I disagree . . . regarding your assessment of "Back to the Future" and "Jurassic Park".
"The third great SF franchise"??
- Thread starter RAMA
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I disagree . . . regarding your assessment of "Back to the Future" and "Jurassic Park".
It's sad to say, but Babylon 5 isn't even close to being on the same planet as Trek and Wars. It was a great show, but hasn't had anywhere near the staying power, or pop culture influence as Trek and Wars. If I got out on the street and ask random people what a Klingon or a Jedi are, quite a few of them would probably have at least some idea, but it would probably take a long time to find someone who knowns what a Narn or Centauri is. Hell, most of them would probably think they're from Star Trek or Star Wars.
In the Fantasy Realm (of SF/F) the top three are quite clearly:
So, of the non-literary candidates provided, I think it's clear that the most culturally connected choice is Doctor Who.
If we're going to find the top three across everything listed in all the realms discussed... I think it goes:
- Tolkien (everything about Middle Earth, books and film adaptations etc., spawning empires in their own right like D&D and Game of Thrones) This position in number 1 is by such a huge margin that arguably everything else in the genre is an "also ran" - the genre was created by Tolkien. 40 years after his death, Tolkien's works are still being published, still being read, still being adapted for film and TV.
- Rowling (everything about the potterverse) Harry Potter is huge and growing, and it's position as a "coming of age" story means it will be a series widely read by children as they become able to. Rowling is continuing to generate stories (across multiple media forms).
- Martin (a.k.a. Song of Ice and Fire, a.k.a. Game of Thrones) Undeniable popularity thanks to the HBO series, inspired by Tolkien, and as a more "adult" franchise it won't have the same cultural penetration and endurance of the higher ones on the list. I have serious doubts about staying power after the HBO series ends and/or the last books are published. Tolkien died over 40 years ago, and his work is still having a great impact. Martin wrote his series because he was inspired by Tolkien; it will take another generation to know if Martin's works remain this high on the rankings.
- Lewis (The Narnia stories) Too niche and overtly religious, but have had a strong staying power, written in parallel with Lewis' close friend Tolkien's works (they often reviewed/edited/assisted the other in their respected works). Several cinematic and TV adaptations have been tried, but none have captured the whole, and they have all been rather lackluster as a whole. 50 years after his passing, his stories are still being read, still in publication.
- Superman (could be the MCU, but the MCU is too new to demonstrate the longevity required)
- Marvel Cinematic Universe (would be number 1, but Superman has been around for decades)
- Batman (A bunch of films, animated series, and older live-action TV. Not as old as Superman, but close)
- Star Trek (in first place because this is the TREK BBS) - A cultural touchstone that is approachable without deep investment, while revealing much more depth on deeper investment. While it has recently faded a bit, 50 years on it is still instantly recognizable, spawning catch-phrases, discussions, and still making money. It's storytelling role is to take a viewer and show them a better world, and to hold up a mirror to our own world and show us how we should strive to be better.
- Star Wars (In second place because this is the TREK BBS) - A cultural touchstone that crosses generations and reminds us of our shared heritage by the archtypical icons and stories. While going in fits and starts (and sometimes backwards - the less said about the prequels the better), almost 40 years on it is still instantly recognizable, spawning catch-phrases, discussions, and still making money. It's storytelling role is to take a viewer and show them of the "noble times" or "time of heroes" when great people did great things for great causes (good and evil - there are few shades of gray).
- Doctor Who - A series older than Star Trek, not as known as an American cultural touchstone, it is certainly recognized by most Americans as a British cultural touchstone and is known worldwide. It doesn't have the catch-phrases and such that ST/SW have (known outside the fanbase). The storytelling role is to take a contemporary viewer and show them the wild and wide universe. This may be a long time ago far away, or right here, or next week, or the heat death of the universe, or the dawn of time. It shows that anything is possible, it *may* teach some history, it *may* teach some morals, but it is very sporadic in this, and I have a difficult time discerning a more distinct theme.
- Stargate - NOT a cultural touchstone, not widely known. While I love the way it took the contemporary viewer and showed a wider universe, it did some exploring of some of the deeper SF questions (What if... we let robots get out of control e.g. Replicators; What if... life was measured in days or weeks not years... etc.).
- Firefly - A geek touchstone, not as much of a cultural one. Much to love out of this too-short franchise, and it had great potential... but being cut down in it's prime limits it's ability to contest for the 3rd spot.
- Back to the Future - A cultural touchstone (in America) to be sure. It has catchphrases, spawns discussions, etc. - but mostly due to the recent passing of the longest dates (the visit to 2015). Unless they do a reboot/sequel, this will likely quickly fade from memory. A repetitive trilogy (the one where they travel to the past, beat up the bully, fix the future, and setup the sequel), while fun, just isn't going to have the staying power *cough* (I mean, it's not like one of our top two have something like the one with an orphan, a droid, the force, top secret information, being chased by the empire, a shady bar, and a super weapon...)
- Babylon 5 - Another geek touchstone; it made more of a cultural impact than Firefly (by right of it living longer). It asked some of the deep SF questions, and had a very engaging plot. EFX were groundbreaking, but now look positively ancient (CGI was not ready for prime time). It has passed out of memory of even many of the geek community (note that while DW, SG, Firefly, and BTTF have listings on Thinkgeek, B5 does not).
- Twilight Zone - the oldest TV/Cinema series under discussion (since 1958 in writing, 1959 in terms of broadcast). It has been quite a touchstone, but it is remembered by culture more as a part of early TV along side Candid Camera and Jackie Gleason; and less as a SF series. Still, it is most certainly a well known SF franchise; but the most iconic part was Rod Serling's opening narration (repeated in style in Outer Limits); which is perhaps more widely known today through the Futurama spoof "The Scary Door." While distinct series, Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, and Night Gallery are often thought of (as far as I can ascertain) as the same thing. While there have been a number of reboots and reprisals of these series over the years, the renewals did not hold on well nor really penetrate the public consciousness to any significant degree.
So, of the non-literary candidates provided, I think it's clear that the most culturally connected choice is Doctor Who.
If we're going to find the top three across everything listed in all the realms discussed... I think it goes:
- Tolkien
- Star Wars
- Superman
- Tolkien
- Rowling
- Azimov
Lost in Space
Star Wars
Star trek.
Lost in Space got me into SF so it will always be first in my mind.
Star Wars
Star trek.
Lost in Space got me into SF so it will always be first in my mind.
And three TV movies/direct-to-DVD movies typing up the SG1 series, with a fourth that was going to be made but fell through.
The same can be said about Doctor Who.
Gotta be. Fantasy is is a sub genre to Science Fiction. Not only has the Potterverse spawned 9 movies (in addition to the original 7 novels), it has been the inspiration for theme park attractions as well as it's own theme park, a broadway play, products of all types.
.
Fantasy is not a "sub-genre" of Science Fiction; it is a genre unto itself that is often spoken of in concert/conjunction with Sci-Fi.
Harry Potter, as successful as it is, is NOT SF, it is fantasy, so it does not get #3 position in this thread. And LotR is also Fantasy.
For those who classify SW as fantasy, it's not. Just because it starts with a long time ago in a galaxy far away, the contents of the movies are SF - spaceships, battles etc... make it SF.
I believe number 3 is Doctor Who. It's been around longer than either SW or ST, it has ebbs and flows over it's time and is very popular now worldwide including the US. Even before the RTD relaunch, if someone in the US saw someone with a long multi-colored scarf, they'd associate that with the Doctor (#4). Most people knew what a Dalek was and knew the TARDIS. Now, even more. Now they (Americans) can name the actors, the villains and the equipment (sonic anyone?). So, Number 3 is Doctor Who
Most SF on TV and in movies is actually fantasy and contains almost no credible science. For example, time travel in the Potterverse is no less credible than in Doctor Who, which, in the modern incarnation, is basically a collection of fairy tales anyway.
I have to disagree, Doctor Who is pretty big right now. You can find products for it fairly easily, and I see a lot of people with Doctor Who clothes and other things while at work, which is more than I can say for Trek.
In my head Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica battle for 3rd position (after Star Trek and Star Wars of course!) What can I say, I love space operas!
This topic is not about what individual people think is the 3rd greatest SF franchise; it's about what could be universally considered the 3rd greatest SF franchise.
I personally love B5 and BSG, but their overall cultural appeal is decidedly "niche".
I personally love B5 and BSG, but their overall cultural appeal is decidedly "niche".
We need some objective criteria in that case. Only we'll probably never agree what those criteria are nor what does or does not constitute SF. I agree that Harry Potter is best described as fantasy rather than SF. I think I was arguing that if it were in the SF category, it would be second rather than third -- well, actually, I can't recall what I was on about as it was too long ago.
Criteria such as
Longevity
Cross Media (i.e TV/Film/Books/Comics)
General Awarness
The first two I listed are easy, the third is slighlty more subjective and could vary from country to country.
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