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The use of the Guardian in "Yesteryear"... Ellison's permission?

Oh, Christopher, Ellison had some valid points about his contracts and all(Roddenberry was very sloppy with legalities, as we all know), it's just that he hammered them all into the ground a long time ago. Admittedly, it's hard to be sympathetic to someone who's latest apparent claim to fame was a draft to a Star Trek episode written and aired before Nixon was president.
 
Admittedly, it's hard to be sympathetic to someone who's latest apparent claim to fame was a draft to a Star Trek episode written and aired before Nixon was president.

Now, that's hardly true. Ellison has has a rich career as an SF novelist, short-story author, television writer, anthology editor, and essayist for decades, both before and after his brush with ST. His 40-year tantrum over getting his ST script treated the way any other script would be treated is beyond pathetic, and hypocritical given that he was one of the show's most stalwart supporters until they dared to mess with his precious words, but that doesn't mean that his great contributions to SF literature should be overlooked.
 
Ellison was also a consultant on Babylon 5 for a while...as well as the voice of the B5 elevator, IIRC.
 
And we can talk "work for hire" til we're green in the face, but without seeing the exact contract Ellison signed, there's no way of knowing for sure if he held onto any rights not in a typical TV contract of the era.

The burden of proof lies on the person making an extraordinary claim, not on the people challenging it. There's no way of knowing for sure that there aren't microscopic alien spy cameras hidden in my hair, but I'd be foolish to assume there were without hard evidence. Unless Ellison can present solid evidence of his unrealistic claim, there's no reason to take it seriously.

And his own actions -- or rather lack thereof -- over the past four decades are evidence that he doesn't have any such rights. He didn't object to "Yesteryear" or to the many uses of the Guardian in Pocket novels and various comic books. If he'd had any legal claim to the concept, any power to grant or deny permission, then surely he would've exercised it many times by now. Instead, he made no objection for decades, and now suddenly in the past couple of years he's claiming to have a right that no TV writer in Hollywood could reasonably be expected to have and that he's never attempted to assert before. That just doesn't pass the smell test.

True, he's a major asshat, but by the same logic, his refusal or plain laziness in prosecuting any right he may have in prior years wouldn't obviate him doing so, now.

It wouldn't be much of a trial if he had a contract with Paramount saying, "Rights of refusal regarding the concept of Guardian of Forever reserved in perpetuity to limit of normal copyright."

But, knowing Ellison, chances are he's just plain being a dick of Ellisonian proportions. As you've noted.
 
Now, that's hardly true. Ellison has has a rich career as an SF novelist, short-story author, television writer, anthology editor, and essayist for decades, both before and after his brush with ST.

Hence the word apparent. Granted, it's probably more that it's his biggest exposure, and is kind of a 'touchstone' for casual science-fiction fans. If your limit of science-fiction is what's on the screen, that is (and, sadly, B5 still counts as 'obscure')...
 
Ellison was also a consultant on Babylon 5 for a while...as well as the voice of the B5 elevator, IIRC.

Ellison was the "conceptual consultant" to Babylon 5, a role similar to the one he had for the 80s The Twlight Zone. He was the voice of the station computer's AI in the third season episode, "Ceremonies of Light and Darkness." In a humorous bit, Garabaldi fires his PPG at the elevator speaker to shut up the nagging AI. Ellison makes an on-screen cameo as a Psi-Cop in "The Face of the Enemy" in a flasback sequence along side his long-time friend Walter Koneig.

Ellison is also best friends with JMS, creator of B5.
 
He's also friends with Dorothy Fontana, who is suspected of doing the final rewrite of COTEOF. She probably called him up and asked his permission for "Yesteryear". Just about anybody else, he would've told 'em to go screw a telephone pole. Sideways.

As for another example of Star Trek granting separation rights in the writer's contract, anybody else remember how T'Pol was originally going to be T'Pau, but was changed to avoid having to pay a boatload of royalties to Ted Sturgeon's estate?
 
Ellison was also a consultant on Babylon 5 for a while...as well as the voice of the B5 elevator, IIRC.

Ellison was the "conceptual consultant" to Babylon 5, a role similar to the one he had for the 80s The Twlight Zone. He was the voice of the station computer's AI in the third season episode, "Ceremonies of Light and Darkness." In a humorous bit, Garabaldi fires his PPG at the elevator speaker to shut up the nagging AI. Ellison makes an on-screen cameo as a Psi-Cop in "The Face of the Enemy" in a flasback sequence along side his long-time friend Walter Koneig.

Ellison is also best friends with JMS, creator of B5.
Ah yes...it's the DETAILS that begin to slide at my age! At least I remembered he was associated with the elevator SOMEhow! :lol:
 
As for another example of Star Trek granting separation rights in the writer's contract, anybody else remember how T'Pol was originally going to be T'Pau, but was changed to avoid having to pay a boatload of royalties to Ted Sturgeon's estate?
Being paid for reuse of characters is standard, though. A couple of the Terminator writers were joking about getting paychecks from the introduction of Jesse on the podcast a few weeks ago.
 
And we can talk "work for hire" til we're green in the face, but without seeing the exact contract Ellison signed, there's no way of knowing for sure if he held onto any rights not in a typical TV contract of the era.

The burden of proof lies on the person making an extraordinary claim, not on the people challenging it.
Given that none of us here has practical experience writing for network television 40 years ago I'd say the shoe's on the other foot. Who are we to say we know how the contract was written? Seems like you're the one making the extraordinary claim here.

I don't see you contradicting the main point of my post, which was that the Guardian was a character that Ellison would be owed payment on if reused, which was my point: we don't know the terms of Ellison's contract, but even if he has no say on if the Guardian is used, but he's most certain to demand payment if it ends up in a major motion picture, and that wields a lot of power in Hollywood. No producer's gonna give up a chunk of profits to someone if they don't have to.
 
As for another example of Star Trek granting separation rights in the writer's contract, anybody else remember how T'Pol was originally going to be T'Pau, but was changed to avoid having to pay a boatload of royalties to Ted Sturgeon's estate?

That's a different issue. As I said above, even under work-for-hire contracts, the creator of a character is entitled to be paid royalties when that character is reused. But the studio still owns the character and has control over what happens to the character. They have to pay you, but they don't have to get your permission. If you don't want them to use your character, you can't stop them; they'll go ahead and use the character over your objections, but they'll still have to send you a check.


I don't see you contradicting the main point of my post, which was that the Guardian was a character that Ellison would be owed payment on if reused, which was my point: we don't know the terms of Ellison's contract, but even if he has no say on if the Guardian is used, but he's most certain to demand payment if it ends up in a major motion picture, and that wields a lot of power in Hollywood. No producer's gonna give up a chunk of profits to someone if they don't have to.

That, of course, is quite true. The royalty issue has prevented fictional characters from being reused before. It's why ENT had T'Pol instead of T'Pau, it's part of why VGR had Tom Paris instead of Nick LoCarno, and it's why Jack O'Neill and Daniel Jackson (created by Dean Devlin and Roland Emmerich) have never appeared in the same Stargate Atlantis episode as Samantha Carter or Teal'c (created by Jonathan Glassner and Brad Wright) -- because that would entail paying royalties to twice as many people. And it may well have been a factor in the filmmakers deciding not to use the Guardian in the movie.

But my point is that that applies regardless of any action Ellison took. He'd be entitled to royalties in any case, whether he's entitled to permission or not. So if royalties were a factor in their decision, the fact that Ellison raised a fuss was irrelevant to that, because it's standard practice anyway, and it's been a factor in the non-reuse of characters whose creators didn't make any fuss at all, or who weren't even aware that their reuse was considered and then rejected.

So I disagree with your characterization of Ellison as "demanding payment." It's a given that he'd be entitled to payment (if it's used in a movie or TV show, not if it's in a novel or comic). As I understand it, Ellison has been claiming that his rights have been violated because he wasn't asked permission, not because of anything to do with compensation. As I explained above, those are two distinct (if easily confused) issues.
 
I don't think it's out of the question that Ellison's contract had a few more proviso's than the average shlub. He had enough pull back then to get a few extra bennies, especially if his agent was even half as tenacious as Harlan is.
 
The royalty issue has prevented fictional characters from being reused before. It's why ENT had T'Pol instead of T'Pau, it's part of why VGR had Tom Paris instead of Nick LoCarno, and it's why Jack O'Neill and Daniel Jackson (created by Dean Devlin and Roland Emmerich) have never appeared in the same Stargate Atlantis episode as Samantha Carter or Teal'c (created by Jonathan Glassner and Brad Wright) -- because that would entail paying royalties to twice as many people.
The Atlantis case is special; it wasn't that they couldn't appear together, it's that only O'Neill and Jackson could be in the pilot. We saw O'Neill on Atlantis with other SG-1 characters (Landry, Harriman, Lee, and Siler)--and Harriman was in the first SG-1 episode as Carter/Teal'c were.

I'd always taken that as Glassner having been entitled to royalties on all future episodes of Atlantis if any of his characters were reused in the pilot. I must admit I haven't actually gone and read the Writers Guild of Canada's standard terms, though.
 
...but he's most certain to demand payment if it ends up in a major motion picture, and that wields a lot of power in Hollywood.

So I disagree with your characterization of Ellison as "demanding payment." It's a given that he'd be entitled to payment...
I wasn't characterizing him that way, despite your cherry-picking one sentence that used the word "demand".
 
They should have used it in Trek XI, only they should have called it "The Krispy Kreme of Forever".
 
"...Ellison has has a rich career as an SF novelist, short-story author, television writer, anthology editor, and essayist for decades..." Well, not quite. He has never published an SF novel, although introductions to his stories over the years have alluded to two novels-in-the-works that I recall: Blood's a Rover (expansion of "A Boy and His Dog," evidently) and Dial 9 to Get Out. They ended up wherever The Last Dangerous Visions did, perhaps.
 
And his own actions -- or rather lack thereof -- over the past four decades are evidence that he doesn't have any such rights. He didn't object to "Yesteryear" or to the many uses of the Guardian in Pocket novels and various comic books. If he'd had any legal claim to the concept, any power to grant or deny permission, then surely he would've exercised it many times by now. Instead, he made no objection for decades, and now suddenly in the past couple of years he's claiming to have a right that no TV writer in Hollywood could reasonably be expected to have and that he's never attempted to assert before. That just doesn't pass the smell test.
I've often thought that Ellison would have been better off writing for television in the UK, where writers (like Terry Nation's control over the Daleks) have more rights to control their creations. :)

Ellison owns the original script (due to the WGA Minimum Basic, and this is where Lincoln Enterprises got into trouble with the WGA by selling scripts without compensating the writers), and CBS owns the episode, which is very different. Reading Ellison, I get the impression that his argument is that elements of his script in the episode belong to him, because they wouldn't exist if he hadn't written the script (which everyone agrees belongs to him).

A report on Ellison's legal filing against CBS added a new wrinkle -- that Desilu's initial copyright filing on the filmed episode itself is defective and also didn't come until the mid-70s.

I think Ellison is throwing mud up against the wall to see what sticks.

And whatever happens, Ellison will claim it as a victory.
 
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