Spoilers The thing in bay 12

[fireproof78]

Too much LDS in the Sixties?

Not sure what the Mormon Church was up to in the 60s...

 

[Deks]

Then why were people flying around during the TNG era in Excelsiors and Mirandas? Why were they using them to fight the Dominion? If you can build a ship that quickly why isn't every ship in the Dominion war a Sovereign or a Defiant?

Leftover ships from the previous era for which SF saw no need to retire them from service?
The USS Lakota was upgraded and it managed to fight the Defiant (a modern 24th century warship) to a standstil.
You think they wouldn't have upgraded the Miranda's and Excelsiors to sport all the latest technologies inside?

The exterior hull alterations were probably not scheduled for those classes of ships at the time. SF just saw it fit to upgrade their internals for the time being because they were in service for that long, and then later they decided to change/update the exterior hull design to conform to late/very late 24th or early 25th century standards.

Real world explanation: budgetary constraints for the most part... but in-universe DS9 still showcased that you can upgrade an 80 year old design internally to pretty much the latest standards... and externally, they probably do that only if/when necessary (but even 23rd century Starfleet did that already with the Constitution class (at least twice if SNW is part of the same prime timeline) - they had molecular manufacturing and atomic scale manufacturing back then [even better, WE have developed those technologies in 2015 and 2018]).

 

[Macintosh]

It was NEVER stated that it takes years to build a starship... otherwise, the Dominion War would have been lost very quickly.
The Delta Flyer was built manually by the VOY crew inside a week... minimum or little automation working on it in the process.

It took a crew of 150 people a week to build a ship the size of a small bus. A Galaxy-class ship is over 17,000 times larger. Do you really need this explaining to you?

Seriously next to superluminal computing + replicators + tractor beams, etc... it would literally be simple to replicate smaller sections of a starhip (each roughly the size of a shuttle and just attach them all together.
Its not that big of a deal.

And yet... they never do that. Industrial replicators are incredibly rare and highly prized; there are only a handful per planet. We know the energy costs and computational requirements of replicators scale exponentially with the size and complexity of what is being replicated. And some materials cannot be replicated. Besides, if you require a single large casting, such as for a reactor pressure vessel or a Bussard collector cap, only being able to replicate it in sections will be of no use.

Non-salvageable my rear end... they have the ability to reconstruct matter from base elements for crying out loud... its not a huge deal to rebuild the saucer and make a new stardrive section inside a month with all the automation Starfleet has.

Let's do some sums.

Assuming it has the same density and is composed of much the same material as an Intrepid-class, the saucer of a Galaxy-class starship weighs just over 4 million tons. Replicating something like this, assuming perfect efficiency, would require something like 380 yottajoules of energy. That's about the same as the maximum explosive yield of about 1 billion photon torpedoes – or about the same amount of energy as our sun releases every second. Where would you store this? How would you channel it? How would you join the pieces of starship together again afterwards? And we haven't even got on to discussing the data storage requirements yet...

 

[Deks]

It took a crew of 150 people a week to build a ship the size of a small bus. A Galaxy-class ship is over 17,000 times larger. Do you really need this explaining to you?

It was a relatively small group of people who worked on building the Flyer, not the whole crew... and need I remind you, it was done MANUALLY without automation?
Also, Star Trek: Prodigy = Vehicle recplicator (made a shuttle in minutes - and VOY crew managed to repair multiple of their own damaged or broken shuttles too).

And yet... they never do that. Industrial replicators are incredibly rare and highly prized; there are only a handful per planet. We know the energy costs and computational requirements of replicators scale exponentially with the size and complexity of what is being replicated. And some materials cannot be replicated. Besides, if you require a single large casting, such as for a reactor pressure vessel or a Bussard collector cap, only being able to replicate it in sections will be of no use.

Crew and writer willful ignorance/stupidity/unwillingness to use the technology that's there aren't my problem. All I'm stating what the technology is capable of in-universe wise.

It was also NEVER explicitly stated that some materials cannot be replicated... just that there wasn't (at the time) enough energy to do so.

Let's do some sums.

Assuming it has the same density and is composed of much the same material as an Intrepid-class, the saucer of a Galaxy-class starship weighs just over 4 million tons. Replicating something like this, assuming perfect efficiency, would require something like 380 yottajoules of energy. That's about the same as the maximum explosive yield of about 1 billion photon torpedoes – or about the same amount of energy as our sun releases every second. Where would you store this? How would you channel it? How would you join the pieces of starship together again afterwards? And we haven't even got on to discussing the data storage requirements yet...

Let's look at it a different way:
Prefabrication.
You replicate sections of the ship (the size of a shuttlecraft - which were transported routinely - suggesting the pattern buffers on a regular starhip can actually handle something of that size and mass), transpose that onto a drydock which has a thicker upper section which can be filled with tranporter systems and pattern buffers to enhance the storage capacity to handle something say 2 or 4 times the size.

But, let's intetionally limit it to just 1 shuttle size/mass - establish a forcefield in the shape of the vessel you are making... then start replicating shuttle sized pieces and transporting them into place or just moving them with tractor beams as necessary and attach them with magentic seals - you can also use tractor beams to push them into place with fully automated workbees and or tractor beams from shuttles assigned to the drydock.

Problem solved... prefabrication with the help of replicators, transporters and tractor beams.

As for using the entire energy output of a star... Dyson Swarm (not sphere, but a swarm). They have the technology to build it but never actually done that because that would take of the writers to actually THINK.

We have molecular manufacturing, atomic scale manuf., 3d printing, nanoparticles and numerous other technologies that could be crammed into a 10m diameter satellite that could self replicate. Launch the thing and program it to take space trash as base raw materials for self-replication, then go onto Mercury and start disassembling it and constructing the needed bits of the Dyson Swarm itself along with more self-replication (in real life no less).

Exponential fully automated construction = low construction times. Trek has FAR superior technology than we do, so they could do the same thing quicker and more efficiently... but of course, they're not doing it as the writers would just say 'its too easy' (grow up and start creating better stories that fit the in-universe technology without dumbing stuff down).

 

[Tuskin38]

Crew and writer willful ignorance/stupidity/unwillingness to use the technology aren't my problem. All I'm stating what the technology is capable of in-universe wise.

You're over thinking it.

Star Trek is the wrong series if you want it to make sense.

 

[fireproof78]

You're over thinking it.

Star Trek is the wrong series if you want it to make sense.

Yes, but insulting the writers is way more fun!

 

[Deks]

You're over thinking it.

Star Trek is the wrong series if you want it to make sense.

No, I'm simply stating what the tech can be used for which can make the show more consistent and pave the way for better stories, but instead, its not being done because the writers seem to think 'it would make things too easy'.
And Trek isn't the wrong series if I want it to make sense because Trek CAN make sense... and it has no problem using science advisors when they think they need them and was going to portray a better tomorrow (which can be done with consistency and logic/reason).

In this day and age, using the internet to do some basic checkups and hire people more in tune with modern and Trek technology might be prudent to revise some things on the show.

Yes, but insulting the writers is way more fun!

There's such a thing as legitimate critisim for writer decision making. This is one of them. Perhaps I was being overly harsh in my choice of words, and for that I apologise, but the point stands.

 

[fireproof78]

There's such a thing as legitimate critisim for writer decision making

Of course there is. But basically saying the writers don't think is one aspect that I think crosses a line.

In this day and age, using the internet to do some basic checkups and hire people more in tune with modern and Trek technology might be prudent to revise some things on the show.

It would be nice if this was done. I would not expect it though.

 

[Deks]

Of course there is. But basically saying the writers don't think is one aspect that I think crosses a line.

Depends on where the line is and who defines it.
I was simply offering my personal opinion on the subject matter and think the writers wasted a really good opportunity to enrich Trek universe by expanding on the in-universe tech use more consistently and write stories that follow this - and you can create a ton of great stories.
For example, had the UFP actually thought of making Dyson Swarms, or finally using TW beaming or alternate sources of power, or even Android bodies... they could have in-depth explored how this might affect/change the dynamics inside UFP.
The development of Quantum Slipstream v2 could have taken SF to Andromeda galaxy in just over 4 hrs... could have built on the story from TOS and try and resolve the mistery of increased radiation in the galaxy and trying to stop it (perhaps with the use of its own made Dyson Swarms that would enable them to conduct a galaxy wide 'radiation cleaning' of sorts over time... and you can have even more stories here with potential new alien species, what happened with the Kelvan empire (could have challenged SF for example)... or something else.

Tons of potential for expansion and better story telling while at the same time demonstrating UFP societal and technological advancement (which could have also given the Borg a more legit reason to pursue and try to assimilate them).

That's what makes me think that some of the writers didn't really... think about things too much.

 

[Racefuel]

One thing to keep in mind is that Gene Roddenberry had intended that very few Galaxy class ships would be made since they were so complex and difficult to build. It is implied that the Enterprise-D took 5-6 years to build based on the fact she was reported to be under construction in the 2350's based on what we saw in the series.

So while yes, in a post scarcity world some things should be much faster to build and obtain..it seems massive ships like the Galaxy class are still difficult even in that future

 

[fireproof78]

That's what makes me think that some of the writers didn't really... think about things too much.

Well they think in the short term. This is not long term planning, because often times these things are done on a time crunch. We need to move from A to B with this specific story so how can it work. And the technology side not the interest. So, they are thinking, but not the way you would think.

Ultimately, because that's not the goal.

 

[DEWLine]

Terry says it's NCC-1744...

https://twitter.com/TerryMatalas/status/1646670853445402624?t=1gypjEINo-2FjVzHN0Bm6g&s=19

Possibly some kind of in-joke? If it was NCC-71744 it would work better.

I would agree with you on that one. We can work in NCC-1744 as one of the Galaxy-class Syracuse's ancestors.

 

[Racefuel]

71744 would be in the ballpark of Galaxy, Odyssey and Venture

 

[Macintosh]

It was a relatively small group of people who worked on building the Flyer, not the whole crew... and need I remind you, it was done MANUALLY without automation?

Also, Star Trek: Prodigy = Vehicle recplicator (made a shuttle in minutes - and VOY crew managed to repair multiple of their own damaged or broken shuttles too).

So either it was built manually or it was built with automation, but you can't argue both ways. The Protostar has a lot of unusual technology not available to Voyager or many other ships and it was also significantly more advanced. How do you know the Delta Flyer was built without automation?

Crew and writer willful ignorance/stupidity/unwillingness to use the technology that's there aren't my problem. All I'm stating what the technology is capable of in-universe wise.

This is like arguing that the only reason we don't build skyscrapers out of Lego is due to a lack of imagination.

It was also NEVER explicitly stated that some materials cannot be replicated... just that there wasn't (at the time) enough energy to do so.

It was explicitly stated that things couldn't be replicated certain times. The whole plot of DS9: "Empok Nor" comes about because Starfleet cannot replicate certain Cardassian components the station requires (these are the same people who you think should be able to replicate entire starships by the way, and Deep Space 9 has its own industrial replicator).

We know that in the 24th century replicators can't make dilithium (they still can't fabricate that in the 32nd century), latinum (which is why it's valuable), antimatter (because something that works at the molecular level can't do anything to the quantum state of a particle), certain materials used in Data's construction (cf. TNG: "The Most Toys"), some Borg technology (which is why it was a problem when Seven of Nine's cortical node failed and why Voyager had to steal a transwarp coil), or anything living and organic (which is why people can't replicate spare limbs and why the crew of Voyager was very worried about running out of bio-neural gel packs early on in their time in the delta quadrant).

Let's look at it a different way:
Prefabrication.
You replicate sections of the ship (the size of a shuttlecraft - which were transported routinely - suggesting the pattern buffers on a regular starhip can actually handle something of that size and mass), transpose that onto a drydock which has a thicker upper section which can be filled with tranporter systems and pattern buffers to enhance the storage capacity to handle something say 2 or 4 times the size.

Where do you get the power to operate transporters on that scale? How do you join these prefabricated sections together?

For that matter, when have we ever seen shuttlecraft ever be "transported routinely"? We see people get beamed to and from shuttles, sure. Scotty says in The Voyage Home that he's never beamed up four hundred tons before and isn't sure it'll work; assuming it has the same density as Voyager itself the Delta Flyer would weigh about four hundred tons, and a Danube-class runabout about six hundred.

But, let's intetionally limit it to just 1 shuttle size/mass - establish a forcefield in the shape of the vessel you are making...

How?

then start replicating shuttle sized pieces and transporting them into place or just moving them with tractor beams as necessary and attach them with magentic seals - you can also use tractor beams to push them into place with fully automated workbees and or tractor beams from shuttles assigned to the drydock.

Problem solved... prefabrication with the help of replicators, transporters and tractor beams.

So everything is a mass of replicated modules held together by magnets. Right. That sounds simple and straightforward and definitely very practical indeed

As for using the entire energy output of a star... Dyson Swarm (not sphere, but a swarm). They have the technology to build it but never actually done that because that would take of the writers to actually THINK.

A Dyson swarm is a Dyson sphere (and it's actually Freeman Dyson's original concept – he hated the Dyson shell type of sphere, per TNG: "Relics", even though it became the popular interpretation of his idea, because it was both wildly impractical and gravitationally unstable).

We have molecular manufacturing, atomic scale manuf., 3d printing, nanoparticles and numerous other technologies that could be crammed into a 10m diameter satellite that could self replicate. Launch the thing and program it to take space trash as base raw materials for self-replication, then go onto Mercury and start disassembling it and constructing the needed bits of the Dyson Swarm itself along with more self-replication (in real life no less).

Yes, I'm familiar with the concept of a von Neumann machine. We don't currently have molecular manufacturing or atomic scale manufacturing, certainly not at anything like the capabilities where we can "cram it into a 10m diameter satellite". Have you seen the size of a typical silicon chip foundry?

Exponential fully automated construction = low construction times. Trek has FAR superior technology than we do, so they could do the same thing quicker and more efficiently... but of course, they're not doing it as the writers would just say 'its too easy' (grow up and start creating better stories that fit the in-universe technology without dumbing stuff down).

Wow, I'm amazed you dedicate any time at all to this show you obviously hate that's written by morons

 

[Deks]

So either it was built manually or it was built with automation, but you can't argue both ways. The Protostar has a lot of unusual technology not available to Voyager or many other ships and it was also significantly more advanced. How do you know the Delta Flyer was built without automation?

They used replicators to make certain things for the Flyer but mostly worked round the clock to assemble the thing themselves.
There was no automation involved for the purpose of assembly (such as using drones).

As for the Protostar... you realize of course that the technology already existed and SF just prior to this point didn't think to incorporate it into ships?
It was likely that because of VOY's circumstances, and the fact that Chakotay was due to go to the DQ with the Protostar this tech was incorporated to prevent the same issues VOY had when it was stranded.

This is like arguing that the only reason we don't build skyscrapers out of Lego is due to a lack of imagination.

A LOT of people don't have the understanding of science and technology or the imagination (which is required btw) to make the needed connections and bring multiple technologies together and use them.

It was explicitly stated that things couldn't be replicated certain times. The whole plot of DS9: "Empok Nor" comes about because Starfleet cannot replicate certain Cardassian components the station requires (these are the same people who you think should be able to replicate entire starships by the way, and Deep Space 9 has its own industrial replicator).

Faulty reasoning. Replicators require detailed and accurate description of something to be able to replicate it, right?
As such, I don't think the Cardassians were willingly sharing any of their technology or mettalurgical developments with SF (which they hadn't), but this shouldn't have mattered because sensors should have been able to provide a detailed metallurgical analysis of the conduit for replication - but this is another inconsistency, because if you recall in Season 2, the computer was able to scan and recreate LARGE versions of that probability toy which had unknown technology - funny how this it could replicate, but apparently a conduit from a species in a local region of space, it couldn't.

It was an excuse to put them onto Terrok Nor and create a dramatic situation that would eventually pit Garak and O'Brien.
One thing that I never really understood is, WHY didn't SF send a contingent of SF officers to secure Empok Nor and have ANOTHER piece of Cardassian real estate in their hands.

We know that in the 24th century replicators can't make dilithium (they still can't fabricate that in the 32nd century), latinum (which is why it's valuable), antimatter (because something that works at the molecular level can't do anything to the quantum state of a particle), certain materials used in Data's construction (cf. TNG: "The Most Toys"), some Borg technology (which is why it was a problem when Seven of Nine's cortical node failed and why Voyager had to steal a transwarp coil), or anything living and organic (which is why people can't replicate spare limbs and why the crew of Voyager was very worried about running out of bio-neural gel packs early on in their time in the delta quadrant).

Synthetic dilithium anyone? Existed in TOS.
SF also found a way to recrystalize it.

As for antimatter- refresh my memory, but it was never stated HOW they're manufacturing antimatter... could be replicated in the 24th century if they have massive solar power receivers... it just wouldn't be efficient to do so on starships because they RUN on antimatter - so using antimatter to replicate antimatter wouldn't net you any extras... just same amount or less (depending on the efficiency levels).

Seven's cortical node couldn't be replicated because the technology was too complex for SF to replicate off the bat (Borg tech was portrayed as much more advanced and complex - so it probably employs alloys, materials or arrangement of matter in such a way that SF replication technology couldn't handle at the time - or just couldn't scan properly enough to get an accurate schematic so it could be replicated - however, there is a problem with this because Seven went through the transporter multiple times by this point, and the transporter was able to disassemble and reassemble her entirely and her implants with 0 problems on many occasions... which means, the replicators should have the ability to replicate it... but VOY writers (like others) played fast and loose with the technology and its capabilities.

As for Data being unreplicable, no, there was nothing stated that he can't be replicated.
The only thing in that episode regarding replication is this:
RIKER: If it's artificial, then we're talking about sabotage.
CRUSHER: With tricyanate? That's hard to believe. It's slow to assimilate, difficult to replicate, and hard to transport. There are a lot easier ways to poison a water supply. More effective ways too.
RIKER: Can you think of any reason a saboteur would choose tricyanate?

Difficult to replicate (but seems to be not impossible).

Where do you get the power to operate transporters on that scale? How do you join these prefabricated sections together?

You can magnetise them first and then seal them up with welding by employing those fancy drones SF has to use their laser or phaser welds (which both Discovery and the Titan used just weren't seen in use until Disco).

For that matter, when have we ever seen shuttlecraft ever be "transported routinely"? We see people get beamed to and from shuttles, sure. Scotty says in The Voyage Home that he's never beamed up four hundred tons before and isn't sure it'll work; assuming it has the same density as Voyager itself the Delta Flyer would weigh about four hundred tons, and a Danube-class runabout about six hundred.

Shuttles were transported on VOY from a dangerous location back to the ship on several occasions.
ST: Nemesis also had the ENT-E beam the Reman fighter with Picard and Data onboard.
VOY also managed to transport over 200 Klingons at one time from a D7 that was about to blow up to VOY.

How?

By the very fact that starships themselves can establish and hold massively large forcefields around themselves to preserve overall structural integrity during combat?
Or the fact they generate skin tight shields, or even bubble shields that can be expanded by multiple km?

Surely a drydock with dedicated systems can do the same. Doesn't have to project a forcefield of an entire ship for that matter like I suggested... just of a smaller section of a ship that is being replicated.

So everything is a mass of replicated modules held together by magnets. Right. That sounds simple and straightforward and definitely very practical indeed

Why wouldn't it be?
The USS Cerritos outer hull was shown it was held together entirely by magnetic seals (no welding involved).
The USS Enterprise-E detached a portion of its main deflector in First Contact movie by decoupling the magnetic seals (aka, employing a measure which disrupted the magnetic cohesion between the plates).

Also, magnetic seals exist in real life... while we hadn't been able to fully make a hull using only magnetic seals themselves, its been suggested its theoretically possible to achieve.

Also, on Trek, the technology was seen doing pretty ridiculous things... so, yeah, magnetically sealed hull seems like the real deal.

A Dyson swarm is a Dyson sphere (and it's actually Freeman Dyson's original concept – he hated the Dyson shell type of sphere, per TNG: "Relics", even though it became the popular interpretation of his idea, because it was both wildly impractical and gravitationally unstable).

And where did I mention a shell? The shell was a concept someone else suggested. Freeman Dyson himself proposed the idea of a swarm of collectors or mirrors surrounding the star... not a rigid structure.

Yes, I'm familiar with the concept of a von Neumann machine. We don't currently have molecular manufacturing or atomic scale manufacturing, certainly not at anything like the capabilities where we can "cram it into a 10m diameter satellite". Have you seen the size of a typical silicon chip foundry?

Actually we do... and after consulting with a few people, integrating these with a 3D printing technology, along with nanoparticles for assembly and adaptive metamateirals wouldn't be an issue.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150312142901.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180523104300.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/12/221208174255.htm

10 diameter sized satellite is large enough to hold all of these technologies along with guidance, propulsion, navigation, sensor, and basic drilling systems.
10 diameter btw would be with undeployed solar panels.

And don't tell me that if this was possible, it would already be done - this is a common misconception.

Most of the stuff we develop today is done separately. People in positions of power are NOT problem solvers (they are politicians), and to be honest, a lot of the individuals working in these fields aren't generalists (they are specialists) who would not have necessarily thought of connecting all of these technologies like this.

We had solutions to problems dating back decades and they hadn't been implemented... mainly because we live in a system that doesn't promote this kind of thinking. That of course doesn't mean similar things won't happen... its just that they will happen far less frequently and only for specific things that are deemed cost efficient and probably profitable.

Wow, I'm amazed you dedicate any time at all to this show you obviously hate that's written by morons

I'm almost amazed you would make such a statement.
I just occasionally come here and share my opinions on certain things.
I'm allowed to do that.

 

[NCC-73515]

Another one

 

[Macintosh]

They used replicators to make certain things for the Flyer but mostly worked round the clock to assemble the thing themselves.
There was no automation involved for the purpose of assembly (such as using drones).

Prove it.

A LOT of people don't have the understanding of science and technology or the imagination (which is required btw) to make the needed connections and bring multiple technologies together and use them.

Whereas apparently you do...

Faulty reasoning. Replicators require detailed and accurate description of something to be able to replicate it, right?
As such, I don't think the Cardassians were willingly sharing any of their technology or mettalurgical developments with SF (which they hadn't), but this shouldn't have mattered because sensors should have been able to provide a detailed metallurgical analysis of the conduit for replication - but this is another inconsistency, because if you recall in Season 2, the computer was able to scan and recreate LARGE versions of that probability toy which had unknown technology - funny how this it could replicate, but apparently a conduit from a species in a local region of space, it couldn't.

False equivalence. An unknown technology doesn't necessarily mean it would be hard to replicate. If lacking a suitable pattern were the only issue then run one through a transporter and get one.

It was an excuse to put them onto Terrok Nor and create a dramatic situation that would eventually pit Garak and O'Brien.
One thing that I never really understood is, WHY didn't SF send a contingent of SF officers to secure Empok Nor and have ANOTHER piece of Cardassian real estate in their hands.

Are you honestly asking why Starfleet wouldn't sneak a contingent of people into enemy territory to secure a stationary base and blaming it on a lack of imagination?

Synthetic dilithium anyone? Existed in TOS.

Where?

SF also found a way to recrystalize it.

Recrystalisation isn't replication.

As for antimatter- refresh my memory, but it was never stated HOW they're manufacturing antimatter... could be replicated in the 24th century if they have massive solar power receivers... it just wouldn't be efficient to do so on starships because they RUN on antimatter - so using antimatter to replicate antimatter wouldn't net you any extras... just same amount or less (depending on the efficiency levels).

How do you replicate antimatter with something that can only synthesise molecular patterns? You can push individual molecules around all you like but you'll never achieve CPT reversal that way. You're operating at completely the wrong scale.

Seven's cortical node couldn't be replicated because the technology was too complex for SF to replicate off the bat (Borg tech was portrayed as much more advanced and complex - so it probably employs alloys, materials or arrangement of matter in such a way that SF replication technology couldn't handle at the time

...Sooooo some material cannot be replicated? Gotcha.

- or just couldn't scan properly enough to get an accurate schematic so it could be replicated - however, there is a problem with this because Seven went through the transporter multiple times by this point, and the transporter was able to disassemble and reassemble her entirely and her implants with 0 problems on many occasions... which means, the replicators should have the ability to replicate it... but VOY writers (like others) played fast and loose with the technology and its capabilities.

I love how your view on this is absolutely correct but the writers of the show don't know what they're doing

As for Data being unreplicable, no, there was nothing stated that he can't be replicated.
The only thing in that episode regarding replication is this:
RIKER: If it's artificial, then we're talking about sabotage.
CRUSHER: With tricyanate? That's hard to believe. It's slow to assimilate, difficult to replicate, and hard to transport. There are a lot easier ways to poison a water supply. More effective ways too.
RIKER: Can you think of any reason a saboteur would choose tricyanate?


Difficult to replicate (but seems to be not impossible).

So why is Data considered irreplaceable then? Why does he manually build a positronic brain for Lal instead of just replicating his own?

Shuttles were transported on VOY from a dangerous location back to the ship on several occasions.
ST: Nemesis also had the ENT-E beam the Reman fighter with Picard and Data onboard.
VOY also managed to transport over 200 Klingons at one time from a D7 that was about to blow up to VOY.

None of this seems routine, and one would hope 200 Klingons would weigh less than 300 tons.

By the very fact that starships themselves can establish and hold massively large forcefields around themselves to preserve overall structural integrity during combat?
Or the fact they generate skin tight shields, or even bubble shields that can be expanded by multiple km?

But how do you precisely shape those forcefields? Planes and bubbles are fine. Fixed-distance surface projection, sure. Creating a virtual ship template out of fields alone? We've seen nothing close to that complex.

Surely a drydock with dedicated systems can do the same. Doesn't have to project a forcefield of an entire ship for that matter like I suggested... just of a smaller section of a ship that is being replicated.

Why wouldn't it be?
Its fictional technology that was seen doing ridiculous things. This wouldn't be out of the ordinary.

You... do know what magnets are, right?

And where did I mention a shell? The shell was a concept someone else suggested. Freeman Dyson himself proposed the idea of a swarm of collectors or mirrors surrounding the star... not a rigid structure.

"Dyson Swarm (not sphere, but a swarm)". Your patronising implication was clear.

Actually we do... and after consulting with a few people, integrating these with a 3D printing technology, along with nanoparticles for assembly and adaptive metamateirals wouldn't be an issue.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150312142901.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180523104300.htm
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/12/221208174255.htm

10 diameter sized satellite is large enough to hold all of these technologies along with guidance, propulsion, navigation, sensor, and basic drilling systems.
10 diameter btw would be with undeployed solar panels.

Those articles read like press releases rather than actual papers; looking into them more indicates they're more advanced chemical engineering concepts than genuine nanotechnology. The US Department of Energy still described atomic-scale manufacturing as "emerging" in a 2019 paper and conceded that it is not yet at a point where commercialisation is possible, and is certainly not at a point where a tiny "universal molecular assembler" could be put on a satellite.

I'm almost amazed you would make such a statement.
I just occasionally come here and share my opinions on certain things.
I'm allowed to do that.

Sure, and I'm equally as allowed to point out why they're nonsense. I'm also allowed to switch you to ignore since you're argumentative and patronising. Cheeribye.

 

[Ronin'sCreamyCandle]

Another one

Not joking around, is Will ok? He is looking gaunt and skinny. I don't know of his medical challenges but he looks ill to me.

 

[Tomalak]

I think that's some lens distortion. He looks fine.

 

[Deks]

Prove it.

Its in the =dialogue of the episode where they were making the flyer.

Whereas apparently you do...

You said it, not me.
There ARE people who are capable of imagining how you might be able to connect different technologies into one... and usually, they are called generalists.

Modern Trek writers do not seem to exhibit these qualities.

False equivalence. An unknown technology doesn't necessarily mean it would be hard to replicate. If lacking a suitable pattern were the only issue then run one through a transporter and get one.

And yet the device in question never went through a transporter that we know of.
Also, you basically proved my point that if you can transport something, it can usually be replicated.

However, the technology was portrayed in an inconsistent capacity (meaning, that its abilities were frequently ignored for the sake of drama).

Are you honestly asking why Starfleet wouldn't sneak a contingent of people into enemy territory to secure a stationary base and blaming it on a lack of imagination?

No, just wondering why didn't SF decide to be a bit more bold and get a foothold in enemy territory which could have potentially made their work during the Dominion War easier.
Empok Nor was abandoned by the Cardassians as it wasn't necessarily deemed of strategic value.
So, SF could have probably tried to appropriate and upgrade it covertly (after this latest incident of cardassian 'supersoldiers') and then use it to launch attacks from a seemingly 'strategically insignificant' location.

In war, there really should't be any 'strategically insignificant locations' because the moment you think that, they can probably use it against you.

Where?

Can't recall the episode in question, but they were able to make synthetic dilithium.

Recrystalisation isn't replication.

No, but it effectively regenerates the crystals and allows Trek spacefaring species to extend its life expectancy and use significantly... and the technology can also be used to create a Supernova type energy levels if Discovery is accurate (which is exactly what they did in Season 2).

Plus, dilithium was beamed at least twice in TOS... so to think it cannot be replicated is a bit of a stretch because it doesn't jive with the explanation behind how the transporters and replicators work.

And again, warp capable shuttles were beamed on several occasions (which had to have dilithium on board).

How do you replicate antimatter with something that can only synthesise molecular patterns? You can push individual molecules around all you like but you'll never achieve CPT reversal that way. You're operating at completely the wrong scale.

While it is accurate that antimatter operates on a smaller scale than most molecules, and that current (real life) molecular manufacturing techniques are primarily focused on the manipulation of molecules rather than individual particles, it is still theoretically possible to use nanotechnology and molecular machines to assemble individual particles such as positrons and antiprotons into larger structures of antimatter.

The concept of molecular patterns in Trek suggests a theoretical model of matter that includes information about the precise arrangement of individual atoms and particles, which could be used to create antimatter structures.

And if you want real life potential explanation:
It should be possible to use nanotechnology (nanoparticles, nanotubes, quantum dots and nanofibers) and molecular machines (molecular motors amd molecular switches - but there are others too) to manipulate individual particles and assemble them into larger structures, such as positrons and antiprotons, which are the building blocks of antimatter. For example, nanoparticles could be used as building blocks to assemble larger structures of antimatter particles, and molecular machines could potentially be used to manipulate individual particles and direct their assembly into specific configurations.

This is just basing what would be possible from real life technology... so, yes, within the scope of Trek, it would be possible to replicate antimatter with a sufficiently large power source available (such as the sun) in dedicated facilities in solar systems.
On starships in the field, different methods would have to be used if you want to avoid using antimatter to create antimatter because that would not be very efficient or practical (VOY inferred the use of Omicron particles which can be used to augment antimatter reserves).

...Sooooo some material cannot be replicated? Gotcha.

That was within the scope of the episode to generate drama.
If an object or substance can be successfully transported using the transporter, it should also be possible to replicate that object or substance using the replicator. This is because both technologies rely on the same fundamental principles of molecular or subatomic manipulation to achieve their goals.

I love how your view on this is absolutely correct but the writers of the show don't know what they're doing

No, I was providing information on what was stated in the episode as a reason and then provided another reason as to why its inconsistent with how the technology itself was described to work.

So why is Data considered irreplaceable then? Why does he manually build a positronic brain for Lal instead of just replicating his own?

Actually, in the episode in question, it was never stated that Data manually built the positronic brain for Lal.
The main difficulty with making a positronic brain was to keep it functioning as intended (in fact as it was explained in the show, Data, Lore and their mother were the only major successes Soong was able to make at the time after many failures) - this is what made Data 'unique' at the time.

None of this seems routine, and one would hope 200 Klingons would weigh less than 300 tons.

Ok, I'll give you that the use of the word 'routine' was maybe incorrect... but that doesn't negate the fact that starship transporters were able to beam a shuttle from one location to the next.

Also, according to some information online a shuttlecraft weighs about 3.38 metric tonnes... which converts to about 3380 kilograms (since a metric tonne is the same as 1 tonne).

Assuming the average wieght of a Klingon is mere 70 kilograms x 200 = 14000 kilograms.
But even if we assume that there were about 100 adults and 100 kids, that would still be over 7000 kilograms... which is well over a double in weight of a shuttlecraft.

So, VOY transporter was able to beam something that's more than twice the mass of a shuttlecraft... and significantly larger... so yes, 200 Klingons would basically SURPASS the size and mass of a shuttlecraft.

But how do you precisely shape those forcefields? Planes and bubbles are fine. Fixed-distance surface projection, sure. Creating a virtual ship template out of fields alone? We've seen nothing close to that complex.

SF does possess technology for field manipulation. Holograms do this all the time and they are basically a combination of forcefiels and light. VOY was also able to project actual holo ships in space.
So, precisely shaping forcefields is not an issue for them.

You... do know what magnets are, right?

Yes, and do you realize there are examples from real life of using magnets to connect two objects and then welding the joint to improve the seal?
One example is magnetic pulse welding, which is a process used to join two metallic components together without the need for heat or additional materials.
After the two components are joined by the magnetic pulse, a secondary process such as friction stir welding or ultrasonic welding can be used to create a seal along the joint.

Also, how was the USS Cerritos outer hull removed again? Magnetic seals were involed (no welding).
Similar example was seen in Star Trek: First Contact movie with the removal of the ship's main deflector.

So, it appears that ships hulls aren't welded really, but employ 100% magentic seals instead.

And there are instances in real life where we are using magnetic seals in aerospace... and there are considerations for using 100% magnetic seals to construct a hull of say of a shuttle or a space station that wouldn't involve welding of any kind in real life as well... so the idea is perfectly valid.

"Dyson Swarm (not sphere, but a swarm)". Your patronising implication was clear.

I did nothing of the kind. I simply wanted to be precise with the terminology in question so as to not being misunderstood because a lot of people mistake 'swarm' and 'sphere' as one and the same, when they are not.

Those articles read like press releases rather than actual papers; looking into them more indicates they're more advanced chemical engineering concepts than genuine nanotechnology. The US Department of Energy still described atomic-scale manufacturing as "emerging" in a 2019 paper and conceded that it is not yet at a point where commercialisation is possible, and is certainly not at a point where a tiny "universal molecular assembler" could be put on a satellite.

Atomic Layer Deposition and Scanning Tunneling Microscopy are in use.
Also, I never mentioned commercialised use... merely that the technology was invented and could be used.
Technology does not need to be commercialized to be used in aerospace, and experimental or relatively unproven technologies can be used in spacecraft or satellites which can be tested and then find their way down to commercialized uses.

Sure, and I'm equally as allowed to point out why they're nonsense. I'm also allowed to switch you to ignore since you're argumentative and patronising. Cheeribye.

Will be perfectly happy not to continue this discussion... but I was neither argumentative or patronising.
In fact, you seemed to have engaged in this and projected them onto me.