the universe was getting along just fine without Ben Sisko, but granted we hardly have a lot of exposure to that timeline. Of course, if you believe in the multiverse theory then that timeline's alive and well regardless.
As we largely know Jake as a kid rather than a responsible adult, it would be easy to claim he has less of an understanding of the arguable selfishness of his acts, but as he's an old man by the time he executes his plan I'll admit that seems like a hollow argument.
It might be a valid claim that Jake is less rational when he makes his decision than Janeway is when she makes hers. Jake goes through years of torment and is clearly obsessive by the time he sees his father for the last time...he's let his marriage fall apart so he can bring his dad back, and even Sisko senior seems somewhat appalled by what Jake is doing.
Of course, it's easy enough to argue that this is all rationalization, and that the root of the situation is that (for some) it's much easier to empathize with Jake's situation than with Janeway's.
Hm. I haven't seen The Visitor or Endgame in awhile, but another issue might be that The Visitor doesn't necessarily cast things in a way that endorses Jake's actions, while Endgame appears to paint Janeway as being in the right for screwing with the universe.
I dont think its really worth comparing Janeway to Jake in this way, because 'The Visitor' was not about the temporal prime directive, or whether it was right to change history, it was about love, and about whether it was right to risk losing your own life just to save someone elses. It was also a character piece about Jake, and, to a lesser extent, about Sisko. In the Janeway screws with time episodes elements of the story focus on whether it right or not, and Janeways position as Captain also implies that this sort of discussion ('is it right?') needs to take place.
In the 'Visitor' this idea is (as far as I remember) not addressed, its never implied that Jake is changing history. Obviously he would have, but thats not what the show is about.
In the 'Visitor' this idea is (as far as I remember) not addressed, its never implied that Jake is changing history. Obviously he would have, but thats not what the show is about.
If long speeches rub you the wrong way on STAR TREK in any of its forms, I would advise you to steer far away from BABYLON 5. I just re-watched a couple of episodes from that series over the weekend. I still enjoy it, but the sheer number of speeches per episodes is enormous (it could have been the two episodes I chose, "The Coming of Shadows" and "Severed Dreams," but I doubt it).
Two excellent points here - and I say this as an otherwise HUGE fan of Janeway (she is my favorite VOY character) who feels that Endgame absolutely ruined her character.
I don't believe there is any comparison between Jake in The Visitor and Janeway in Endgame. Their positions were very different, and as such, they should be held to different standards. And this is not a cop out - this is the way things WERE. Jake was not a Star Fleet Captain with a command level responsibility, and it is unreasonable to hold him to those standards.
And you are right - The Visitor is emotionally satisfying...but it gives no huge positive endorsement of Jake's actions - at least not in the official, Star Fleet sense. It gives US the desire to endorse his actions on an emotional level...but that is not the same as a sworn Star Fleet Admiral breaking the Temporal Prime Directive to make a couple of people 'happy'....and everyone involved being A-Okay with it. Especially since that same character spent the better part of 7 years staunchly UPHOLDING Federation/Star Fleet standards in all manner of peril and opposition. Indeed, if there is a common theme throughout VOY...all the way from the beginning to the episode immediately BEFORE Endgame, it is that Voyager was a Star Fleet Vessel, was run as a Star Fleet Vessel, and that the integrity of the crew and what they stood for would NOT be compromised, just because they were stranded and facing horrible opposition in the DQ.
That seemed to be the message from Janeway. For seven seasons of that show, that was her standard, and she NEVER backed down from it.
And then, in Endgame - poof! "Forget what I said. I didn't like the way things turned out, so I'm gonna fix it".
GAH!
No...as much as I love Janeway, I'm not buyin' that these two situations were even remotely the same.
IMO, B5 is more 'speechy' than is DS9...but to be fair, you did select two of the more 'speechy' episodes. I mean, jeez...Severed Dreams, being a very accurate name for that episode, is about B5's succession from Earth. Did you not expect Sheridan to give a speech as to why they were doing that?
And another one after B5 was attacked by Earthforce and only saved by Delenn and the Minbari? I mean, you have how many thousands of people on that station? Seems like he'd need to keep them informed about the fact that yes, those were our guys shooting at us and the Minbari defending us...and by the way, starting tomorrow, you can't go home because of this pesky little succession issue. But not to worry, because we are in the right here! Under the circumstances depicted in Severed Dreams, I don't see how we could have not spent more than a bit of time on Sheridan giving speeches.
But hey...Severed Dreams is my favorite episode of any scifi show EVER...so as you might imagine, I don't find much fault with that speech...or that entire episode.
Now, if this poster doesn't like speeches, the show he needs to steer clear of is TNG. Good GOD!
Picard is always preaching to one set of natives or another about how much BETTER and more EVOLVED we Federation folks are than them, blah, blah, blah. The speechy...or actually preachy tone of alot of TNG episodes is what basically put me off that show as I sat down to watch the DVD sets when they first came out.
I don't know how many times I just cringed at the 1980's PC nonsense coming out of Picard's mouth.
In fact, one of the main 'criticisms' of DS9 over the years has been that it was NOT Utopian in tone. And at least in my experience, guys down in the trenches just trying to survive to the next day make a lot fewer speeches than guys flying around in Flagships, showing the natives the error of their ways.
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I went into "The Visitor" not expecting to like it at all...or at least not very much. "Way of The Warrior" had brought Worf into the show in a big way that I felt was handled really well, and before that aired, I was really worried that Worf wasn't going to fit well with DS9 and that his inclusion would somehow hurt DS9, which I didn't want - but instead 'WOTW' was filled with continuity and characters and it all worked for me. How could the followup compare to that kind of awesome? I was very sick at the time; I had this crazy flu that was going around and had been taken to the emergency room that morning, I really thought I was dying...and I was writing a lot back then, and "The Visitor" hit me like a fist. I cried during the episode. I thought it was just me, but my sisters, who aren't Trek fans asked about it and they watched it and they cried too. I thought it was perfectly cast and played. I just love every aspect of it.
On a side note, I noticed at the time, that the space that Sisko is in (the white place) is very similar to the one he's in with the Prophets in the pilot episode and I theorized that much of the episode was a vision given to Sisko by the Prophets, just as I later theorized that Dukat's crazy visions in "Waltz" were actually visions of the Pah-Wraiths. I also loved how in the series finale, Jake is shown looking out the window just as he was in "The Visitor" - and how those scenes seemed to resonate with one another. Very cool.
On a side note, I noticed at the time, that the space that Sisko is in (the white place) is very similar to the one he's in with the Prophets in the pilot episode and I theorized that much of the episode was a vision given to Sisko by the Prophets, just as I later theorized that Dukat's crazy visions in "Waltz" were actually visions of the Pah-Wraiths. I also loved how in the series finale, Jake is shown looking out the window just as he was in "The Visitor" - and how those scenes seemed to resonate with one another. Very cool.
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