The Undiscovered Country Engine Room

[Timo]

Lithium circuits (early S1) were changed to Dilithium circuits (later S1 and onward). S1 Engine Room grew in height, added a 2nd floor and shrank in depth in S2. Between S2 and S3 that engine room's alcove area underwent changes as it went from open to enclosed. And M5, don't want to forget about that modification.

See, I also disbelieve in this happening within the confines of Kirk's mission.

Lithium to dilithium would be a mere terminology change, or perhaps evidence of a robust, "multifuel" engine where just about anything can be articulated in the frame, be it crown jewels, dilithium microcrystals, paralithium suspension or trilithium resin.

Different engine room sets would simply mean different corners of the already established "maze" of Main Engineering.

And M5 was explicitly hailed as a big change (even when it was merely another system hooked on to consume power, not really different from Spock installing a new dynoscanner in his lab, or Kirk getting a more powerful jacuzzi), while nothing else engineering-related was.

It is different from TNG's dilithium being an antimatter regulator that is used to control the matter/antimatter reaction. I don't ever recall that it is being able to be bypassed in TNG or used in a manner like TOS.

The one time we saw a TNG ship act without even a shard of dilithium, major things were shut down, including the rare shutdown of all the blue and red lights on the nacelles ("Skin of Evil"). Then again, a ship explicitly lacking main power was seen lighting up its nacelles without effort, too ("Peak Performance").

Apparently, in TOS, main power bypass calls for a "converter assembly". It sounds like the dilithium should be part of that assembly, i.e. dilithium would be playing a role in the assembly in converting something to something. Why not annihilation energies to warp energies, like in TNG (and apparently also ENT)? In TNG (backstage) technobabble, dilithium contains and focuses the annihilation; alternate, less efficient means for that could easily be postulated, probably involving forcefields instead of magic crystals. Such a dilithium-free forcefield focus might fit TOS and TNG evidence alike. It would take some "rigging" because said forcefield would normally merely guide the energies to and from the crystal; with the crystal gone, the forcefield gullet would have to be recontoured to achieve the same sort of focus...

Eject the crystals in TNG and the M/AM core shuts down from a lack of regulator. Very different premise between the series.

The only difference might be that TOS ships had multiple parallel paths or "circuits", each with its dilithium crystal or paddle, while TNG ships utilize a single circuit. Simplification and streamlining as a consequence of increasing reliability is a sound and plausible development.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sean_McCormick]

In western movies, it often looks like the stagecoach wheels are turning backwards.... maybe the apparent direction of the pulse seen is not consistent with the actual direction, as a consequence of how the scene is being recorded.

(Note: This is an attempt at "humor".....)

Actually, this could have been a valid explanation...

The effect comes from the fact, that film or video does not show actual movement but a fast sequence of not moving images, the segmentation of the movement so to speak.

Since the TNG-Warpcore is made from a series of segments, that are lit in succession to another to create an illusion of movement, at a specific "speed" the movement would seem to go upwarts.

 

[blssdwlf]

See, I also disbelieve in this happening within the confines of Kirk's mission.

I think we're going to just have to disagree.

(Now we don't normally hear of any upgrade or changes unless something goes wrong. We never did hear about the change from S1 to S2 engine room expansion or any of the minor or major upgrades that would occur. But if something goes wrong like M5 or the computer's female personality modification in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" then we hear about it.)

It is different from TNG's dilithium being an antimatter regulator that is used to control the matter/antimatter reaction. I don't ever recall that it is being able to be bypassed in TNG or used in a manner like TOS.

The one time we saw a TNG ship act without even a shard of dilithium, major things were shut down, including the rare shutdown of all the blue and red lights on the nacelles ("Skin of Evil"). Then again, a ship explicitly lacking main power was seen lighting up its nacelles without effort, too ("Peak Performance").

Even though the 80 year old ship in "Peak Performance" had the glowing nacelles (the TOS movie kind), it doesn't indicate warp power status since the dialogue stated at that same time no warp power was available due to a lack of antimatter.

Apparently, in TOS, main power bypass calls for a "converter assembly". It sounds like the dilithium should be part of that assembly, i.e. dilithium would be playing a role in the assembly in converting something to something.

Yes - In S3 "Elaan of Troyius" it is apparent that the dilithium is part of the converter assembly. Backtrack to S2 "The Paradise Syndrome" and you can see they were using it as such in an earlier episode. We know in S1 "Mudd's Women" they used a converter assembly as well but were never shown it. We're going to probably disagree on this but I believe S1 "The Alternative Factor" showed us the converter assembly. In anycase, through all three seasons the dilithium must be doing some converting (hence the name) although in operation it is also described as charging/discharging very much like a laptop battery.

Why not annihilation energies to warp energies, like in TNG (and apparently also ENT)? In TNG (backstage) technobabble, dilithium contains and focuses the annihilation; alternate, less efficient means for that could easily be postulated, probably involving forcefields instead of magic crystals. Such a dilithium-free forcefield focus might fit TOS and TNG evidence alike. It would take some "rigging" because said forcefield would normally merely guide the energies to and from the crystal; with the crystal gone, the forcefield gullet would have to be recontoured to achieve the same sort of focus...

That's an idea.

So in TNG it is

1. Matter -> Dilithium <- Antimatter
2. Dilithium-regulated reaction energy (in the form of warp plasma? )
3. Split to warp engines and other power systems

and in TOS it is

1. Matter -> M/AM Energy <- Antimatter
2. M/AM Energy fed (via force fields) to charge Lithium/Dilithium Crystals
3. Crystal energy fed to ship's systems

 

[Captain Robert April]

I think the room we saw in "The Alternative Factor" was more of a charging station, to prep the crystals for use in the converter assembly, which we never saw in the first season.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I always wondered why Lt. Masters was in charge of re-energizing the crystals yet she wore sciences blue yet her assistant wore red. Why would the re-energization be under two departments?

 

[Mytran]

I always wondered why Lt. Masters was in charge of re-energizing the crystals yet she wore sciences blue yet her assistant wore red. Why would the re-energization be under two departments?

It's a Scientific procedure performed for the Engineering dept

 

[Mytran]

... S1 Engine Room grew in height, added a 2nd floor and shrank in depth in S2. Between S2 and S3 that engine room's alcove area underwent changes as it went from open to enclosed.

The extensive changes are what still convinces me that we were looking at 2 different rooms. There's a LOT of rebuilding and support structure reorganising (inside a ship on active duty) for seemingly very little gain.
Here's the sets overlaid:

And here's how it might look on board ship, step by step construction:

As I said on an earlier thread - is it possible? Yes. Plausible? Unlikely.

 

[Galileo7]

Undiscovered Country 1701-A Engineering Room with Scotty was a quick use of the standing NG 1701-D Engineering set. The camera angle looking down from above was a good attempt that Meyer did to conceal the obvious NG set being used. Here is a link to Star Trek interior sets re-used:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/reused_interiors.htm

Here is another link to NG set used in UC:
http://www.utopiaplanitia.info/ships/1701d/engineering.gif

.

 

[blssdwlf]

I always wondered why Lt. Masters was in charge of re-energizing the crystals yet she wore sciences blue yet her assistant wore red. Why would the re-energization be under two departments?

Probably the same reason that sciences blue Lt Cmdr Spock gives Scotty the critical intermix formula in "Naked Time" and helps calculate various engineering related stuff as seen in "That Which Survives" and "The Motion Picture".

Lt Masters was probably necessary to oversee the re-amp procedure at the energiser because she, like Spock, had the extra skills to do what needed to be done or there was extra concern on the state of the crystals from the sudden discharge that got sciences involved.

@Mytran

The extensive changes are what still convinces me that we were looking at 2 different rooms. There's a LOT of rebuilding and support structure reorganising (inside a ship on active duty) for seemingly very little gain.

I think that's a valid argument for an active duty ship but consider that the computer system as affected in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" would require a minimum 3 week overhaul at a starbase. The burnt out stardrive from "That Which Survives" might need a couple months at the minimum. Or the damage from "The Doomsday Machine", "The Immunity Syndrome", etc might incur even more time at the ol'Starbase. There probably should be a FAQ on time spent by the Enterprise at a Starbase for repairs and overhauls

Considering it took less than two years to redesign and refit the old Enterprise into the TMP one, imagine how little time would be needed to tear out the S1 Engine Rooms and replace them with the S2 version that incorporated access to the energiser in the floor.

As to the gain, perhaps Scotty felt it was more important to have direct access to the dilithium crystals from the engine room than having to trudge up to energiser room. Or the switch from lithium to dilithium worked on the S1 energisers but Starfleet came up with a better energiser design and applied it to all their Constitution-class ships.

 

[Captain Robert April]

I prefer to think the whole lithium/dilithium thing had more to do with a change in terminology. Specifically, they've always used dilithium, but at some point it became common to just refer to the material as just "lithium" (probably the end result of phonetic laziness: "die-lithium" to "duh-lithium" to "d'lithium" to just plain "lithium").

Then the various science officers, backed up by OIC Starfleet Sciences Division, let it be known that the substance is dilithium, not lithium, and will be referred to as such henceforth.

 

[Mytran]

I think that's a valid argument for an active duty ship but consider that the computer system as affected in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" would require a minimum 3 week overhaul at a starbase. The burnt out stardrive from "That Which Survives" might need a couple months at the minimum. Or the damage from "The Doomsday Machine", "The Immunity Syndrome", etc might incur even more time at the ol'Starbase. There probably should be a FAQ on time spent by the Enterprise at a Starbase for repairs and overhauls

I agree on that last part, certainly! Always happy to read more stats on the old gal. Anyone up for the job?

Considering it took less than two years to redesign and refit the old Enterprise into the TMP one, imagine how little time would be needed to tear out the S1 Engine Rooms and replace them with the S2 version that incorporated access to the energiser in the floor.

Fair enough, although it's probably easier to "re-plumb" a starship when it's in pieces for several months rather than a 2 week overhaul.

As to the gain, perhaps Scotty felt it was more important to have direct access to the dilithium crystals from the engine room than having to trudge up to energiser room. Or the switch from lithium to dilithium worked on the S1 energisers but Starfleet came up with a better energiser design and applied it to all their Constitution-class ships.

That's the only real gain though. And doesn't require ripping out bulkheads and reducing the overall working space to do it. Why not just install the "floor thingamabob" into the existing engine room?

 

[Timo]

Considering it took less than two years to redesign and refit the old Enterprise into the TMP one

Or then a decade. We have no idea when ST:TMP took place, beyond it happening in the 2270s, and 2.5 years after TOS at a minimum.

On the terminology issue, the TNG/VOY introduction of trilithium and paralithium is IMHO enough justification for asserting that there's a whole family of substances out there that all

a) are useful for warp power propulsion and
b) are sufficietly related to lithium to have that element name as part of their trade name.

Obviously, even the "lithium" that Scotty speaks of can't be the element Li and nothing more. Pure Li won't do squat for warp power and won't even stay crystalline. But "lithium" could quite plausibly be shorthand for thoroughbred dilithium, lackluster paralithium, only-fools-and-saints trilithium and the intriguingly transdimensional if magnetically anomalious monolithium alike.

There probably should be a FAQ on time spent by the Enterprise at a Starbase for repairs and overhauls

...Listing these both in terms of Scotty's repair time estimates and evidence of the real passage of time between relevant episodes.

I mean, Scotty said the warp engines were down for good in "Paradise Syndrome", and the ship would thus either need to be towed to a repair base or visited by a well-equipped tender. A valid case for assuming a repair break of several months, eh? Yet the episode starts with stardate 4842, takes two months sharp, and then the repairs can commence. "The Enterprise Incident" has our characters back on track on stardate 5027. We might then well argue that the repairs took a bit less than a month, if one-fifth of a stardate year included both those two months of the first adventure and the repair time.

Stardates may not be the most reliable way to do this, of course. But other, perhaps less ambiguous time references could also be tracked down.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

There probably should be a FAQ on time spent by the Enterprise at a Starbase for repairs and overhauls

I agree on that last part, certainly! Always happy to read more stats on the old gal. Anyone up for the job?

Now on my to-do-list, but some detail oriented folks might beat me to it

Considering it took less than two years to redesign and refit the old Enterprise into the TMP one, imagine how little time would be needed to tear out the S1 Engine Rooms and replace them with the S2 version that incorporated access to the energiser in the floor.

Fair enough, although it's probably easier to "re-plumb" a starship when it's in pieces for several months rather than a 2 week overhaul.

It would be interesting to see what a starship looks like when it is being operated on. How do they replace those floor machinery or the energiser when it gets fused? Or the entire melted star drive?

As to the gain, perhaps Scotty felt it was more important to have direct access to the dilithium crystals from the engine room than having to trudge up to energiser room. Or the switch from lithium to dilithium worked on the S1 energisers but Starfleet came up with a better energiser design and applied it to all their Constitution-class ships.

That's the only real gain though. And doesn't require ripping out bulkheads and reducing the overall working space to do it. Why not just install the "floor thingamabob" into the existing engine room?

I thought they increased the overall working space? The simpler S1 engine room only had one level with only one way in and out. The S2 engine room added that second level, plus the monitoring room plus the alcove (which in a way would make it as long as the S1 engine room and added at least another way in and out. Now thinking more about it, the engine room gained a bunch more implied functionality than the mere 3 wall panels it originally had.

I think that the existing engine room needed the extra workareas and supporing spaces because the floor thingamabob energiser with the dilithium crystals was installed. It probably took up most of the deck below. That side room in the energiser room seen in "The Alternative Factor" where Lt Masters was attacked was probably the equivalent of the Emergency Manual Monitor (with the protecting screen). I can see lots of elements being consolidated into a more efficient room rather than split among several disconnected ones.

 

[blssdwlf]

Considering it took less than two years to redesign and refit the old Enterprise into the TMP one

Or then a decade. We have no idea when ST:TMP took place, beyond it happening in the 2270s, and 2.5 years after TOS at a minimum.

Perhaps the Enterprise already kinda had looked like that by the time the redesign occurred - that we don't know. But we do know that the redesign and refit took 18 months.

SCOTT: A wee problem, sir, really. Just temporary. Admiral, we have just spent eighteen months redesigning and refitting the Enterprise. How in the name of hell do they expect to have her ready in twelve hours?

On the terminology issue, the TNG/VOY introduction of trilithium and paralithium is IMHO enough justification for asserting that there's a whole family of substances out there that all

Yeah - TNG/Voy complicates the terminology up a bit. This is where I think we'll differ again When I'm thinking of TOS I segment them off from TNG/Voy/DS9/Ent as different universes rather than try to hammer them all into one overarching one. I believe most of the events and characters happen across all the universes but each one has its own set of technological rules and specifics.

So in TNG/Voy there is trilithium and paralithium, etc but in TOS there might not be. In TOS, lithium and dilithium are charged and discharged like batteries but in TNG they are used to channel matter and antimatter. The Klingons have ridges head ridges in the movies, TNG and later but not in TOS and mixed in DS9 , one Kirk is alive when Scotty vanishes (TNG) and dead in the movies ("Generations"), etc...

Obviously, even the "lithium" that Scotty speaks of can't be the element Li and nothing more.

Or that not everything works in TOS as we think it should. We have real-world Lithium metal but apparently in TOS they have Lithium crystals. Even "antimatter" is supercharged in TOS. One ounce of antimatter can rip away half the atmosphere of the planet in "Obsession". Now that's power

There probably should be a FAQ on time spent by the Enterprise at a Starbase for repairs and overhauls

...Listing these both in terms of Scotty's repair time estimates and evidence of the real passage of time between relevant episodes.

Not all repair times are from Scotty. Spock gave the weeks of repair time for the computer in "Tomorrow Is Yesterday".

But I would not use stardates for measuring time though - at least not TOS ones anyway. They're dependent on variables that we don't have access too (and were probably arbitrary from the writers.) If at all possible the durations should come from actual mentioning of quantifiable time like "x weeks, days, months, etc."

 

[Timo]

But we do know that the redesign and refit took 18 months.

The designing might have taken decades (indeed, STXI suggests that certain structural solutions used in the TMP refit were already designed in the 2250s). The physical refitting took 18 months - but as you say, we don't know how much was refitted within those months, and how much was refitted before.

We have real-world Lithium metal but apparently in TOS they have Lithium crystals.

We have lithium crystals today, too. They just happen to be crystals containing lithium, not crystals made of lithium. Really, it would be unrealistic to expect any single element to behave in such a fantastic way, be it "our" lithium or "theirs". But a compound, or a structure where lithium is suspended in specific locations that can attain some sort of a fancy resonance with fancy types of radiation... That's more or less chemically and physically plausible.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

I thought they increased the overall working space? The simpler S1 engine room only had one level with only one way in and out. The S2 engine room added that second level, plus the monitoring room plus the alcove (which in a way would make it as long as the S1 engine room and added at least another way in and out. Now thinking more about it, the engine room gained a bunch more implied functionality than the mere 3 wall panels it originally had.

Poor use of words on my part. I was referring to to the distance between the large grill and the opposite wall, which was moved 4' closer for S2. In terms of a real-life refit, a very unneccessary piece of work. And we really don't know how much space the S1 room had, because the view was blocked most of the time by the two Large Power Units.

I think that the existing engine room needed the extra workareas and supporing spaces because the floor thingamabob energiser with the dilithium crystals was installed. It probably took up most of the deck below. That side room in the energiser room seen in "The Alternative Factor" where Lt Masters was attacked was probably the equivalent of the Emergency Manual Monitor (with the protecting screen). I can see lots of elements being consolidated into a more efficient room rather than split among several disconnected ones.

That's a cogent argument and makes a lot of sense, development wise (bringing disparate components together). I'm still stuck on the unneccessary building work though...

 

[blssdwlf]

But we do know that the redesign and refit took 18 months.

The designing might have taken decades (indeed, STXI suggests that certain structural solutions used in the TMP refit were already designed in the 2250s). The physical refitting took 18 months - but as you say, we don't know how much was refitted within those months, and how much was refitted before.

I dunno - Scotty was very specific about the duration of both the redesign and refit. The ST:XI tie in is tenuous at best when it is questionable which universe Nero and Spock pop up in, IMO

Really, it would be unrealistic to expect any single element to behave in such a fantastic way, be it "our" lithium or "theirs".

How realistic is TNG's dilithium element which can be used align antimatter and not blow up? If we can accept how elements are defined in TNG, then why not accept how TOS defined their elements?

 

[blssdwlf]

And we really don't know how much space the S1 room had, because the view was blocked most of the time by the two Large Power Units.

I was looking through "The Enemy Within" and it doesn't look like the room goes much further sideways past the vertical power conduit. There is a quick cut where Kirk turns around and you see nothing but a blank wall behind him. But there does appear that you can walk further back (side of the grill cathedral section).

 

[Captain Robert April]

I figure something like this...

Season One Engine Room forward, S2+ aft, since the dilithium has to be somewhere between the M/ARC and the warp engines.

 

[Mytran]

I was looking through "The Enemy Within" and it doesn't look like the room goes much further sideways past the vertical power conduit. There is a quick cut where Kirk turns around and you see nothing but a blank wall behind him. But there does appear that you can walk further back (side of the grill cathedral section).

Well spotted! At around 23:00 Kirk walks round to the large vertical conduit thing and the wall veers off at around a 45 degree angle. I think I didn't see it before because the floor tiles change colour along the path of the former wall:


(link to HD image)

As to the blank wall you mentioned - yes it's there, but there's no clues as to how far away it actually is!