• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

"The third great SF franchise"??

If it weren't for the films, The Godfather would have been no more than fodder for airports. Puzo is often chagrined at it since it as a piece of literature. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204886304574308603266273652

Sci-Fi to the general public is primarily visual, followed by a few books. Ridley Scott and James Cameron have had a tremendous impact on the visual side. Book wise, alone, Potter is simply a force to be reckoned with, combined with the films and merchandise it is the big thing for kids growing up. Star Trek is a geriatric franchise which doesn't compare with Potter or Star Wars for money or Aliens and Terminator for simple recognition.
 
I am sure potter was the big thing for kids growing up five or ten years ago but I was at my nephew's birthday party (he's seven) and while there were a lot of Star Wars, superhero and minecraft toys and costumes - nobody was dressed as Harry Potter or playing with Harry Potter toys.
 
Re: Trek_God The link gave the overall amount of profit for Warner bros, and then showed the percentage of avenues that generated it. You might find it ridiculous, but you haven't actually posted anything that proves that number wrong either, other than 'But...But Treks been running longer! And I used to see toys everywhere! And selling the entire series for reruns made nearly the same amount of money as one of the smallest ongoeing streams of Potters income!'

I also don't have to prove how 'ingrained in culture' Potter and Trek are, because I never claimed one beat the other in the first place. I was just pointing out that relying on Treks merch sales to help prove its high position was pretty flawed. In terms of proveable numbers, the younger Wars, Potter, Avengers ($6bill merch in one year) etc have it beat. Second, it's nearly impossible to prove 'impact'. That sort of argument inevitably going to fall into the 'my anecdote trumps your anecdote!' trap, especially once somone tries to claim 'but the actual number of people who repeatedly watched it doesn't mean anything.'

As for The Godfather, gotta admit that I still can't find any of these critics calling it a great piece of literature. A positive contemporary review of it: https://www.nytimes.com/books/97/05/18/reviews/puzo-godfather.html still has it as 'good, but flawed.' The only place I can find that reference to critics calling it one of the greatest novels of all time is in the books blurb. Any sort of published 'Greatest/Best-selling/Must Read' list I can find it on also includes Potter, seemingly because they focus on the more...quantifiable expressions of success.
 
Last edited:
To this day, i've not seen random people or the media use any character references or catchphrases from Potter on a common basis

You don't really see people reference LoTR either, but Tolkien's influence and public awareness of it is undeniable.

Harry Potter is the best selling book series of all time, by a wide margin. All 7 of them are in the top 20 if you go by single volume. And it's been ever present in the public for almost 20 years now. To say it's not influential, or didn't have an impact is disingenuous.
 
After seeing tourists queue up to take a photo of platform 9 3/4 whenever I pass through King's Cross and knowing how much revenue has been generated ($25 billion compared with $30 billion for Star Wars pre TFA), I suspect that Harry Potter is actually the de facto second franchise rather than merely the third. I don't know the revenue for Star Trek, but a figure of $6 billion seems to get bandied around.
 
I think people are more making the argument that it's amongest the top 3 biggest Sci-Fi franchises after SW and ST.

Avatar is what 1 movie and perhaps a few other tie in mdeia, sure it has a few sequels planned but does 1 movie make a franchise?

Halo I must have missed those 4 movies mentioned in the orignal post

B5 one moderatly succesful series and two failed spinoffs

War of the Worlds, 7 movies unrealtred to each other and a TV show based of the 1960's movie which last two series and I doubt many people on the street even remember there was a TV series.

Lost in Space sure people might remember it for the Robot and Dr. Smith but it hasn't really stood the test of time like ST or DW. The movie didn't exactly set the box office alight and didn't it have a failed attempt at a TV series a few years back

Avatar made as much as 3-4 other blockbuster movies put together. There are 2-3 sequels planned.

Halo: Nightfall
Halo: Fall of Reach
Halo: Forward Until Dawn
Halo: Legends
 
And its cultural impact is next to zero.
Nonsense. It dominated movie box office far longer than most films today and people were talking about it again when it came out on bluray. I don't think there's any movie more anticipated than the next Avatar sequel.
 
^^
The only time I see Avatar come up is in regards to how much money it made.

The only impact it had was technical, everyone's doing 3D now so they can crank up ticket prices. That's about it.

I don't see its story or characters referenced, and I haven't noticed any buzz or anticipation for the sequel. So if there's any fandom they're really, really quiet or keeping to themselves in some corner of the interwebs I don't frequent...
 
As it turns out, Avatar touched our "Wow", but it couldn't find our Heart or Head...many of the others, listed above by you all, did!
 
And its cultural impact is next to zero.
On the contrary, it made such a cultural impact that many people either contemplated, attempted or succeeded in committing suicide because "they long to enjoy the beauty of the alien world Pandora".

One person named "Naviblue" said:
"Ever since I went to see 'Avatar' I have been depressed. Watching the wonderful world of Pandora and all the Na'vi made me want to be one of them. I can't stop thinking about all the things that happened in the film and all of the tears and shivers I got from it,"
...
"I even contemplate suicide thinking that if I do it I will be rebirthed in a world similar to Pandora and the everything is the same as in 'Avatar.' "
Now, as stupid as I thought all the hubbub was over that film, it could be strongly argued that people wanting to commit suicide over this could conceivably count towards "cultural impact", to some degree. At least with regard to some severely disturbed people who are in need of professional help. Not exactly a shining endorsement or example, but there it is.

We certainly don't have to like it (I don't), but the impact cannot be denied.
 
But did those stories happen just after the movie came out or now, years later? It was incredibly popular at the time, but it isn't constantly referenced the same way things like Star Trek, Star Wars, or Harry Potter are. Pretty much anytime something space related comes up, there's a pretty good chance you'll get a reference to one of the ST or SW, and if contemporary fantasy comes up you'll get a Harry Potter reference. I don't really remember ever seeing those kinds of references to Avatar in the last few years.
Nonsense. It dominated movie box office far longer than most films today and people were talking about it again when it came out on bluray. I don't think there's any movie more anticipated than the next Avatar sequel.
Really? There is no way the anticipation for it is at the same level as it was for Star Wars last year, or Batman v Superman or Captain America: Civil War this year. I've seen some stories about it on the entertainment news sites, but there doesn't seem to be anywhere near the level of excitement I've seen for other movies. Hell, I think there is probably more excitement for the Independence Day sequel than there is for the Avatar sequel. That might change some one we get solid news, but right now I doubt it's even on most people's radar.
Your original point was a comparison of merchadise produced:


The link does not offer any details about that, so I would say it is not at all rational to conclude a property heavily merchandised for 50 years is somehow behind a property that is not as long lived or prolific in the ancillary market.

I do see one curious similarity in numbers: the Potter link claims a theme park attraction earned $364 million.
The TIME ST piece says the cable network TNN (now Spike) paid exactly $364 million to rerun various ST episodes in 2001.

As mentioned earlier, with 14 additional years of earnings and innumerable items produced since that 2002 article, who can honestly doubt ST's merchandise profile is not paralleled or surpassed by many properties.

Next, you still have not proven that Potter is so ingrained in the popular culture in the way ST is. You posted box office earnings. That alone does not demonstrate cultural impact, otherwise, characters and dialogue from Avatar would be on the lips and minds of the average person. It is not.

To this day, i've not seen random people or the media use any character references or catchphrases from Potter on a common basis, but ST is everywhere. In more recent history, the term "redshirts" (a direct reference to you know who) has taken a reverential life in media culture, standing alongside the rest of the ST terms, catchphrases or dialogue so inseparable from the world. Where is the potter parallel?



What? The novel was a runaway bestseller (and inspired the aforementioned outrage from certain parts of society)--the very reason Paramount moved to adapt it not long after its publication. The novel was praised when first published and is considered one of the great works of fiction of the 20th century. What Potter book is considered one of the great works of a century?
Sure the Godfather book might have been popular, but there is no way it was at the same level as Harry Potter. It was the movie that brought it up to where it is now. When people talk about The Godfather they talk about the movie, they reference the diner scene from the movie, the horse head scene from the movie, and when people mention specific names they are Francis Ford Coppola or Marlon Brando, not Mario Puzo. Hell, I didn't even know it was a book first until fairly recently.
On the other hand with Harry Potter, there's almost an equally good chance that they are talking about the books as there is they are talking about the movies. People talk about the big character death in the sixth book, just as much as they do that scene in the movie, if not more. JK Rowling is probably even more closely related to the franchise than David Yates or Daniel Radcliffe.
People went to bookstores are midnight and lined up around the block outside of them for the new Harry Potter books, and I doubt that happened when The Godfather came out. Harry Potter started a lot of kids reading, and even a lot of adults who never read read the HP books. I doubt very much that the Godfather book had that kind of impact, if it did I probably would have known it existed before just a few years ago.
 
Harry Potter has had huge cultural influence though I am personally not a fan. Whenever I talk to people who LOVE Potter they tell me the same thing. 'Read the books before you see the movies.' Box office celebrations create a false sense of cultural impact. Of course more casual fans watch the movie of something than read the book. It's a much smaller time investment.

As for Avatar. Everybody thinks the effects are beautiful but you don't see a million kids dressing up as Na'vi on Halloween or collectors spending obscene amounts on Avatar figurines.
 
1. Star War represents a mythlogical past as it takes place along time ago. 2. Star Trek represents an idealized future.
3. Stargate represents a fictional present where we are exploring the universe using alien tech.
4. Babylon 5 has excellent story telling.

Dr Who is an overrated show.
 
Avatar made as much as 3-4 other blockbuster movies put together. There are 2-3 sequels planned.

Halo: Nightfall
Halo: Fall of Reach
Halo: Forward Until Dawn
Halo: Legends


Aren't those Halo mini-series and not movies?
 
Avatar was a lot like The Matrix. Incredibly popular at the time, but with very little lasting impact.

Anticipation for a sequel? From who?
 
Maybe the Stargate franchise but you have Marvel, DC and all those other anime movies from Japan...Marvel is scifi even if it is fanasty, I like the way JMS wrote the rainbow Bifrost Bridge as a wormhole through space and time

Lasting impact
I might say Blade Runner, its only one movie, it was ripped by critics
but its impact huge and it defined the Cyber-Punk genre

War of the World might also be there, since it inspired all other alien invasion books, video game, movies
...it might also be argued simpler shows tv like Futurama and X-Files helped shape scifi on tv
 
Avatar was a lot like The Matrix. Incredibly popular at the time, but with very little lasting impact.

Anticipation for a sequel? From who?

Again wrong. Matrix was amazingly influential: from simple action elements. FX, from technology, to copycat films, to the general genre worlds of cyberpunk, transhumanism, the Singularity...it is one of the handful of post-Singularity flicks that exists.
 
So I'm still mulling it over. If I had to pick this top 3 (and I don't think I want to), the front runner might be.....

Godzilla.
30 films over 60+ years is really hard to beat.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top