The Trill in TNG vs DS9

[DS9Continuing]

I was watching "A Man Alone" recently, the first episode to focus on the Sisko/Curzon friendship. Sisko isn't sure which host Jadzia might be; he guesses the sixth, hinting Curzon didn't tell him much.

That always seemed unlikely to me. Like the joining question, which Sisko obviously knew about, I find it difficult to believe that Curzon never told Sisko how many previous hosts the symbiont had had in all the years they were friends.

Therefore I choose to interpret that line as either a) Sisko lying to Bashir because he doesn't know how much Dax wants let out, b) Sisko lying to Bashir just to mess with him because nobody really likes Bashir at this point, or c) Sisko lying to Bashir to deliberately run interference on Bashir's obvious puppy crush on his old friend. Or a combination of all of the above.

.

 

[Christopher]

That always seemed unlikely to me. Like the joining question, which Sisko obviously knew about, I find it difficult to believe that Curzon never told Sisko how many previous hosts the symbiont had had in all the years they were friends.

Ahh, but look at what Sisko said just before that:

BASHIR: Just how many different lives do you think she's led?
SISKO: I don't even know. He'll go, she'll go through a list of them, then out comes another one in a later conversation. I'd guess that Jadzia is probably the sixth host.

http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/403.htm

Jadzia would be (and was) more precise, but I can buy that Curzon would've been more cagey about it, just so he'd be able to keep his young protege guessing.

 

[Captain Robert April]

As Roddenberry was wont to say when facing questions like this, does everyone on this planet look alike? Why should we expect that of other species? Terry Farrell had it right, Odan is a Yankee, Jadzia's from Dixie.

 

[j3067]

There is a cultural aspect too. Odan's hosts did not use their names, they were all Odan...as opposed to Tom Odan or Jackie Odan.

 

[TheAlmanac]

(You can read a sizeable chunk of Victorian literature and not know about the British Empire, which I always find fascinating.)

Really? That's interesting -- I hadn't thought of that. I suppose one may draw a comparison to the way you can watch a lot of American television today but come away with no idea of America's relationship with the rest of the world.

In terms of your earlier example, though, you can also watch a lot of American television today and come away with no idea about American race relations.

 

[Sci]

(You can read a sizeable chunk of Victorian literature and not know about the British Empire, which I always find fascinating.)

Really? That's interesting -- I hadn't thought of that. I suppose one may draw a comparison to the way you can watch a lot of American television today but come away with no idea of America's relationship with the rest of the world.

In terms of your earlier example, though, you can also watch a lot of American television today and come away with no idea about American race relations.

You could come away without realizing how unequal things often are, but you couldn't come away not knowing that race exists.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Race doesn't exist except as a social construction. We are all part of the human race. Any other meaning of the term race (when used in regards to people) is used to distinguish one group of people from another by a group determined to say that they are different and therefore better or worse than another group.

It REALLY bugs the crap out of me when people discuss race and have no clue what it really means. The human race is one species, that's all, and there are no subdivisions of humanity as it currently stands, no lesser or greater human than any other.

If you must ascribe labels, use geographical/country definitions (and no, African-American really shouldn't count because the majority of Black people in the US today under the age of 50 [or so] are American having been born here. Their ancestors are African, but they are not).

Thus ends my rant and I return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[Timo]

Maybe the transporter change could be explained by an advance in transporter technology?

More probably, it's simply that when a Trill comes out of the closet and tells there's a parasite in his or her tummy, the transporter operator doesn't panic and hit the "PARASITE REMOVE!" button and kill the symbiont.

Or even more simply, when the Trill is candid about his or her inner self, there's no need to worry about the scans involved in a transporting process - scans that would reveal said inner self despite attempts at secrecy. Transporting need not pose any sort of a danger to the symbiont, other than the danger of exposure; that alone would be reason enough for Odan to avoid transporters and to lie to our heroes about certain related things.

There is a cultural aspect too. Odan's hosts did not use their names, they were all Odan...as opposed to Tom Odan or Jackie Odan.

To be fair, Odan in "The Host" would have been using the simplest form of its/his/her identity out of sheer politeness. Why confuse Beverly with complications?

OTOH, if Odan were something of a bully, giving less leeway for the host than the average symbiont does, it would naturally also prefer the symbiont name over the joined name - even if this were considered rude by Trill terms.

It REALLY bugs the crap out of me when people discuss race and have no clue what it really means.

Indeed it does. In every other species, it "really" means a subcategory of species, evident from the phenotype. But for some mysterious reason, it's forbidden to apply this definition to subcategories of the human species, equally evident from the phenotype.

Homo sapiens is one species, but to pretend that it isn't multiple races is truly asinine. And races have nothing to do with geography or culture, as the term "African-American" ought to spell out clearly enough.

Whether one race is better or worse than another is a question to be discussed on a case-by-case, attribute-by-attribute basis, rather than through generalizations filled by hate and fear. But to pretend that race doesn't exist when it literally stares you in the face is tacit declaration that races indeed are of different worth and for that very reason must not be brought up in polite conversation. Which is a silly idea and certainly doesn't deserve the sort of reinforcement it gets from all this "race mustn't exist" nonsense.

Of course, Star Trek is a perfect forum for discussing the concept or lack thereof, as race there is simplistically equated with culture, and typically with a villainous and weak element of culture at that, so that the weakness can be contrasted against the behavior of our human heroes in the plotline of the week. It just happens that race is camouflaged as species there, so that what appear to be humans with slightly differing phenotypes are instead identified as representatives of nonhuman species. The built-in racism of Star Trek is a wonderful storytelling device - but it does cause complications when one needs to tell stories about racism!

Thankfully, the exotic Trill biology at least distances the Trill stories a bit from the usual racist format and towards a specieist one, which may be of relief to some.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[j3067]

There is a cultural aspect too. Odan's hosts did not use their names, they were all Odan...as opposed to Tom Odan or Jackie Odan.

To be fair, Odan in "The Host" would have been using the simplest form of its/his/her identity out of sheer politeness. Why confuse Beverly with complications?

OTOH, if Odan were something of a bully, giving less leeway for the host than the average symbiont does, it would naturally also prefer the symbiont name over the joined name - even if this were considered rude by Trill terms.

Timo Saloniemi

Honestly I think it would have been more interesting if Jadzia/Ezri were part of a different host/symbiont type of species. It could have lead some interesting examination of their view/belief/prejudice of a similar species.

 

[Sci]

Race doesn't exist except as a social construction.

Yes, and someone watching American television -- let alone visiting American society in general -- would walk away knowing that that particular social construction exists.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

^Or Vulcans hiding the existence of pon farr?

Maybe that's the reason Vulcans didn't serve on human-crewed starships during the TOS era?

 

[Idran]

^Or Vulcans hiding the existence of pon farr?

Maybe that's the reason Vulcans didn't serve on human-crewed starships during the TOS era?

We don't really know they didn't, all we know is the USS Intrepid was nearly all Vulcans. It was never said that every Vulcan was on an all-Vulcan ship.

 

[Cybersnark]

I like to think the Intrepid had a human science officer who was facing constant harassment by his Vulcan CMO.

 

[captcalhoun]

someone should totally write that.

 

[rfmcdpei]

The other one that really bugs me is the ridged Romulans.

Not really a problem, since we only saw a smattering of TOS-era Romulans without forehead-concealing helmets: the "Balance of Terror" Commander, his Centurion, the Female Commander (Charvanek), Tal, the commander from TAS: "The Survivor," another commander and a crewman from TAS: "The Practical Joker," Caithlin Dar, Nanclus, and assorted delegates at Camp Khitomer). It's easy enough to believe that the majority of 23rd-century Romulans were already ridged, but that the elite, ruling class was smooth-headed (though that seems to have been reversed by the 24th century, since the only smoothies we've seen from that era are Nero's working-class mining crew).

Is there any reason to assume that the ridged/not-ridged difference in the Romulan population necessarily maps onto internal hierarchies to a significant degree?

The obvious parallel is with the the Quch'Ha minority among the Klingons, but it doesn't appear as if either phenotypical variation among the Romulans corresponds to anything so charged as influxes of non-Vulcanoid genes into the Romulan populations, whether by genetic engineering or by interbreeding or whatever other method. If a higher proportion of Romulans have ridged foreheads than Vulcans, in-universe that relates to the unrepresentative sampling of the Vulcan gene pool that constituted the proto-Romulan. Different Romulan populations within the empire exhibit phenotypic difference to different degrees--there's a passing line in Cast No Shadows about Devoras' Romulans tending towards ridged foreheads more than the norm, I think--but the idea of a reductive power binary doesn't strike me as having much inherent explanatory power.

Going back to the Trill, the differences strike me as manageable enough, even without Augment DNA. In the context of secrecy regarding the symbiont and transporter technology which can automatically remove parasites from the bodies of transportees, it makes perfect sense for joined Trill to insist on shuttlecrafts. Different populations of Trill (symbionts and/or hosts) may react to joining in different ways, whether for biological or cultural reasons or (most likely?) a complex combination of the two categories.

Trill secrecy regarding the symbionts does strike me as more of a stretch. I'd choose to explain it by saying that Trill, as a Federation member-state on the fringes of the UFP, chose for reasons of very long historical standing not to participate extensively in interstellar affairs, and not to have its citizens do the same. Odder things have happened. And it's clear by DS9 that the secret has leaked: Trill secrecy didn't last indefinitely.

 

[Timo]

Is there any reason to assume that the ridged/not-ridged difference in the Romulan population necessarily maps onto internal hierarchies to a significant degree?

We saw both phenotypes in leading positions - but that was mainly along the TOS/TNG divide, so we could argue that smooth foreheads indicated high social standing in TOS but a coup resulted in ridges being the mark of high class in TNG.

TNG was short on completely ridgeless Romulan elite. Yet low ridges did not seem to hinder the social progress of, say, Pardek...

If a higher proportion of Romulans have ridged foreheads than Vulcans, in-universe that relates to the unrepresentative sampling of the Vulcan gene pool that constituted the proto-Romulan.

That is my favorite take on it, too. But my second-favorite one may have some interesting evidence behind it.

Namely, it might be that ridgeheads and smoothies are one and the very same facial type. It just happens that when a smooth guy gets really excited, his face bulges. And Vulcans, being Surakians all, find it extremely distasteful to let their faces bulge in public or even in private, while Romulans take great pride in their eternal facial erections.

That would explain how the secret agent from "Data's Day", ridgeless when masquerading as Vulcan, basically immediately sprouts ridges when defecting back to the Star Empire. No need for surgery - she just relaxed after years of self-control. Older men would lamentably have trouble keeping their faces erect, and some young women might take to the military profession and get assignments on the very fringes of the Star Empire to evade the shame of their flaccid faces, too.

Trill, as a Federation member-state on the fringes of the UFP

We have precious little evidence that Trill would be a Federation member. Certainly it is possible Trill was not a member during TNG yet: Curzon and Odan would join Riva and K'Ehleyr in the series of important UFP negotiators who aren't individuals of a member species.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Is there any reason to assume that the ridged/not-ridged difference in the Romulan population necessarily maps onto internal hierarchies to a significant degree?

All the helmetless, smooth-foreheaded Romulans we saw in TOS/TAS were high-ranking officers or diplomats, suggesting they were the upper class in the 23rd century. The reverse seems to be the case in the 22nd and 24th centuries, since Romulans with more pronounced foreheads dominate the military and government, and the only smooth-headed 24th-century Romulans we've seen, Nero and the Narada crew, were working-class miners.

Different Romulan populations within the empire exhibit phenotypic difference to different degrees--there's a passing line in Cast No Shadows about Devoras' Romulans tending towards ridged foreheads more than the norm, I think--but the idea of a reductive power binary doesn't strike me as having much inherent explanatory power.

The explanation is that different creators of the fictional Trek universe have employed different makeup designs for the Romulans. Rationalizing it as a class difference is itself a fiction -- not a perfect match to reality (since you can tell that the helmeted Romulans in TOS do not have Westmore-style ridged foreheads), but a conjectural model that one can accept if one is willing to suspend disbelief and not sweat the details. Pretty much everything about Star Trek will break down if you analyze it too deeply. Every explanation for what we see in a work of fiction is itself a work of fiction and thus necessitates some willing suspension of disbelief.

Going back to the Trill, the differences strike me as manageable enough, even without Augment DNA. In the context of secrecy regarding the symbiont and transporter technology which can automatically remove parasites from the bodies of transportees, it makes perfect sense for joined Trill to insist on shuttlecrafts. Different populations of Trill (symbionts and/or hosts) may react to joining in different ways, whether for biological or cultural reasons or (most likely?) a complex combination of the two categories.

But "The Host" didn't just say that Odan had a taboo against beaming, it showed outright that when he was beamed aboard in an emergency, it severed the joining and led directly to the death of the host body. So the difference between Odan and Dax (or at least between the subspecies of host they employed) was clearly physiological, not cultural.

Trill secrecy regarding the symbionts does strike me as more of a stretch. I'd choose to explain it by saying that Trill, as a Federation member-state on the fringes of the UFP, chose for reasons of very long historical standing not to participate extensively in interstellar affairs, and not to have its citizens do the same. Odder things have happened.

Except that DS9 itself established that Dax's earlier hosts participated in the Federation for a long time, and other works have come along establishing other Trill playing significant roles in events taking place well before "The Host." For that matter, "The Host" itself established that Odan had been an ambassador for at least two host lifetimes, pretending that his successive hosts were father and son. So the idea that the Trill were isolationist before "The Host" is a non-starter.

Of course, we know now that most Trill are unjoined, so it could simply be that it was rare for joined Trill like Odan and Dax to leave the homeworld. But then, we'd be required to believe that nobody from the Federation at large ever visited or lived on Trill long enough to notice all the signs of symbiont presence.

Bottom line, the concept of Trill secrecy in "The Host" was a plot device that wasn't very well thought out, and that's probably the reason why DS9 ended up ignoring it altogether. We fans try so hard to integrate every fact into a consistent whole, but often TV producers just straight up pretend that problematical ideas from earlier episodes never happened at all.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Is there any reason to assume that the ridged/not-ridged difference in the Romulan population necessarily maps onto internal hierarchies to a significant degree?

All the helmetless, smooth-foreheaded Romulans we saw in TOS/TAS were high-ranking officers or diplomats, suggesting they were the upper class in the 23rd century. The reverse seems to be the case in the 22nd and 24th centuries, since Romulans with more pronounced foreheads dominate the military and government, and the only smooth-headed 24th-century Romulans we've seen, Nero and the Narada crew, were working-class miners.

This is true. I'm not saying that there's no reason not to have this difference. It's just that from my perspective, we've got a limited sample size of Romulans on the TV shows and no indication that forehead variation is a particularly loaded issue. (I'm not aware off-hand of many indications in the novels that forehead variation is an issue among Romulans.) There's any number of possible reasons for this, everything from random dice throws to the participation of new populations in the empire to Timo's suggestion that Romulans simply let forehead bulging occur naturally to, yes, forehead-driven politics.

I guess that what bothers me most about the idea is that it seems almost too obvious a potential cause. Cultural divisions among Romulans I'd like to see, yes, but I'd like to see something more imaginative. What about language conflict, or clan ancestry, or dietary preferences?

Different Romulan populations within the empire exhibit phenotypic difference to different degrees--there's a passing line in Cast No Shadows about Devoras' Romulans tending towards ridged foreheads more than the norm, I think--but the idea of a reductive power binary doesn't strike me as having much inherent explanatory power.

The explanation is that different creators of the fictional Trek universe have employed different makeup designs for the Romulans. Rationalizing it as a class difference is itself a fiction -- not a perfect match to reality (since you can tell that the helmeted Romulans in TOS do not have Westmore-style ridged foreheads), but a conjectural model that one can accept if one is willing to suspend disbelief and not sweat the details. Pretty much everything about Star Trek will break down if you analyze it too deeply. Every explanation for what we see in a work of fiction is itself a work of fiction and thus necessitates some willing suspension of disbelief.[/QUOTE]

Bottom line, the concept of Trill secrecy in "The Host" was a plot device that wasn't very well thought out, and that's probably the reason why DS9 ended up ignoring it altogether. We fans try so hard to integrate every fact into a consistent whole, but often TV producers just straight up pretend that problematical ideas from earlier episodes never happened at all.

What?!? Next you're going to say that there's no way Warp 10 causes human beings to mutate into amphibians. ;-)

 

[Christopher]

I guess that what bothers me most about the idea is that it seems almost too obvious a potential cause. Cultural divisions among Romulans I'd like to see, yes, but I'd like to see something more imaginative.

I think that's reading too much into this. I'm certainly not proposing some in-depth theory about Romulan class distinctions arising from differences in frontal cranial phenotype. I don't think there's a story there. It's just that Michael Westmore used a different makeup for Romulans than Fred Phillips or Barney Burman or whoever, and while it's never been made an issue of in the show and doesn't really need to be, the idea of a class distinction makes for a handy way of rationalizing this trivial inconsistency. So you're kind of getting it backwards by suggesting it's about using the foreheads to explain the class distinction. It's the other way around. And it's just a small patch on a very small continuity issue that isn't important enough to devote a great deal of analysis to.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Isn't it possible that there are two sentient humanoid species on Trill (like the Valakians and the Menk?) and one is less able to join than the other? Bashir discovered that a great deal of the population can be Joined but the Symbiosis Commission prevented that from being known for decades or even centuries.

It is entirely possible that the Odan-type Trill were a slightly less developed humanoid species (like the Menk) and it was the incident with Odan that caused the Symbiosis Commission to stop Joining them with symbionts, leaving only the Jadzia-type. Alternatively, the Odan-type could be the older humanoid species and were dying out because evolution dictated that the Jadzia-type were better suited to the current environment and the Joining was more robust in them than in the Odan-type.