I figured the TMP refit was the prototype, while the E-A was more of a representation of the regular production version.
The Undiscovered Country Engine Room
- Thread starter blssdwlf
- Start date
I tend to think most of ST:5 as all being a big dream sequence 
Anyway, I figure the TMP refit-redesign was the prototype and the TWOK version the production version. The TUC version probably was the final upgrade version (and that's over how many years?). For comparison, the TOS Enterprise's engine room underwent a whole bunch of redesigns and revisions in just 3 years.
Anyway, I figure the TMP refit-redesign was the prototype and the TWOK version the production version. The TUC version probably was the final upgrade version (and that's over how many years?). For comparison, the TOS Enterprise's engine room underwent a whole bunch of redesigns and revisions in just 3 years.
I rather think the TMP refit was an experimental conversion where they did all sorts of stuff they later regretted, such as enlarging the shuttlebay area. Thus, all later ships were refitted to a lesser degree, giving us the more TOS-like shuttlebay of the E-A.
There isn't much evidence of backpedaling after the E-A. The flat-panel consoles are there to stay in contemporary ships like the Constellations. The Hathaway has a similar-looking reaction chamber, too...
Or the TWoK version was a patch-up job after the TMP original began to show wear and tear. The same engine room, but now with an isolation chamber around a leak they couldn't patch; the same bridge, but now with darker colors as they no longer bothered to clean the shiny whites and beiges.
Or then we just saw different parts of it in different episodes. TAS showed some more angles...
Timo Saloniemi
There isn't much evidence of backpedaling after the E-A. The flat-panel consoles are there to stay in contemporary ships like the Constellations. The Hathaway has a similar-looking reaction chamber, too...
Or the TWoK version was a patch-up job after the TMP original began to show wear and tear. The same engine room, but now with an isolation chamber around a leak they couldn't patch; the same bridge, but now with darker colors as they no longer bothered to clean the shiny whites and beiges.
Or then we just saw different parts of it in different episodes. TAS showed some more angles...
Timo Saloniemi
You mean that shuttlebay in ST5 where the internal and external structure is distorted vertically?
No problem with the flat panels on the E-A. After looking at the screen shots for the Hathaway, it uses a similar dilithium articulation chamber as the E-D but it lacks the intermix shaft so prominent on the E, E-A and E-D.
Another thought would be that the E-A got the first version of the warp core that would be last used in the E-D.
LOL. And a room just for Spock's dramatic moment
In-universe, the TOS Enterprise upgraded from using 4 Lithium crystals to 4 Dilithium crystals and by 2nd year only 1 crystal. So there were some big changes just in terms of operation...
Here, too, I'd argue that we shouldn't interpret our tiny snippets of data as a succession of different configurations, but merely as facets of a single, large, and largely unchanging one.
Nowhere is it suggested that the ship would have been powered by four crystals exactly. Let's examine the evidence:
In "Where No Man", our heroes visit a lithium cracking plant in order to use its "power packs" for "regenerating" the ship's engines. Since lithium can't be cracked, the plant is probably using lithium for cracking something else - suggesting our heroes used lithium crystal power packs for re-energizing their engines.
In "Mudd's Women", just a dozen stardates later, three lithium crystals are subjected to stresses, and lost in succession, eventually leaving only one. Doesn't mean the ship would normally operate on four crystals - indeed, the dialogue could well be taken as saying that the ship operates on one, with backups coming on line when that one is compromised. And we can't know if three plus one is a full load of spares, but we may surmise it is not because this adventure directly follows the power-system-crippling calamity of "Where No Man". Indeed, perhaps the ship isn't even supposed to run on "lithium crystals" at all, but is being forced to do so for the time being because of "Where No Man"?
OTOH, we know from TNG and VOY that all sorts of crystals with lithium in them (or at least in their name) can power a warp engine. There's dilithium, trilithium, paralithium... Might be that plain lithium is the fourth in the series - or then a generic name for all of them. Certainly it's unlikely that we'd be discussing a crystal made of pure Li, because such a structure doesn't occur in this universe; it's more likely that we're witnessing engineering shorthand for a more complex substance or structure, or actually a family of those.
In "Alternative Factor", "almost" all the ship's crystals are "drained" by the hiccuping universe. Kirk orders them "re-amplified", and a blueskirt specialist proceeds, using a machine that accommodates four fancy paddlelike "patients" at a time. These paddles are then stolen from that machine (which is called "energizer"), two by two, but this does not deprive the ship of operating power. Apparently, there are further crystals elsewhere still powering the ship, and either only four were drained, or then a dozen were drained but only four at a time can be nursed back to health by the energizer machine.
The paddles appear to be the standard form of dilithium crystal - perhaps a matrix of industrial microcrystals, as opposed to the fist-sized raw crystals that are specified to be an emergency solution in "Mudd's Women" and "Elaan of Troyius"?
At any rate, a single paddle or raw crystal seems to be what really provides power for the ship at any given time. That's what Scotty rigs up in the dilithium articulation frame whenever said device is seen, anyway. Apparently, that's where the dilithium spends its working hours, while the energizer (in a separate room) is for recuperation only.
It's also possible that this is what the dilithium reaction chambers have always looked like, from TOS to TMP to ST2-6 to TNG. It's just that back in the days of TOS, we never got to see this extremely hazardous, radsuit-only environment; our heroes accessed the chamber through shirtsleeves workplaces and waldo systems, such as the dilithium articulator frame dumbwaiter thingamabob at the floor of one of the shirtsleeves control centers on the upper decks.
In TMP, Scotty and his little people donned the radsuits and went down below because of the risky test drive nature of the mission. In ST2, Scotty again went down there because the mission was all about teaching the trainees the full greasy and coolantly reality of engineering, not just the standard shirtsleeves console warding. And in ST6, Scotty took special delight in visiting the actual reaction chamber on what might well have been his last chance to do so... But a few decks higher up, the vertical and horizontal plasma conduits still looked exactly like they did in TMP, and a few decks higher up still, the control rooms looked more or less like they had done in TOS!
Timo Saloniemi
As intriguing as it might sound, it would almost sound like arguing for a very staid and unchanging tech tree
"Where No Man" - two problems. In TOS we've never heard of lithium or dilithium being used to regenerate the ship's engines and we don't know what power packs they used from the station to regenerate.
That doesn't work if you go by the episode though. Remember Scotty lamenting about having to drive all the ship's power through one crystal. You could argue a minimum of two
There are enough changes in the ship's interior look and personnel clothing to suggest a refit or some time had taken place between the two episodes. It's a stretch to connect the two episodes like that, IMHO.
Or not shorthand but a gradual change in technology. It would make a whole lot of sense to tie the change in power distribution/generation improvements with also their increase power and speed (TOS-only
)Or another way of interpreting this is that the energizer was placed on stand-by to re-amplify the 4 dilithium crystals back to full power. The operating power wouldn't be affected in this manner simply because the ship is in orbit and could rely on it's impulse and/or battery power. There is no evidence that there would be extra spares beyond the initial four because Kirk's log after two goes missing states that the ship can't operate at full power.
I don't think they used the same crystals between the two episodes. "Mudd's Women" were Lithium crystals freshly mined and "Elaan" were dilithium crystals made into jewelry. They probably have similar properties to be used in TOS but dilithium seems to be far more powerful.
I think in the beginning they had to use at least 4 lithium and then dilithium. Once the tech transition from Lithium to Dilithium completed and after some optimization and refinement of the Dilithium Crystal manufacturing/mining they did end up using 1 crystal to power the ship (by season 2).
The energizer can't be for recuperation only - just refer back to "Doomsday Machine" where it being knocked out took out Warp Drive. Furthermore, you can also connect the dots with the loss of the main energizer in TWOK and "Elaan" and see that antimatter/matter engine + energizer + dilithium = warp power.
It's possible that before Kryton sabotaged the dilithium crystal injector assembly, he also took out the spare crystals. Further, a key part of his sabotage quite probably entailed booby-trapping the assembly so that if someone attempted to deactivate his bomb, which Scotty did, the crystal gets fried, which it did (in other words, it wasn't Scotty's fault the thing fried, it was all part of the plan). That way, if the bomb didn't destroy the ship, at least the warp drive would be disabled and the Klingons could destroy the ship.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
Which is what Rick said they did. They wanted something visually different than the pulses, and deliberately went back to the "swirl chamber". According to Rick, the whole assembly is a reaction chamber, allowing massive amounts of matter and antimatter to interact as needed. This accounts for Voyagers high cruising and emergency speeds as well as it's firepower.
darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
I personally doubt that. I think the jury-rig system they cobbled together got them home for a full engine refit, which turned into a somewhat more comprehensive refit, explaining the different ship appearance, bridge, etc.
This makes a certain amount of sense, and goes nicely with the problem they had in STIV (they were working with crude crystals and didn't have the facilities of a full starship to regenerate them), as well as Geordi's statement in "Relics" about "regenerating" (or "recrystalizing" or whatever exact word) the crystals while still in the articulation frame.
We got to see a very small part of it I think in "That Which Survives", when Scotty has to manually "pull the fuse" on the engines to stop their runaway reaction.
This also makes sense if you figure that the injector assemblies could be laid out horizontally in the 2260s configuration, and would therefore be one deck down from Main Engineering proper. That would make the "hubs" in ME the reaction chambers for the M/AM reactor, which would be consistent with the later shows.
I'm fairly confident that the changes can be explained by different reactor systems, starting in TMP. They abandoned the horizontal model and went with either a combined Horizontal/Vertical model (TMP, TWOK, etc) or a pure vertical one (TUC and onwards).
The system in TOS seems to have the dilithium crystal articulation whatsit separate from the Matter/Antimatter Reaction Chamber (M/ARC), probably for safety and maintenance reasons (easier to get to, and you don't have to shut down the main reactor). In TMP, the concept was that the entire shaft was lined with dilithium (I'll go along with this as far as the vertical shaft; lining the horizontal shaft just brings up the horrific image of antimatter/warp plasma "backfire" halfway back and blowing a nice hole in the upper secondary hull). And with the E-A, we get the first M/ARC with the ditlithium crystal articulation matrix integrated into the same unit (at least the first modern one; still not sure how the NX-01 was laid out).
The E-A might have been the first step to tightly integrate the dilithium/energizer system with the M/AM reactor/warp system. Probably why we don't hear about energizers in TNG and later, IMO. (Assuming that they all were on the same tech tree. There are times I like to keep the TOS and TNG universes apart 
)
)darkwing_duck1
Vice Admiral
Everything that we know about how the M/ARC works says that the crystals HAVE to be integrated into the reaction chamber, as it is the dilithium that allows the reaction to be regulated in a controlled way.
Ablative_Oberth
Lieutenant Commander
It's this kind of rigid thinking that limits you. Really. Its a pretend engine based on pretend technology. Think OUTSIDE the chains of canon.
The energy from the matter/antimatter reaction has to go through the dilithium crystals in order to be focused into a high enough intensity to be usable by the warp engines, but nothing says that the dilithium crystals have to be in the intermix chamber in order to do this. The energy can be directed from the M/ARC to the dilithium, and then off to the nacelles.
So long as those crystals are between the M/A reaction and the warp coils, it's all good.
So long as those crystals are between the M/A reaction and the warp coils, it's all good.
Everything that we know from TNG on indicates that.
However, that isn't the case in TOS. The best example of this is in "The Paradise Syndrome" where they are running at full power in preparation to deflect the asteroid and Scotty ejects the dilithium converter assembly to take a look at it. If the dilithium were regulating the M/AM reaction then that would have not been possible without a warp core shutdown.
Not only that, we see in "The Alternative Factor" that the dilithium crystals are used in the energiser system which looks separated from the M/AM reactor. As time and upgrades went on, the dilithium/energiser system got closer and closer to presumably the M/AM reactor (wherever that is) but they never appeared to be setup like TNG though.
Undiscovered Country 1701-A Engineering Room with Scotty was a quick use of the standing NG 1701-D Engineering set. The camera angle looking down from above was a good attempt that Meyer did to conceal the obvious NG set being used. Here is a link to Star Trek interior sets re-used:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/reused_interiors.htm
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http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/reused_interiors.htm
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It just doesn't sound plausible that the ship would have undergone such fundamental changes during the run of the supposed five-year mission. If nothing stayed constant during that mission, not even the power system of the ship herself, if nothing marked a beginning or an end, then why was it considered a five-year mission?
In "Alternative Factor", we dealt with an unusual emergency affecting the crystals. Previously, in "Mudd's Women", we heard lithium crystals being part of "circuitry" through which power flowed. (This power could bypass the crystals, except that in that very episode the bypass option had been knocked out; apparently, then, crystals didn't generate or store power, they merely regulated it.) We saw none of the related gear, though. Later on, after "Alternative Factor", we finally saw the articulation frame thing...
We could just as well assume, then, that the articulation frame had been there all along, and that all the anomalies in "Alternative Factor" (the new set, the new specialist character, the new way dilithium behaved) were indeed temporary anomalies, related to the emergency. Soon thereafter, Scotty would be back, Main Engineering would be back, and dilithium would behave more or less like lithium had behaved in "Where No Man" and "Mudd's Women".
"Mudd's Women" suggests it would indeed be possible, as long as the ship hasn't "blown her whole converter assembly" and thus lost the ability to rig a bypass circuit...
Timo Saloniemi
Sound plausible vs what we were given over three seasons? Lithium circuits (early S1) were changed to Dilithium circuits (later S1 and onward). S1 Engine Room grew in height, added a 2nd floor and shrank in depth in S2. Between S2 and S3 that engine room's alcove area underwent changes as it went from open to enclosed. And M5, don't want to forget about that modification. Oh yes, the Enterprise in the span of three seasons was Starfleet and Scotty's playground alright
Her five-year mission was to explore - yes, she did that. But she also kept the peace, participated in war (or almost war), undertook an espionage mission, etc that weren't part of the well-known introduction speech. It makes sense that she needed power upgrades to keep up with the constant arms race with the Federation's adversaries.
Don't know. Could mean a five-year tour of duty with exploration as the primary role and defense and police action as secondary roles.
They did specify that the ship's power were fed through the lithium crystals to power the ship. Would the raw matter/antimatter power be as usable if it bypassed the crystals? Apparently not, but can be done in an emergency. And we know in "The Alternative Factor" and "Day of the Dove" that the crystals are charged with energy and the energy is consumed by the ship as it discharges. Think of it as the lithium battery in a laptop that goes between the AC power and the laptop's internal power.
It is different from TNG's dilithium being an antimatter regulator that is used to control the matter/antimatter reaction. I don't ever recall that it is being able to be bypassed in TNG or used in a manner like TOS.
A simpler approach would be that the S1 Engine Room didn't have the floor dilithium articulation machinery for the energiser and the energiser was in that separate room as seen in "The Alternative Factor". When the entire S1 Engine Room was expanded in S2, the energiser with the dilthium articulation machinery was relocated to the engine room. Seems to be a simple enough explanation
Sure, we see that in "The Wrath Of Khan" where Scotty bypasses the main energiser. And with the loss of a crystal (ejected in "The Paradise Syndrome") there was a loss in power as not all crystals were available to supply the power being fed to them from the M/AM reactors.
Eject the crystals in TNG and the M/AM core shuts down from a lack of regulator. Very different premise between the series.
It's likely that the crystals have to be charged in order to properly regulate the energy flow. Further, if the crystals are discharging, or otherwise losing power, that translates into the power from the M/ARC basically being flushed into a rathole (considering the nature of the energy, most likely into subspace), i.e., it's not being fed to the rest of the ship, resulting in the ship being dead in the water. The fusion reactors, which don't go through the dilithium crystals, can keep the lights, gravity, and impulse engines up and running, but can't really do much to power the warp drive or the phasers at anything resembling an effective level.
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