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the TWILITE thing

TWILITE...yes or no?

  • Come on Scorpio, you old fart, its hip and its happening!!!! Its good!!!

    Votes: 4 14.3%
  • Ummm...the youth of today scare me for liking this kind of movie...

    Votes: 24 85.7%

  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .
Twilight

I confess I haven't read the books. The excerpts I've stumbled across online have been more than enough to convince me that I wouldn't enjoy them.

I did watch the movie, or rather, I watched the RiffTrax of the first movie. That sealed the deal for me. Even without the constant razzing going on, the absurdity was clear. I had a headache at the end from rolling my eyes so often.

I've been amazed by how many of my acquaintances have their weekend planned around the new movie. Is a puzzlement. :confused:
 
The problem with DaVinci Code is that it's written at a pre-adolescent level. Literally. The short chapters always capped by a pseudo-climax reminded me of nothing if not my old Goosebumps books from grade school; same structure, and not particularly more complex in other regards. That, and the characters announcing that they have information which they then keep from the readers for most of the book, are just cheap, obvious attempts to build suspense that, in being so hackneyed, have exactly the opposite effect of boring one to tears. I don't think much of the story myself, but I'm sure there would have been ways to generate suspense without resorting to transparent tricks that just insult the reader's intelligence.

Amen, brother. By chapter 25 I was ready to scream at each pseudo-cliffhanger. It was remarkably tedious, and I found it amusing how the film, lacking the chapter ending device, was utterly devoid of any tension whatsoever, revealing the underlying flaccid quality of the story itself.

Coincidently (or perhaps not), the local paper ran an article to coincide with the latest film's release that quotes Melissa Click, professor at Ole Miss, who reached similar conclusions as you did: the story essentially promotes abstinence and displays genophobia.

I don't think I've read that particular analysis, but it's not as if the (barely) subtext of the first couple of stories is hard to read, and if you're familiar at all with basic gender studies analyses, it kind of jumps out and grabs you by the throat. (*rimshot*)

Going from the inherently conversative context of antisexualism, other aspects of the film suddenly make more sense: the retrograde gender roles, the domestication of transgressive sexuality (the kernels of rape, bestiality and necrophilia in vampires/werewolves) into a more-or-less sanitized kind of fairy tale, the carefully paired-off and heteronormative Cullens as an eternal nuclear family, where father will always know best because the 'kids' are trapped in their infancy. I would take issue, however, with the idea that it's not about eroticism (and the article was accompanied by similar comments from fans about asexual 'love' relationships). Twilight isn't about philia (that would be a film like Wall-E); the characters can't stop gibbering about how difficult it is to restrain their passions, clearly eros. But it's a failed eros, a limp, unfulfilled eros, since consummation would be 'bad'; training the next generation of the Junior Anti-Sex League. The way I see it, if it's anti-erotic, then it is about eroticism, just coming at the subject from a negative viewpoint, yes? So I guess I was wrong about there being nothing there; not that I loathe it any less, I just now loathe it for different reasons--which is to say, the erotophobic agenda.

Good point - it is about eroticism, just from the opposite direction. However, I think it's a tad judgmental to condemn it for this. As I've mentioned, the story plays in many ways on the entirely natural anxiety experienced by adolescent girls. You do feel a bit like prey, no matter how confident and self-possessed you are, when you become aware of your own and others' sexuality. It is a rare female who makes it to her sexual awakening without being lied to, aggressively cajoled, and/ or berated by one boy or another as he attempts to achieve his own sexual goals - and many girls experience far more frightening things such as physical assault at varying levels. I don't think most guys are aware of how common this is, but I've seen studies which put the percentage of girls who are in some way physically threatened or coerced into sexual play at around 75-80%. I know I experienced it, as did just about every other female I know (the grand majority of these experiences were not traumatic, merely highly annoying). Most of us just accept the unwelcome gropings, being backed into dark corners and the like as the way of the world and count ourselves lucky that we live in a time when it is kept to about as much of a minimum as is possible for the human race.

There is a fairy tale quality to Twilight, for it, like many fairy tales, is an exaggerated parable about the little death, and the connection between sex and death runs throughout the imaginations of many cultures. Is it retrograde in many ways? Sure. As I understand the story, not having read it, when Bella does experience sex with Edward, it is safely in the confines of marriage, and it results rather quickly in a pregnancy - a pregnancy whcih threatens her life but which she selflessly (or masochistically, depending on your point of view) insists upon carrying to term. The core of the story, therefore, is the standard romance formula - two lovers overcome great obstacles, suffering greatly in order to be together (Edward suffers because he desires to eat Bella, Bella suffers to bear his child - his vampirism therefore, could also be read within this forumla as a way to saddle him with physical suffering equivalent to carrying a life-threatening pregnancy). Some of the erotic thwarting exists to build tension in the story - it's no dumber than the story device of two destined lovers hating each other upon first meeting, and that's been done in SF to death and back (Han and Leia, Crichton and Aeryn, Mal and Inara), nor is it really any more anti-erotic than Buffy and Angel, wherein their first sexual experience together results in him losing his soul and becoming a monster who proceeds to torture his former lover (break the message about eroticism down in that one! It's not particularly flattering to either sex.)

All of which is to say, it's not the message in Twilight that's any more offensive than most stories. It's just really badly written. The plot structure is ridiculous, the characterization is minimal, the dialogue is gag-inducing. It's just bad, but lots of stories are bad, and lots of people love them. I love things that are of equally poor quality. To return to 300, it constructs a vision of white male moral superiority equated with individualism and freedom played against the most retrograde Orientalism, with literally monstrous depictions of dark-skinned evil hordes resulting in subtext that I find just as retrograde and loathsome as any message Twilight has to offer. But I recognize in the end that it's all pretty harmless.


Oh, I'm familiar with Miller's comments, and I believe he's being entirely forthright on his opinions. I've also seen Zack Snyder's comments on the film, where he's repeatedly said that the movie has no ideological message one way or another (in apparent contradiction of Miller, and the superficial reading of the film that rather obviously sets itself up in the Clash of Cultures mode). But I don't believe Snyder. To me, 300 is like Starship Troopers or Colbert: the grotesque exageration of the message purposefully undermines it.

Is it a simple story? Of course: it's propaganda. It's Triumph of the Will with sandals and shields. Pretty good guys, ugly (and how!) bad guys. The film admits as much in the final scene, where you discover that the entire movie was a story being told to energize the troops on the eve of a major battle with the Persians--a 5th century B.C.E. version of a USO show--and by a character who wasn't even there for key scenes, and couldn't really know how they turn out, to say nothing of providing a source for the more fantastical elements of the movies (exagerated storytelling). Unreliable narrator; he's even missing an eye as though to reinforce his limited vision. That's how I see it, anyway; I admit I'm no film studies guy, so I'm not the best person to be mounting this defence. But that was my impression of it, and I'd be willing to bet that, give it ten years or so for scholarship to develop, 300 will be recognized as quite the subversive film (though not without difficulties), whatever its roots.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

I think you have some quite defensible points about 300, though unlike Colbert I don't think its exaggeration was conceived satirically. Which is not to say it can't be taken that way, and time will tell whether or not it is treated in such a manner. Your interpretation is vividly rendered with great style, so kudos!
 
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Re: Twilight

I've been amazed by how many of my acquaintances have their weekend planned around the new movie. Is a puzzlement. :confused:

You know I felt the same way towards everybody freaking out when Star Wars Episode I was coming out.

Everybody in my college class was all hyped over it like.... well.... a bunch of giddy school girls.

Hell I didn't even want to go see it, but they were all excited to see it and figured it was such a big thing, that they offered to buy me a ticket.... cuz it was supposed to be one of those things that you just had to see when it first came out in theatres.

So I gone with them.... saw it..... and all I can say is thank hell I didn't pay for my ticket. What a complete waste of my life for such an over-hyped pile of crap.

Jar Jar sure didn't help anything, the story dragged on to basically nowhere for 2/3's of the movie, the special effects were worse then the things we were doing as weekly assignments in college......

Seriously.... nobody noticed Jar Jar should have collided with several people in the movie based on his distance from them and how he walked?

And what the hell was that stupid thing at then ending where they passed over that glowing ball of whatever? Could they have made their hands any flatter and stretched out to really make it look fake while it floated in the middle of the air?

I swear after the first 45 minutes of noticing all sorts of animation and modeling errors, I was just sitting there in my seat, twiching away just waiting to get the hell out of there, just thinking how such a dumbass like George Lucas can make millions off of half assed stories and shoddy CGI. Reminds me when they come out with a new barbie doll..... OooOOooooOoooo..... look kids! sure it's the exact same barbie doll you already bought 15 times before, but this one comes with a neat little purse.... wow!

It seems eventually some people just decide to live off of the stupidity of their already existing fan base and put very little effort into the whole thing because they already know they're rich and their fans of their work will suck up anything they make like Krusty the Clown. (You're Pregnant.... and it's not mine.... Hooooo Hwa heh heh heh heh!!)

There's all sorts of over-hyped movies out there that many just love to flock to that many others just don't understand why.
 
Here's an unofficial Twilight product that some of its female fans might enjoy.
(Might not be safe for work)

"The Vamp retains hot and cold temperature. Toss it in the fridge for that authentic experience."
Great. Sexual pleasure for the amateur necrophiliac.
I like how it sparkles in sunlight... so you're supposed to use it outdoors in daytime? erm...
 
Actually there is one Twilight "product" I wouldn't mind checking out: Russet Noon

I don't know if the writer has guts, balls, or suffers from a mental defect but she sure got the hornet's nest stirred up.

Wow, seems a bit off her rocker. :wtf:
I know, I love it. :lol: It's a extreme version of that ditz who published her Star War fanfic a while back (Another Hope I think as the title) and started boo-hooing when the legals spanked her.

And when Peter David starts making fun of your fic, then you know you've arrived. Peter's Official page for the Gang-fang

Edit: I was right, it was Another Hope
 
I don't think I've read that particular analysis, but it's not as if the (barely) subtext of the first couple of stories is hard to read, and if you're familiar at all with basic gender studies analyses, it kind of jumps out and grabs you by the throat. (*rimshot*)

Admitedly, I have no specific background in gender studies, at least not as it relates to contemporary culture, beyond what makes its way through osmosis into other parts of the humanities.

However, I think it's a tad judgmental to condemn it for this. As I've mentioned, the story plays in many ways on the entirely natural anxiety experienced by adolescent girls. You do feel a bit like prey, no matter how confident and self-possessed you are, when you become aware of your own and others' sexuality. It is a rare female who makes it to her sexual awakening without being lied to, aggressively cajoled, and/ or berated by one boy or another as he attempts to achieve his own sexual goals - and many girls experience far more frightening things such as physical assault at varying levels. I don't think most guys are aware of how common this is, but I've seen studies which put the percentage of girls who are in some way physically threatened or coerced into sexual play at around 75-80%. I know I experienced it, as did just about every other female I know (the grand majority of these experiences were not traumatic, merely highly annoying). Most of us just accept the unwelcome gropings, being backed into dark corners and the like as the way of the world and count ourselves lucky that we live in a time when it is kept to about as much of a minimum as is possible for the human race.

Well, that's just abominable. I would, however--non-expert that I am--suggest that denial of eroticism is essentially abandoning the field of contestation, which just allows harmful behaviour to fester, and that the proper means of countering sexual predation is through depictions of positive, healthy sexual relationships, without the kind of guilt and sublimated violence that winds up making sex neighbor to other maligned and/or maladaptive behaviour. Although, it does seem to make the situation in Twilight a bit confused. What's-his-face's creepy behaviour, repeated threats and otherwise violent potential seems like the embodiment of that fear (enhanced for fiction), only instead of being presented as threatening (at least at first glance), it's presented as desirable. You'd think this would be a character who would be antagonistic rather than attractive. Is it the 'bad boy' appeal rendered tame (within tolerable levels) by her apparent ability to domesticate him? Because at that point you're actually minimizing the fear, rather than maximizing it, by making it so simple to overcome an exagerated problem. Then again, I suppose that's not much different from most other horror, meant to be frightening but couched in comforting, moral-code-affirming formula about who survives and how the 'evil' is usually (simply) defeated. Hmpf.

Some of the erotic thwarting exists to build tension in the story - it's no dumber than the story device of two destined lovers hating each other upon first meeting, and that's been done in SF to death and back (Han and Leia, Crichton and Aeryn, Mal and Inara), nor is it really any more anti-erotic than Buffy and Angel, wherein their first sexual experience together results in him losing his soul and becoming a monster who proceeds to torture his former lover (break the message about eroticism down in that one! It's not particularly flattering to either sex.)

As I recall, Whedon (or someone else with the show) said it was meant to reflect the idea of the relationship changing after sex--which didn't have to be about the first experience of sex per se (Angel would have turned evil even if she'd had several previous partners), but certainly emphacized her vulnerability afterwards, emotionally and to the judgment of others like her mom. So I suppose you're correct: it boils down to execution. Buffy managed to make its themes more-or-less seamless with the surface level of the content. Twilight manages neither clarity of message, or a tolerable surface reading. I must admit, though, I am a sucker for a well-written love/hate (love/irritation, really) relationship, mostly because I love good repartee, and besides, a good relationship should have some element of challenge, I think.

I think you have some quite defensible points about 300, though unlike Colbert I don't think its exaggeration was conceived satirically. Which is not to say it can't be taken that way, and time will tell whether or not it is treated in such a manner.

We'll see. I was googling this recently out of curiosity, and did come across Snyder saying that the one-eyed narrator of the film's frame was "a guy who knows how not to wreck a good story with truth." To me, this says they're aware that it's a story about a story, and could deliberately showcase the pitfalls inherent to fiction (particularly this type, propagandistic/nationalistic).

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
New Moon has a Friday estimate of $72.7 million, which surpasses The Dark Knight (which made $67 million on its opening day) to set a new opening day and single day record.
 
On a side note, I don't care for The Da Vinci Code, either. And While I liked 300, I think they both singlehandedly changed the entire format of the History Channel and History international. Not a week goes by without a night devoted to Knights Templar or Freemason or a marathon of some sort of herky jerky, fast paced battles bc junk.

I'm jsut tired in genreal I think of everything that's a hit instantly being everywhere and saturateing everything and causing a dozen bandwagon imitators in its wake. Before friggin Twilight, you almost had to be a closeted vampire reader. You could barely find vampire fiction in stores, and outside of Anne Rice, most of it was drivel. (And her work waned, too.) I like Buffy, too, but the same young folks who liked the show weren't necessarily vampire readers. In the next decade, will the publishers be back to 'No vampires!'?
 
New Moon has a Friday estimate of $72.7 million, which surpasses The Dark Knight (which made $67 million on its opening day) to set a new opening day and single day record.
Yup.

http://boxofficemojo.com/alltime/days/?page=single&p=.htm

Dark Knight fanboys are depressed today. Highly depressed. :p

Saw it with my daughter and..I liked it. Yes, its very much like the first one. But, all in all, just about as mindless as Transformers 2 (with vampires instead of transformers), but for me, actually funner.

I thought Kristen's acting ability got better. The CGI was better than average. I am actually looking forward to the third one this summer.

Okay..you can heckle me now!
Rob
 
Saw it with my daughter and..I liked it. Yes, its very much like the first one. But, all in all, just about as mindless as Transformers 2 (with vampires instead of transformers), but for me, actually funner.

I thought Kristen's acting ability got better. The CGI was better than average. I am actually looking forward to the third one this summer.

Okay..you can heckle me now!
Rob
So... was it like a tuna factory, or what? :p
 
great.jpg


Damn...someone beat me to it. :(
 
Well, that's just abominable. I would, however--non-expert that I am--suggest that denial of eroticism is essentially abandoning the field of contestation, which just allows harmful behaviour to fester, and that the proper means of countering sexual predation is through depictions of positive, healthy sexual relationships, without the kind of guilt and sublimated violence that winds up making sex neighbor to other maligned and/or maladaptive behaviour. Although, it does seem to make the situation in Twilight a bit confused. What's-his-face's creepy behaviour, repeated threats and otherwise violent potential seems like the embodiment of that fear (enhanced for fiction), only instead of being presented as threatening (at least at first glance), it's presented as desirable. You'd think this would be a character who would be antagonistic rather than attractive. Is it the 'bad boy' appeal rendered tame (within tolerable levels) by her apparent ability to domesticate him? Because at that point you're actually minimizing the fear, rather than maximizing it, by making it so simple to overcome an exagerated problem. Then again, I suppose that's not much different from most other horror, meant to be frightening but couched in comforting, moral-code-affirming formula about who survives and how the 'evil' is usually (simply) defeated. Hmpf.

Wel, I think the point here is fiction is not meant to teach, and fiction that does try to do that is often pretty awful as fiction (Ayn Rand, anyone?). Fiction reflects much more than it teaches and thus the treatment of a character like Edward is replete with ambiguities - the bad boy is attractive, because girls are feeling their awakening sexual desire and wish to release that beast, but they are simultaneously aware of the vulnerability involved in physical intimacy with someone who is most likely bigger and stronger than you are, as well as the frightening possiblities of pregnancy, so the idea of domesticating, as you say, is also attractive, even as it is equally scary because it represents a whole new level of adulthood, so even that gets tones up or toned down in fiction. Because fiction is also a coping mechanism, which is why you've hit the nail on the head about how horrifying things are packaged up into neat manageable boxes in stories.

As I recall, Whedon (or someone else with the show) said it was meant to reflect the idea of the relationship changing after sex--which didn't have to be about the first experience of sex per se (Angel would have turned evil even if she'd had several previous partners), but certainly emphacized her vulnerability afterwards, emotionally and to the judgment of others like her mom. So I suppose you're correct: it boils down to execution. Buffy managed to make its themes more-or-less seamless with the surface level of the content. Twilight manages neither clarity of message, or a tolerable surface reading. I must admit, though, I am a sucker for a well-written love/hate (love/irritation, really) relationship, mostly because I love good repartee, and besides, a good relationship should have some element of challenge, I think.

I think the problem with Twilight is that it has no surface reading at all. That is, Bella does not exist outside of minimal characterization as Outsider New Girl and Beloved of Edward. There's no larger narrative with which to mesh whatever it's grappling with when it comes to young love or awakening eroticism. I quit listening to the audio book when Edward remarks to Bella that she is a trouble magnet. "If there's danger in a 20 miles radius it's going to find you." Which is the worst sort of fanfic trash writing. It's an author who can't be bothered to develop a character or plot such that there's an actual reason she has a tendency to get into dangerous scrapes - it all happens merely by "chance", that is, the willful and oh-so-obvious hand of the author. It also explains why the thematics come off as overtly offensive (even if they are understandable). If you invent a character for no other reason than to be obsessively in love with someone, then they are going to seem wildly unbalanced to the point that the love appears unhealthy just because the character doesn't have a damn thing else to do. But it's the not having a damn thing else to do that's wrogn with the whole thing, not the eroticism/ anti-eroticism business.
 
Wel, I think the point here is fiction is not meant to teach, and fiction that does try to do that is often pretty awful as fiction (Ayn Rand, anyone?).
I really liked the Fountainhead, I honestly did. Enjoyable little ego-trip about how the chosen few are so great and misunderstood and brilliant. Fun read, but I felt that when it came down to it I'm probably Ellsworth Toohey, the rather comically inept person blocking the real geniuses at every turn (I just know if there's an elect segment of humanity I'm not invited.)

Plenty twisted admittedly, and I'd rather not try to unpack whatever the hell that abusive sexual relationship is about - I suspect it may be a helluva lot worse then Twilight, but I don't greatly care.

Atlas Shrugged is just abominable, though. John Galt, shut up. Shut up. You've made this point already. And that. And that too. This is not how an epic speech is written. Or any speech. Gaaaaaah. It took me months to get through his speech alone, and I adore lengthy speeches.

Rand could have been a pretty decent pulp novelist with a rather misanthropic twist, but she had to give greater and greater weight to her characters just goddamn telling the readers how great her system of thought is.
 
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