the thin-gay line

[SilentP]

I don't know about being gay but definetely a moron in my book...

Wouldn't sex with Seven-of-Nine be like, dangerous?

You'd get like nanoprobes up your fun-stick and then be Borgified and be her bitch.

I got a feeling that Seven would be on top and you'd be Mr. Bottoms, totally.............

ouch....................

No thanks.

ummm...okay. Where do I sign up?

Rob

I think you'll find a long line for that signing

But it could be more dangerous, especially if Seven hasn't got the hang of intimate physical contact (has been a while since I watched later Voyager, so I may be rusty on remember her 'progress').

 

[TheSeeker]

I always find it funny when people try to find the gayness in trek where it doesn't exist. I agree that it's a shame society and the studio weren't more open to having realistic gay characters but I think it is a bit ridiculous to read all this gayness into every little look and piece of dialogue in the show.

Just to be clear, I am not at all against there being gay characters, I just wish people would stop inventing them where they never existed.

 

[DevilEyes]

Garak being possibly gay had more to do with the way Robinson initially played him. He subsequently toned it down somewhat when he found out a lot of people were getting that vibe.

Robinson said he played Garak as omnisexual (pansexual), not as homosexual or heterosexual; but "people were having fits" over his scenes with Bashir, so he decided to tone it down.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Garak being possibly gay had more to do with the way Robinson initially played him. He subsequently toned it down somewhat when he found out a lot of people were getting that vibe.

Robinson said he played Garak as omnisexual (pansexual), not as homosexual or heterosexual; but "people were having fits" over his scenes with Bashir, so he decided to tone it down.

the problem is, he did it so well that I never bought his romance with Dukat's daughter.

Rob

 

[cardinal biggles]

Well, the writers seemed to start Geordi off as gay in S1, but they decided it would be funny if they just made him a failure with women instead.

So in other words, they downgraded him to a Trekkie?

 

[RobertScorpio]

Well, the writers seemed to start Geordi off as gay in S1, but they decided it would be funny if they just made him a failure with women instead.

So in other words, they downgraded him to a Trekkie?

God damit!!! You just made me FART in front of my co-workers after I started laughing at that!!! That was good!!! classic!!!

Rob

 

[DevilEyes]

Garak being possibly gay had more to do with the way Robinson initially played him. He subsequently toned it down somewhat when he found out a lot of people were getting that vibe.

Robinson said he played Garak as omnisexual (pansexual), not as homosexual or heterosexual; but "people were having fits" over his scenes with Bashir, so he decided to tone it down.

the problem is, he did it so well that I never bought his romance with Dukat's daughter.

Rob

Well, omnisexuality/pansexuality wouldn't stop him from having a romance with Ziyal, or anyone for that matter (by definition)... But I didn't buy it because she was too young and too innocent for someone like Garak, and he was old enough to be her father... he probably is the same age as her father, so it was all a bit weird and creepy. I prefer to think that it was just a crush on her part, it makes it all a little less creepy. Besides, Garak never even mentioned her after the episode in which she died or acted like her death affected him in any way.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Robinson said he played Garak as omnisexual (pansexual), not as homosexual or heterosexual; but "people were having fits" over his scenes with Bashir, so he decided to tone it down.

the problem is, he did it so well that I never bought his romance with Dukat's daughter.

Rob

Well, omnisexuality/pansexuality wouldn't stop him from having a romance with Ziyal, or anyone for that matter (by definition)... But I didn't buy it because she was too young and too innocent for someone like Garak, and he was old enough to be her father... he probably is the same age as her father, so it was all a bit weird and creepy. I prefer to think that it was just a crush on her part, it makes it all a little less creepy. Besides, Garak never even mentioned her after the episode in which she died or acted like her death affected him in any way.

Well..actually.. I didn't buy it because I "bought" Robbinson's way of playing Garak. I just assumed Garak was gay. In fact, I remember reading an article where Robbinson wished they had kept his sexuality undefined (and he didn't just mean omnisexuality). At least, thats what I got from the interview.

Rob

 

[barnaclelapse]

While I'm also not clear on what this person is talking about, I am bothered by the lack of alternative sexualities in the Trek universe. I have done some reading on this and I know there are many fans who would like to see the topic explored. I know I would.

Sean

Okay...lets try it this way.

Have there been characters on STAR TREK that were written in subtle ways, or even overt ones, that could have been considered bisexual or gay? Odo? Garak are just a couple characters that have been bantered about here before, just as an example.

Rob

I would imagine so. Someone else would probably know a whole hell of a lot more about this than I do, but I'd imagine there have been a few gay/lesbian writers/directors throughout the franchise. Some of them probably wrote for or developed certain characters who could be open to interpretation.

Odo never struck me as gay, but I also haven't seen an episode of DS9 in over a decade.

 

[DevilEyes]

While I'm also not clear on what this person is talking about, I am bothered by the lack of alternative sexualities in the Trek universe. I have done some reading on this and I know there are many fans who would like to see the topic explored. I know I would.

Sean

Okay...lets try it this way.

Have there been characters on STAR TREK that were written in subtle ways, or even overt ones, that could have been considered bisexual or gay? Odo? Garak are just a couple characters that have been bantered about here before, just as an example.

Rob

I would imagine so. Someone else would probably know a whole hell of a lot more about this than I do, but I'd imagine there have been a few gay/lesbian writers/directors throughout the franchise. Some of them probably wrote for or developed certain characters who could be open to interpretation.

Odo never struck me as gay, but I also haven't seen an episode of DS9 in over a decade.

I have no clue why anyone would see Odo as gay. But you might argue that he - and every other Changeling - is sexless (I don't mean asexual, I mean, they are not biologically male or female), even though those we've seen have a gender, i.e. they identify as male or female and choose to shapeshift accordingly when they are in humanoid form. It is funny that the series never addressed it. They even had a character who was known as "Female Changeling". But, shouldn't both she and Odo be able to be either male or female, if they chose so?

 

[RobertScorpio]

Okay...lets try it this way.

Have there been characters on STAR TREK that were written in subtle ways, or even overt ones, that could have been considered bisexual or gay? Odo? Garak are just a couple characters that have been bantered about here before, just as an example.

Rob

I would imagine so. Someone else would probably know a whole hell of a lot more about this than I do, but I'd imagine there have been a few gay/lesbian writers/directors throughout the franchise. Some of them probably wrote for or developed certain characters who could be open to interpretation.

Odo never struck me as gay, but I also haven't seen an episode of DS9 in over a decade.

I have no clue why anyone would see Odo as gay. But you might argue that he - and every other Changeling - is sexless (I don't mean asexual, I mean, they are not biologically male or female), even though those we've seen have a gender, i.e. they identify as male or female and choose to shapeshift accordingly when they are in humanoid form. It is funny that the series never addressed it. They even had a character who was known as "Female Changeling". But, shouldn't both she and Odo be able to be either male or female, if they chose so?

Sure..but this is star trek we are talking about. Are they just aliens on a TV show? Or is STAR TREK making a statement that we, as humans, should be able to chose another sex if we are not happy with the one we are born with. But more importantly, Star Trek, I think, is trying to make transgenders more 'acceptable' to the general population through characters like The Changelings...

yeah..I know..that was pretty deep for me. I have to try sometimes!!!

Rob

 

[Major Chord]

Couldn't it be possible that by the time of the founding of the Federation, bi-sexuality was the norm? Who you favored, may it be men or women, wouldn't lead people to classify you as "gay" or "straight...because being attracted top both sexes (or at least having the opportunity to explore, and choose your preference, instead of being raised to think, as is the norm now, that being "straight" is the way things "should" be), is normal. I'd imagine that there are some, like O'Brian, who never considered same sex relationships, because he just wasn't attracted to the opposite sex, but on the whole, I could imagine it being acceptable for a person to have dated members of both sexes, even if they settle down with one gender in particular. Now, I'm not saying that every character is bi-sexual, but the number of people who are is large enough that being bi is as common in that time period as having a piercing or tatoo is today.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

\I think of KIRK/JANET LESTER. Some of those scenes between Kirk (Janet Lester) and her friend, cant remember his name, are quite interesting when looking back at them, especially coming out of the late 60s.

Agreed. Looking back on it, Shatner played the part almost too well.

Shatner was over the top and ridiculous. Lester was the one I found interesting - even if it was a wretched episode, the actress was very convincing as "Kirk." And Spock seemed almost too eager to adapt himself to the reality of Kirk's new identity. It's a pretty funny ep to watch for stuff like that.

But literally gay characters are pretty scarce. The writers never had the guts to really pull the trigger on Garak (that had to wait for novels). Having female characters in the MU be bisexual doesn't count, considering the utter gutlessness of that approach. Let's have some male characters in the MU be slobbering all over each other. Even better, how about having gay characters who aren't in the "evil" universe. Relegating gay characters only to the MU sends a really nasty message.

 

[RobertScorpio]

\I think of KIRK/JANET LESTER. Some of those scenes between Kirk (Janet Lester) and her friend, cant remember his name, are quite interesting when looking back at them, especially coming out of the late 60s.

Agreed. Looking back on it, Shatner played the part almost too well.

Shatner was over the top and ridiculous. Lester was the one I found interesting - even if it was a wretched episode, the actress was very convincing as "Kirk." And Spock seemed almost too eager to adapt himself to the reality of Kirk's new identity. It's a pretty funny ep to watch for stuff like that.

But literally gay characters are pretty scarce. The writers never had the guts to really pull the trigger on Garak (that had to wait for novels). Having female characters in the MU be bisexual doesn't count, considering the utter gutlessness of that approach. Let's have some male characters in the MU be slobbering all over each other. Even better, how about having gay characters who aren't in the "evil" universe. Relegating gay characters only to the MU sends a really nasty message.

...and S/M. They make it seem that only those in the MU use whips and chains in such a manner, when I can say right here and now; they are wrong!

Rob

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Associating gayness with S&M is also pretty stupid. There's no such correllation in real life. S&M is also a straight phenomenon.

How about an entire gay race, the J'naii: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/J'naii

The J’naii weren’t gay, they were genderless.

I’ve always thought it would have been cool to encounter a truly “gay race.” Imagine the Enterprise encounters a world where the the people are gay. The reproduce in laboratories. The family unit, which is a bedrock of their society, consists either of one or more boys being raised by two fathers who teach the boys how to be men, or one or more girls being raised by two mothers who teach the girls how to be women.

But here’s the deal: Only 90% of their people are really gay. 10% are straight. The straights are denounced by the dominant religion on the planet, which teaches that heterosexual sex is animalistic, vile, and sinful, while homosexual bonding is spiritual and holy. The straights are pressured by the majority to “change their lifestyles,” give up their sinful ways, and live as gays. Straights are scorned and often targeted for violence. They do not get many of the basic legal rights that gays take for granted. “Reparative therapy” is offered to “cure” them. And so on.

Just to give viewers a brief opportunity to imagine what it would be like being on the other side, you know?

Wow, that sounds like just the kind of sledgehammer moralizing that I loathe in Trek.

Nah, the only way to portray gays properly is to make them No Big Deal, about as interesting as a plate of warmed-over hasparat.

Andrew Robinson actually said he was playing him as "omnisexual".

How ironic that he seemed to be living like a monk. I guess Bashir just broke his heart, huh? And if he were interested in women, he sure never showed it much - something wrong with Ziyal? Cute, young, willing - and it's a great way to piss off her dad! Nah, that proved Garak was 100% gay.

 

[WillsBabe]

even if it was a wretched episode, the actress was very convincing as "Kirk." And Spock seemed almost too eager to adapt himself to the reality of Kirk's new identity. It's a pretty funny ep to watch for stuff like that.

I absolutely agree. There's another thread here in Gen Trek, asking if you "got" Trek when you first watched it as a kid. When I saw this episode as an adult, I was amazed by some of the stuff in it.

 

[Captrek]

Besides, Garak never even mentioned her after the episode in which she died or acted like her death affected him in any way.

What did you expect? Ziyal’s death wasn’t exactly the first time Garak lost somebody he cared about. Garak had lost everyone and everything he ever had, and he learned to cope without wearing a “woe is me” countenance or lamenting all that was gone. Eventually he even learned to do it without a cranial implant mucking with his endorphins. It seems to me he dealt with Ziyal’s death the same way he dealt with everything else he had lost.

 

[FormerLurker]

How about an entire gay race, the J'naii: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/J'naii

The J’naii weren’t gay, they were genderless.

I’ve always thought it would have been cool to encounter a truly “gay race.” Imagine the Enterprise encounters a world where the the people are gay. The reproduce in laboratories. The family unit, which is a bedrock of their society, consists either of one or more boys being raised by two fathers who teach the boys how to be men, or one or more girls being raised by two mothers who teach the girls how to be women.

But here’s the deal: Only 90% of their people are really gay. 10% are straight. The straights are denounced by the dominant religion on the planet, which teaches that heterosexual sex is animalistic, vile, and sinful, while homosexual bonding is spiritual and holy. The straights are pressured by the majority to “change their lifestyles,” give up their sinful ways, and live as gays. Straights are scorned and often targeted for violence. They do not get many of the basic legal rights that gays take for granted. “Reparative therapy” is offered to “cure” them. And so on.

Just to give viewers a brief opportunity to imagine what it would be like being on the other side, you know?

Have you watch the episode? The J'naii were an homosexual society that evolved into a genderless one over time given the lack of need of gender. 10% of the population still identify themselves as a specific gender which is define as vile and sinful and endup in "reprogramming".

I watched the episode. And later had a long conversation with several co-workers who are both Trek fans, and gay. Their take on the episode is that it is a commentary on how gays are treated in most cultures in the world today, a point of view not only shared by the writers of the episode, but one they were deliberately commenting on. Yes, that's right, the writers of the episode stated in interviews that the point was to comment on how gays are treated in today's world. A little heavy-handed, but something Star Trek has been doing since the very beginning.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Star Trek's always been heavy handed.

The majority of TV viewers are dense. And dense people aren't going to crack open if you scrape them with a scapel. You gotta use a sledgehammer.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Star Trek's always been heavy handed.

The majority of TV viewers are dense. And dense people aren't going to crack open if you scrape them with a scapel. You gotta use a sledgehammer.

Perhaps. But if you are too heavy handed then your show will see dated at times. Thats why I think TNG-SEASON 1 is as bad as it is. The heavy-handed episodes just dont age well in that season..

Rob