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The Two Romulan States

:wtf:...How the heck did Benedict Arnold get into this discussion? Ah, well....

No, because, 1. being ruled by a dictator is not the same thing as slavery

Well, when you consider the slave-like treatment of women in Islamo-Fascist societies such as Saddam's Iraq--and of course, said society's racist treatment towards Jews...suddenly the line seems blurred...doesn't it?

However, foreign societies do not have a right to interfere in their domestic politics unless that society has attacked foreign societies.

Hmm...outta curiosity...would you be willing to extend that statement to ”unless that society has attacked foreign societies...and/or provided safe haven for those who do"?

Again...just speaking theory. ;)

I had a very long, drawn out answer to this quote written up, but because you've proven by your posts to be a remarkably well-informed and thoughtful individual I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming that by the "right to freedom" you meant the "right to be a free citizen" and not "right to all personal freedoms whatsoever".

(ps I think the nadir of race relations in the US was from 1857-1865, stemming from the Dred Scott decision.)

It kinda was...that decision by the Supreme Court to force free states to return runaway slaves was, frankly, one of the worst decisions ever made by the Court--because it was an unfounded "re-interpretation" of the extradition clauses of the Constitution.

Kinda reminds one of Article 14, Section 31...wouldn't you say?
 
Well, when you consider the slave-like treatment of women in Islamo-Fascist societies such as Saddam's Iraq--...

Or forced military conscription for young men in our own countries historically? Sorry to burst in half way through an argument I'm not entirely following, but I had to point out gender-based descrimination that could possibly be seen by some as slavery is not limited to Islamic countries by any means. This isn't on topic, I know, but I thought I'd just point it out...
 
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Or forced military conscription for young men in our own countries historically?

I'm against the draft, too--a volunteer military is the best military.

The draft is just a sign of desperation--and weakness. And it's a violation of individual rights--it's a claim that The State has the right to decide whether you live or die.

In a word...yes, it is slavery.

Sorry to burst in half way through an argument I'm not entirely following, but I had to point out gender-based descrimination that could possibly be seen by some as slavery is not limited to Islamic countries by any means. This isn't on topic, I know, but I thought I'd just point it out...

I know. But precious few nations have women stoned to death after being accused of adultery, with little to no attention payed to whether the accusation was true or not...in effect, "the woman's guilty, no questions asked."
 
Or forced military conscription for young men in our own countries historically?

I'm against the draft, too--a volunteer military is the best military.

The draft is just a sign of desperation--and weakness. And it's a violation of individual rights--it's a claim that The State has the right to decide whether you live or die.

In a word...yes, it is slavery.

My apologies, I wasn't trying to start an argument or detract from your conversations, I simply thought your previous comments were a bit unfair to Islamist nations, who are far from the only states to have laws which blur the line into slavery. Our own nations have done the same...:)
 
:wtf:...How the heck did Benedict Arnold get into this discussion? Ah, well....

No, because, 1. being ruled by a dictator is not the same thing as slavery

Well, when you consider the slave-like treatment of women in Islamo-Fascist societies such as Saddam's Iraq--and of course, said society's racist treatment towards Jews...suddenly the line seems blurred...doesn't it?

No one's questioning that the treatment of women in many Islamic societies is repressive and needs to be changed, but frankly the system of chattel slavery that existed in the United States before the 13th Amendment was on such an extreme scale of barbarity and cruelty, was so supremely evil, that in my view only things like genocide, genocide attempts, ethnic cleansing, and comparable systems of slavery really compare to its scale of human rights violations.

I will, however, note that up until the election of Abraham Lincoln, any foreign government that had so desired would have been, in my view, perfectly justified in invading the United States with the intent of terminating the "peculiar institution" (much as I view the U.S. and NATO as having had the right to bomb Serbia in order to terminate their "ethnic cleansing" attempt against Albanian Kosovars).

However, foreign societies do not have a right to interfere in their domestic politics unless that society has attacked foreign societies.

Hmm...outta curiosity...would you be willing to extend that statement to ”unless that society has attacked foreign societies...and/or provided safe haven for those who do"?

I would; I don't distinguish between attacking a country and providing safe haven and operating grounds for those who do. So, no, I do not and have never objected to the United States's war in Afghanistan -- though I add that I believe that the U.S. needs to develop a clearer sense of achievable objectives, a willingness to allow Afghanistan to have its own internal conflicts so long as they do not threaten the U.S. or our allies, or constitute genocide/chattel slavery-level human rights abuses, and a game plan to know how to leave when it becomes clear that al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations will simply no longer be able to use Afghanistan as a base of operations against the U.S. or its allies.
 
Maybe British schools don't like to teach the American Revolution because you lost.

Much like we Americans don't like to talk about the War of 1812 since as it has been put "We got our asses kicked".

Or because the actions of the British that led to the revolution aren't something to be proud of (though that's all the more reason why it should be taught and not forgotten).

You do know the Native Americans probably LIKED one of those actions since it was basically telling the Colonies that you can only expand to this line on the map and our Native friends get the rest as a way of saying thank you to the ones that didn't join forces with the French.
 
Maybe British schools don't like to teach the American Revolution because you lost.

Much like we Americans don't like to talk about the War of 1812 since as it has been put "We got our asses kicked".

Or because the actions of the British that led to the revolution aren't something to be proud of (though that's all the more reason why it should be taught and not forgotten).

You do know the Native Americans probably LIKED one of those actions since it was basically telling the Colonies that you can only expand to this line on the map and our Native friends get the rest as a way of saying thank you to the ones that didn't join forces with the French.

The British actions leading up to the Revolution were a mixture of legitimate policies that Colonial imperialists objected to and repressive policies that no sane person would condone.

Similarly, Colonial objectives were a mixture of a perfectly acceptable desire for autonomy and sovereignty and civil rights, and a deplorable desire to engage in imperial projects towards Indian lands.
 
we didn't study the war of 1812 either. i learned of that from a freakin' video games forum!

i never even studied Napoleon fer crying out loud!
 
Okay, let's get this straight: There's nothing intrinsically Islamic about oppression of women. Muhammad was surrounded by strong women all his life and the Qur'an actually has a relatively progressive attitude toward women. Up until a century or so ago, women in the West were far more oppressed than women in the Islamic world. Subjugation of women is not a religious policy but a cultural one, one that's specifically found in poor, uneducated countries. The Mideast has a lot of oppression today, not because of Islam, but because of poverty, ignorance, and cultural disintegration. And that disintegration happened mainly because Europe and America spent a couple of centuries relentlessly meddling in local affairs, overthrowing governments it didn't like, allying with brutal dictators because they claimed to embrace Western modernism, and so on. Like I said, imposing your will on other cultures in the name of your short-term interest always backfires on you in the long run.

(And in case anyone mentions veiling, that custom actually originated in the Byzantine Empire. Again, it's a cultural thing rather than a religious one. True, some extremist Islamist sects have adopted it as a means of oppression, but they're no more typical of rank-and-file Islam than David Koresh and the Branch Davidians were typical Christians. The Qur'an says nothing about veiling except that women should keep their breasts covered.)

And let's be clear, also, that there's a big difference between Islamic nations or groups and Islamist ones. Islam is a religion and a culture. Islamism is a political ideology asserting that government should be based upon Islamic law. The only actual "Islamist nation" is Iran. Every other government in the Mideast is essentially secular; though Islam may be their state religion, their actual leaders are not Islamic clerics.

And one could argue that Islamism is not very Islamic. By a strict reading of Islamic doctrine, government shouldn't even exist, because no one has the right to intercede between the individual and God. For over a thousand years, Islamic philosophers have struggled with the question of the legitimacy of their rulers. The general conclusion is that there needs to be leadership and organization to see to the needs of the people, and that it's okay so long as the government doesn't try to meddle in individuals' religious practices. Which means that the Islamist notion of Islamic clerics ruling directly over the people, the idea that people need religious scholars to intercede between them and God and tell them what to do, is... well, highly revisionist. So it's important not to confuse a modern political ideology with a far older, extremely diverse religion.
 
so, Islam actually believes in freedom of religion, despite the requirement that you only believe in Allah and His prophet Mohammed? or did i just totally read that wrong?

my religion is 'i don't give a rat's ass, just don't force your views on me. or anyone else.'

i HATE evangelists, whatever their cause.
 
^ Well to be fair all old-testement based religion is founded on the idea that their religion is the only one, if anyone here listens to the now show on radio 4 marcus brigstock discussed that very issue recently...
 
yeah, their god is the only one, and it's the same guy! just with a false nose and a fake beard!

(Sir Terry Pratchett gag)
 
Okay, let's get this straight: There's nothing intrinsically Islamic about oppression of women. Muhammad was surrounded by strong women all his life and the Qur'an actually has a relatively progressive attitude toward women. Up until a century or so ago, women in the West were far more oppressed than women in the Islamic world. Subjugation of women is not a religious policy but a cultural one, one that's specifically found in poor, uneducated countries. The Mideast has a lot of oppression today, not because of Islam, but because of poverty, ignorance, and cultural disintegration. And that disintegration happened mainly because Europe and America spent a couple of centuries relentlessly meddling in local affairs, overthrowing governments it didn't like, allying with brutal dictators because they claimed to embrace Western modernism, and so on.

I think part of the problem Westerners encounter in understanding Islam is that some Muslims have transported nominally impoverished-nation cultural concepts into liberal, prosperous countries. We aren't prepared to accept the repressive notions in our countries, and then often encounter a religious element to responses to our complaints.

That the religious element is fraudulent isn't material to our experience, though it would be to our understanding. On the other hand, what is Islam? Is it written doctrine or common belief? I don't know whether the common Muslim (worldwide, that is) believes that Islam requires oppression, that it forbids it, or that it does neither. But if common Muslim belief thought it required, would it be Islam?

(Oppression is considered from the modern Western perspective.)

Like I said, imposing your will on other cultures in the name of your short-term interest always backfires on you in the long run.

I disagreed with your assertion about force in another thread, but if this is hat you meant there, I'm in general agreement. The use of force or coercion for short-term almost inevitably ends badly. A skillfull government might extract something positive from the situation, but damage will inescapably be done.
 
so, Islam actually believes in freedom of religion, despite the requirement that you only believe in Allah and His prophet Mohammed? or did i just totally read that wrong?

I probably expressed it poorly. Islam believes that only God has the right to tell individuals what to do. I didn't say freedom of religion; I'm talking about a different issue, the ethics of rulership and authority as it relates to Islam (a word which literally and fundamentally means submission to God, and therefore excludes submission to any human). Islamic belief is that government is legitimate only to the extent that it supports and facilitates the individual's practice of Islam and does not interfere with it or attempt to co-opt the individual's submission (as in, for instance, a cult of personality).

But as a matter of fact, the Qur'an explicitly commands tolerance of Christians and Jews, fellow "People of the Book." In medieval times, when Europeans were persecuting the hell out of Jews, they fled to the Mideast where their right to practice Judaism unmolested would be guaranteed -- so long, admittedly, as they paid their taxes. One could argue there was intolerance in that only non-Muslims were required to pay taxes, but that's exactly why Muslim states generally didn't practice forced conversion -- because doing so would deprive them of tax revenue.

So yes, basically, Islam teaches that it's not the place of the state to intervene in people's religious lives. Islam means willing submission; a conversion that isn't voluntary on the part of the individual is not true Islam. Believing in Allah and his Prophet is not a "requirement" in the sense you imply. It's the one and only requirement for being a Muslim (beyond that there's immense diversity of practice), but it must be a voluntary choice, not something compelled by the state or the military or anything else. And any Muslim faction that claims otherwise is misunderstanding the tenets of the faith.

I wrote a college research paper on the subject which might be illuminating:

http://home.fuse.net/ChristopherLBennett/History/CONVERT.htm
 
yeah, their god is the only one, and it's the same guy! just with a false nose and a fake beard!

(Sir Terry Pratchett gag)

^Actually I think it's more like call my bluff...
 
And let's be clear, also, that there's a big difference between Islamic nations or groups and Islamist ones. Islam is a religion and a culture. Islamism is a political ideology asserting that government should be based upon Islamic law. The only actual "Islamist nation" is Iran. Every other government in the Mideast is essentially secular; though Islam may be their state religion, their actual leaders are not Islamic clerics.

:techman: My apologies if I misused terminology upthread. It seems I used "Islamist" when I should have said "Islamic". Thanks for the correction.
 
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