The TNG "Ensemble" (The people who weren't Picard or Data)

[Newspaper Taxi]

I asked myself today, "What did Geordi, Troi, and Crusher even do in the TNG movies?" I know Troi got drunk in First Contact; I don't remember Crusher doing anything of importance in the movies. I remember Geordi helped Data with the emotions chip in GEN and had a very nice scene where he sees a sunset for the first time in INS. Worf and Riker were neglected as well but not to the point of those other three. Worf managed to get into a number of fight scenes and he said "Assimilate This!" in First Contact. Riker got to do some stuff in First Contact and got to do some lovey-dovey stuff with Troi in INS and NEM.

Am I forgetting an important scene with Crusher? Did she have any "big" moments in the movies? I'd also like to leave you with some questions: Who got the shortest stick of the TNG Ensmble? How would you have used the ensemble characters within the framework of the existing movies? And any other comments you may have. Let's discuss stuff.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

The funny thing is, per the discussion in this thread, they went to a lot of effort creating convoluted reasons for Worf to be in all the movies.

Then they really didn't utilize him too much.

The same could be said for the non "big-3" of the TOS cast in their movies.

Though we kind of got used to the secondary characters getting their moments in the show, but with 7 seasons, they had a lot of time to do that.

I'm not sure they ever knew if there was going to be a "next" movie, so they probably felt they had to stick with the "mains".

 

[tafkats]

I try to ignore the second two TNG movies.

In GEN, the moments that spring immediately to mind are Crusher getting pushed into the water, Geordi counseling Data about his chip and helping him look for Spot, and Troi talking to Picard about his brother and nephew and crashing the ship into a planet.

In FC, the Picard-and-Data Show factor is greatly increased.

 

[7thsealord]

There was the Sickbay scene in FC, where Crusher finds a new use for the EMH.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

There was the Sickbay scene in FC, where Crusher finds a new use for the EMH.

And the deleted scene where she finds a different new "use" for the EMH

 

[Dr. Crusher]

I think that the role of the "ensemble," Dr. Crusher included, greatly decreased over the course of the four movies. Arguably the best "ensemble" film of the four was "First Contact." Had the script writers not also wished to include Lily's character in the film, "First Contact" may have had much more of an "ensemble" feel to it.

"Insurrection" was certainly another Picard/Data show, and Nemesis was even more of the same. It's a shame because the success of the TV program was really based on how well the characters interacted together and worked together as a group. Many of the TOS films managed to retain a good grip on the "ensemble," and perhaps this is why many think they were better films.

 

[Vasquez Rocks]

Dr. Crusher was the one who discovered the Son'a and Ba'ku were the same race in Insurrection and in Nemesis, she was the one that explained things about Shinzon, like his need for Picard's blood. That was about it for those two films.

The funny thing is, in Michael Piller's book "Fade In" one of the Paramount higher-ups even asked why Beverly was being underused. And what was the purpose of wanting another Barclay cameo (which they ultimately didn't do for INS) when you already have a cast of seven that's not being fully used.

Surprising to see the studio more on top of this then the writers of the films.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

I think Lily's role in FC could have (and should have) been rewritten for Crusher because she already had a lot of chemistry with Picard. She was the most underused character in the films, IMO.

 

[BillJ]

I think Lily's role in FC could have (and should have) been rewritten for Crusher because she already had a lot of chemistry with Picard. She was the most underused character in the films, IMO.

That would've made it a terrible film. Gates McFadden has nowhere near the screen presence of Alfre Woodard.

Plus, there would've been no need for Picard's "no money" line that everyone around here seemingly masturbates to.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

I think Lily's role in FC could have (and should have) been rewritten for Crusher because she already had a lot of chemistry with Picard. She was the most underused character in the films, IMO.

That would've made it a terrible film. Gates McFadden has nowhere near the screen presence of Alfre Woodard.

Plus, there would've been no need for Picard's "no money" line that everyone around here seemingly masturbates to.

I had no issues with Alfre Woodard. She's a great actor and she did a very fine job in FC. Nevertheless, wouldn't it have made more sense to give her role to a character who had already been established, who audiences were already familiar with, and who already had chemistry with Picard?
Once again, I was very happy with Alfre Woodard, but lately I've wondered how FC would have turned out if her role had been rewritten for Crusher. Would it have been better? Maybe, or maybe not. Like you said, Woodard has a stronger on screen presence than McFadden, but there are also plenty of reasons why McFadden would have fit the role better.

 

[Trek Survivor]

I think Lily's role in FC could have (and should have) been rewritten for Crusher because she already had a lot of chemistry with Picard. She was the most underused character in the films, IMO.

That would've made it a terrible film. Gates McFadden has nowhere near the screen presence of Alfre Woodard.

Plus, there would've been no need for Picard's "no money" line that everyone around here seemingly masturbates to.

I had no issues with Alfre Woodard. She's a great actor and she did a very fine job in FC. Nevertheless, wouldn't it have made more sense to give her role to a character who had already been established, who audiences were already familiar with, and who already had chemistry with Picard?
Once again, I was very happy with Alfre Woodard, but lately I've wondered how FC would have turned out if her role had been rewritten for Crusher. Would it have been better? Maybe, or maybe not. Like you said, Woodard has a stronger on screen presence than McFadden, but there are also plenty of reasons why McFadden would have fit the role better.

No, it needed to be Lily. It would've been a worse movie with Crusher in that position - it would've needed a lot of rewriting: Remember, Picard was her senior officer, so - even with heavy emotion - she couldn't have said the same things or reacted like Lily.

I must be the only TNG (almost exclusively these days) fan who doesn't bemoan the use of the cast in the movies. I understand that these are movies and they work differently than the TV show; I understand that you're always going to need a tighter scope of main characters for a movie to be successful; I understand that Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner had very good agents, a good leverage position and the two most popular characters of TNG.

Having said that, I thought TROI got the third best showing the movies (for a supporting player, she got enough to do in all four films: Geordi next (captured in Generations, working with Cochrane in FC, 2nd in command in Insurrection... it's only Nemesis where he was shortchanged), then Worf (esp in FC) and then poor old Riker. He was suitably heroic, but deserved some more - though both "First Contact" and "Insurrection" seemed to give him a generous amount.

Of course, Crusher had the least screen time and impact in the film, but that more or less mirrors the series.

The mistake people make when talking about the "ensemble" (and it is a wonderful ensemble, I love the show) is assuming this somehow means they were all equal, there weren't "main" characters etc. Officially, Stewart and Frakes were always the "stars" of the show; unofficially, Picard, Riker and Data were always the TNG equivalent of the "big three".

 

[Jeyl]

That would've made it a terrible film. Gates McFadden has nowhere near the screen presence of Alfre Woodard.

Plus, there would've been no need for Picard's "no money" line that everyone around here seemingly masturbates to.

If Gates McFadden is a problem, raplace her! :P

But honestly, I have a love/hate relationship with the use of Lilly in First Contact. While I think the role really added layers to Picard's conflict with the Borg and really brought some much needed common sense to the storyline, she still is what she is. A one shot character who gets more screen time, more development and has a more importance role than the regular characters and will be forgotten after this film is over. It's like Deckard and Illia from The Motion Picture. They take up a bulk of the story, completely overshadow the regulars by having more dialogue than most of them combined but they're forgotten when it's all over.

If I had to do First Contact over again, I would have given Lilly's scenes to Crusher. I know the dynamic between future and past civilizations clashing with each other is a good story device, but we were already getting that with Cochran's B-Story on Earth. Just move some of Lilly's lines into those scenes and leave the Borg conflict to it's own devices. And why not Crusher? Both her and Picard have struggled together with the Borg many times in many different situations. The story potential for the two of them dealing with the Borg and their conflicting views would have been great for the two characters because they're the ones who will still be around after all of this is over and their relatiwere at the heart of the Borg conflict when it happened. And in the end, their relationship would have been different, and they would still be around. But when Lilly's role is over, it's no different than a big reset button. Picard may have changed, but Lilly is gone and everyone else is still the same...

...until we get to Nemesis. Thanks to that film, Picard never really learned to put his personel views behind him when the safety of his crew is concerned when he beamed over to the Scimitar to fight Shinzon because "it's something I have to do."

 

[DonIago]

All this discussion of Beverly as Lilly makes me wonder how much different and possibly(?) better FC might have been if the Borg in FC don't have a queen at all...until they assimilate Beverly and decide to make her their spokesperson during the events of the film.

Of course the ending would need to be altered, but I think the overall film might benefit from seeing Beverly assimilated (oh look, a TNG film that takes risks) and Picard and Data having to deal with this.

Not like she did much of anything else during the movie...

 

[Jeyl]

All this discussion of Beverly as Lilly makes me wonder how much different and possibly(?) better FC might have been if the Borg in FC don't have a queen at all...until they assimilate Beverly and decide to make her their spokesperson during the events of the film.

I always looked at the Borg Queen as a bad idea. It gave the Borg a tangible leader who, once defeated, causes all the Borg drones to be destroyed. That's something that was never a problem with the Borg before when the crew captured Locutus. Even the Dominion didn't have issues like that. After the female changling was captured, she didn't surrender, and killing her wouldn't have stopped anything. Yet the Borg are supposed to be the Federations most "Lethal enemy".

That's not a stab against Alice Krige. She did a fantastic job with what she was given. But with all those scenes focusing on the Borg Queen, it really does diminesh any kind of suspense or danger that the Borg use to pose especially when the Queen gets all flirty dirty with Data. Less is more. I mean, how did we go from this...

Troi: We're not dealing with a single leader. It's the collective minds of all of them. A single leader can make mistakes which would be unlikely with he combined whole.

To this?

Borg Queen: As you see, I've already found an equal.
*Later when he betrays her*
Borg Queen: DATA!
Data: Resistance is futile.

At least when the female changling was flirting with Odo, that actually accomplished something that hindered our heroes.

 

[BillJ]

If Gates McFadden is a problem, raplace her! :P

Gates McFadden is perfectly fine as Dr. Crusher, but the actress nor the character fit what Lily Sloan was.

LILY: I am such an idiot. ...It's so simple. The Borg hurt you, and now you're going to hurt them back.
PICARD: In my century we don't succumb to revenge. We have a more evolved sensibility.
LILY: Bullshit! I saw the look on your face when you shot those Borg on the holodeck. You were almost enjoying it!
PICARD: How dare you!
LILY: Oh, come on, Captain. You're not the first man to get a thrill from murdering someone. I see it all the time.
PICARD: Get out!
LILY: Or what? You'll kill me, like you killed Ensign Lynch
PICARD: There was no way to save him.
LILY: You didn't even try. Where was your evolved sensibility then?

***

LILY: Jean-Luc, blow up the damn ship!

Could you see McFadden or the Crusher character deliver those lines? Those are the lines that sell that Picard is sitting precariously close to the edge. They had to be delivered from an outsider, someone who Picard knew to be unbiased. They had to be from someone who'd also seen the horrors of carnage. Crusher was none of those things.

 

[Jeyl]

Could you see McFadden or the Crusher character deliver those lines? Those are the lines that sell that Picard is sitting precariously close to the edge. They had to be delivered from an outsider, someone who Picard knew to be unbiased. They had to be from someone who'd also seen the horrors of carnage. Crusher was none of those things.

First off, Crusher had seen the carnage that the Borg inflicted upon the Federation. Wolf 359, Picard's assimilation. How is that not the kind of Carnage that Picard faced? That alone makes Crusher the kind of person who is perfectly suited to call out Picard.

Also, I never said that Crusher should deliver Lilly's lines blow for blow. Just because the subject has to be different doesn't mean it can't bring the same results. I think the point that Beverly could make in this discussion is how Picard is handling the Borg when compared to how his crew handled the Borg when Picard was captured. In the Best of Both Worlds, the crew were fighting the Borg in an effort to save Picard. In First Contact, Picard isn't fighting the Borg to save anyone, he's fighting them because he personally wants to kill them. The difference here is that Picard is willing to let there be casualties, a stark contrast in what the crew tried to do when they were trying to save him.

Crusher could make the point that during all this time, Picard has not brought up a single plan or asked about the possibilities of rescueing the crew that had already been assimilated, since being a Borg doesn't mean you're without hope of going back to who you once were. He simply doesn't care. For a character like Crusher to simply brush it off as "once the captain has made up his mind, the discussion is over" is totally out of character. That's never really stopped her in the past, especially when they encountered a particular Borg Drone that would later be known as Hugh.

And another point Crusher could make towards Picard is why the Admiral didn't allow them to participate in the Borg battle. This is exactly what the admiral didn't want to happen, and Crusher now understands why that is.

You see how much material there is that can make this conflict between Crusher and Picard work?

 

[BillJ]

Could you see McFadden or the Crusher character deliver those lines? Those are the lines that sell that Picard is sitting precariously close to the edge. They had to be delivered from an outsider, someone who Picard knew to be unbiased. They had to be from someone who'd also seen the horrors of carnage. Crusher was none of those things.

First off, Crusher had seen the carnage that the Borg inflicted upon the Federation. Wolf 359, Picard's assimilation. How is that not the kind of Carnage that Picard faced? That alone makes Crusher the kind of person who is perfectly suited to call out Picard.

Also, I never said that Crusher should deliver Lilly's lines blow for blow. Just because the subject has to be different doesn't mean it can't bring the same results. I think the point that Beverly could make in this discussion is how Picard is handling the Borg when compared to how his crew handled the Borg when Picard was captured. In the Best of Both Worlds, the crew were fighting the Borg in an effort to save Picard. In First Contact, Picard isn't fighting the Borg to save anyone, he's fighting them because he personally wants to kill them. The difference here is that Picard is willing to let there be casualties, a stark contrast in what the crew tried to do when they were trying to save him.

Crusher could make the point that during all this time, Picard has not brought up a single plan or asked about the possibilities of rescueing the crew that had already been assimilated, since being a Borg doesn't mean you're without hope of going back to who you once were. He simply doesn't care. For a character like Crusher to simply brush it off as "once the captain has made up his mind, the discussion is over" is totally out of character. That's never really stopped her in the past, especially when they encountered a particular Borg Drone that would later be known as Hugh.

And another point Crusher could make towards Picard is why the Admiral didn't allow them to participate in the Borg battle. This is exactly what the admiral didn't want to happen, and Crusher now understands why that is.

You see how much material there is that can make this conflict between Crusher and Picard work?

But you're turning it into a clinical evaluation and have completely drained all the passion out of the scene. The scene works as is and is one of the more powerful scenes in all of Trek. And it works because you have two passionate actors doing it.

 

[Dr. Crusher]

I think Lily's role in FC could have (and should have) been rewritten for Crusher because she already had a lot of chemistry with Picard. She was the most underused character in the films, IMO.

I agree, although I know several people who have responded to this comment do not. I did like Lily--the whole concept of bringing someone on board from the "past," which was somewhat akin to the episode "Who Watches the Watchers," was a very creative idea. I did like her approach when she spoke with Picard about his pursuit of the Borg. However, I feel that the spirit of TNG was about the ensemble cast and the relationships they had with each other. Although Dr. Crusher filling some of the role that Lily played would have been different, I don't feel it would have been worse. I think, instead, that it would have brought back in one of the major relationship dynamics of the TNG TV series. The series was very much about the different dynamics between the different characters, and I think was probably one of the most important things that carried the series and made it as good as it was. It is also one of the main things that is missing from the movies.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I did like Lily--the whole concept of bringing someone on board from the "past," which was somewhat akin to the episode "Who Watches the Watchers," was a very creative idea. I did like her approach when she spoke with Picard about his pursuit of the Borg.

It's also a similar role to Gillian Taylor in ST IV: a popular female guest in a popular movie, and fulfilling an anchor role for the regulars who are caught like fish out of water, centuries away from their comfort zone.