The Terminator and T2 after all these years

[JarodRussell]

T2 suffers a little in the sense that the special effects that wowed us all those years ago aren't so special anymore. For me Robert Patrick still makes the film, his portrayal of the T1000 just perfect

If you ask me, the T-1000 still looks much better than the Terminatrix or the Silver Surfer.

 

[saturn5]

T2 suffers a little in the sense that the special effects that wowed us all those years ago aren't so special anymore. For me Robert Patrick still makes the film, his portrayal of the T1000 just perfect

If you ask me, the T-1000 still looks much better than the Terminatrix or the Silver Surfer.

I agree, almost wholly down to Robert Patricks performance, he looks like he could be a Michael Biehn style hero but he moves just that little too perfectly. Problem Terminator 3 had was that it couldn't really top the T1000, lovely as the Terminatrix was

 

[sikkbones]

what did you guys think of the possibilty of human/terminator hybrids as shown in Salvation?

 

[Greylock Crescent]

They're called Cylons.

 

[Pilot Ace]

I think your interpretaion of both movies is too literal. Yes, to a certain extent, they're both about technology run amok. But at their heart, it seems to me that they're both really about the duality of man, and the horrors (both real and potential) of the 20th century.

One of the central features of every horror movie is the return of the repressed. In the case of the Terminator movies, what has been repressed is the memory of totalitarianism and genocide, and the fear of nuclear war. The memory of the ways in which human beings, and specifically men, have used technology to enslave and murder their fellow human beings, and to ruin and destroy an entire century of progress. The memory of the ways in which men willingly became heartless, unfeeling, inhuman instruments of tyranny, death, and destruction. And the knowledge that, somewhere behind the scenes, under the surface, and beneath the skin of contemporary society, the potential for even greater mass murder and mass destruction still exists, in the form of nuclear weapons.

In both movies, this repressed memory and repressed fear returns in the form of the Terminators. On the outside, the Terminator in the first movie resembles the Heroic-Realist statues of Nazi Germany, with its bulging muscles and Teutonic sneer. But on the inside, it's a soulless, heartless machine with no personality or conscience--a robotic genocidaire.

The T-1000, by contrast, is not even superficially human: it is metal, through and through. It's as physically unthreatening as a USAF airman working in a nuclear-missile silo, launch key at the ready. Its ability to change form at will suggests, at least to me, that the totalitarian, genocidal impulse that was formerly concentrated in places like the Nazi death camps has metastasized throughout our society. When given the chance, it reverts to type, wearing a cop uniform and motorcycle boots which recall the Nazi SS.

These machines are not Others at all. They are Us. Both of them represent certain ideals of masculinity which men willingly embraced in the previous century, and their violence is no more brutal or indiscriminate than that which these men have inflicted on their fellow human beings. On Judgment Day, Skynet even uses our own weapons to destroy us.

But, thankfully, not all men have embraced this ideal. If the Terminators represent men's evil and destructive impulses, then Kyle Reese represents their good and creative impulses. Reese sacrifices his own life to save Sarah, and warn her about the future. And in the process, he joins with her to bring new life and hope into the world. Doomsday is still coming, but humanity will survive, and life will go on.

The situation in T2 is more complex: in place of the first movie's black-and-white morality, we have shades of grey.
In this sense, both movies are products of their time. The Terminator was released in 1984, when the nuclear arms race was at its height. T2, by contrast, was released in 1991, after communism had fallen, and the threat of nuclear annihilation had receded.

On the one hand, we see that Sarah has drawn the wrong conclusions from her experiences in the first movie: that the only way to fight the machines is to become as hard, and ruthless, and unfeeling as the machines. She has become corrupted by the same robotism that almost destroyed her. And when she learns Dyson's identity, she becomes a Terminator herself, buckling on a hyper-masculine shell of combat gear as a symbol of her resolve. But in the end, Sarah's humanity reasserts itself: unlike the psychopathic Terminators, she cannot bring herself to shoot a defenceless human being in cold blood. The end does not justify the means.

While Sarah is trying, unsuccessfully, to dehumanize herself, the 'good' Terminator is gradually being humanized by his relationship with John. This character, to me, represents the War Machine which was built up to fight first the Second World War, then the Cold War--a machine which, in the post-Cold War environment of T2, has now outlived its usefulness. Once it has successfully defended John and Sarah against the T-1000, it realizes that its continued existence would only endanger the world. It too must be destroyed--melted down, like an old sword, to be re-forged into a plowshare.

That's a terrific analysis. Love it.

 

[sikkbones]

i was thinking of the time travel in the saga, and ive come to a point that i cant quite get my head around, so i was hoping a few of you on here could help.

Basically my impediment is this;

Say the terminator actually killed Sarah in T1 that would mean in the future John would never have been alive for the terminator to be sent back.....

see the problem?

same applies for T2 if John was killed then the TX would never have been sent back in T3 which then means T3 nor Salvation would have ever happened?

Another thing that gets me going say Sarah survives in T1 (bare with me) but Kyle was killed before the conception of John.....would it be possible for John to ever be concieved to a different father of the same the same time rather than someone to be sent back....

or if Kyle had lived then wouldnt he meet his future self and tell himself all the wrongs he will make when he goes back so he knows how to change his approach which would then change himself for when he goes back intime in the innevetable hoop that would be created.

 

[ALF]

Terminator (1) was on the other night. I caught it on PVR and watched it later.
I have to say... it blew me the fuck away. I cannot believe how well it has stood up and how much I enjoyed it.

As the first poster said, there was the perfect amount of Kyle in the future to shape his character.

Gonna score it on DVD next chance I get.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I think your interpretaion of both movies is too literal. Yes, to a certain extent, they're both about technology run amok. But at their heart, it seems to me that they're both really about the duality of man, and the horrors (both real and potential) of the 20th century.

One of the central features of every horror movie is the return of the repressed. In the case of the Terminator movies, what has been repressed is the memory of totalitarianism and genocide, and the fear of nuclear war. The memory of the ways in which human beings, and specifically men, have used technology to enslave and murder their fellow human beings, and to ruin and destroy an entire century of progress. The memory of the ways in which men willingly became heartless, unfeeling, inhuman instruments of tyranny, death, and destruction. And the knowledge that, somewhere behind the scenes, under the surface, and beneath the skin of contemporary society, the potential for even greater mass murder and mass destruction still exists, in the form of nuclear weapons.

In both movies, this repressed memory and repressed fear returns in the form of the Terminators. On the outside, the Terminator in the first movie resembles the Heroic-Realist statues of Nazi Germany, with its bulging muscles and Teutonic sneer. But on the inside, it's a soulless, heartless machine with no personality or conscience--a robotic genocidaire.

The T-1000, by contrast, is not even superficially human: it is metal, through and through. It's as physically unthreatening as a USAF airman working in a nuclear-missile silo, launch key at the ready. Its ability to change form at will suggests, at least to me, that the totalitarian, genocidal impulse that was formerly concentrated in places like the Nazi death camps has metastasized throughout our society. When given the chance, it reverts to type, wearing a cop uniform and motorcycle boots which recall the Nazi SS.

These machines are not Others at all. They are Us. Both of them represent certain ideals of masculinity which men willingly embraced in the previous century, and their violence is no more brutal or indiscriminate than that which these men have inflicted on their fellow human beings. On Judgment Day, Skynet even uses our own weapons to destroy us.

But, thankfully, not all men have embraced this ideal. If the Terminators represent men's evil and destructive impulses, then Kyle Reese represents their good and creative impulses. Reese sacrifices his own life to save Sarah, and warn her about the future. And in the process, he joins with her to bring new life and hope into the world. Doomsday is still coming, but humanity will survive, and life will go on.

The situation in T2 is more complex: in place of the first movie's black-and-white morality, we have shades of grey.
In this sense, both movies are products of their time. The Terminator was released in 1984, when the nuclear arms race was at its height. T2, by contrast, was released in 1991, after communism had fallen, and the threat of nuclear annihilation had receded.

On the one hand, we see that Sarah has drawn the wrong conclusions from her experiences in the first movie: that the only way to fight the machines is to become as hard, and ruthless, and unfeeling as the machines. She has become corrupted by the same robotism that almost destroyed her. And when she learns Dyson's identity, she becomes a Terminator herself, buckling on a hyper-masculine shell of combat gear as a symbol of her resolve. But in the end, Sarah's humanity reasserts itself: unlike the psychopathic Terminators, she cannot bring herself to shoot a defenceless human being in cold blood. The end does not justify the means.

While Sarah is trying, unsuccessfully, to dehumanize herself, the 'good' Terminator is gradually being humanized by his relationship with John. This character, to me, represents the War Machine which was built up to fight first the Second World War, then the Cold War--a machine which, in the post-Cold War environment of T2, has now outlived its usefulness. Once it has successfully defended John and Sarah against the T-1000, it realizes that its continued existence would only endanger the world. It too must be destroyed--melted down, like an old sword, to be re-forged into a plowshare.

That's a terrific analysis. Love it.

Seconded. That was masterful. Worthy of publishing.

 

[RAMA]

T2 is bloated and overrated, I still think the original is a better movie overall. The pacing is tighter, its more visceral with far less filler. Schwarzenegger was coming off the Conan movies and was at his physical peak for movies. There was something about him being the bad guy that was a lot more frightening than the skinny liquid guy. I also think the original set the pattern for pulse-pounding music which came to dominate a lot of SF and regular action movies that followed afterward. Needless to say, a lot of bodybuilders use the theme music from the original for their posing routines.

RAMA

 

[WillsBabe]

Thanks to everyone who posted in the thread. I enjoyed reading your points of view, and the discussions that followed. On consideration, I appreciate The Terminator more than T2. I like its neat, compact story, the introduction and execution of the characters. After having said that, I like T2, too, although I struggle with some of the humour and humanising. I won't be watching the third film, which I remember to be poor, although that's all I seem to remember about it. I did watch Salvation recently, and was left feeling more meh than anything.

Now I'm off to re-watch TSCC. Although they really could have cast a better Kyle Reese, in my opinion...

 

[RandyS]

Thanks to everyone who posted in the thread. I enjoyed reading your points of view, and the discussions that followed. On consideration, I appreciate The Terminator more than T2. I like its neat, compact story, the introduction and execution of the characters. After having said that, I like T2, too, although I struggle with some of the humour and humanising. I won't be watching the third film, which I remember to be poor, although that's all I seem to remember about it. I did watch Salvation recently, and was left feeling more meh than anything.

Now I'm off to re-watch TSCC. Although they really could have cast a better Kyle Reese, in my opinion...

I didn't mind him so much as I did the annoying next door neighbor, you know, that blond woman whose name I can't remember, and don't care to anyway. Between her and the equally annoying redheaded terminator woman, AND her annoying kid, it's easy to see why the show was canceled. Those three all by themselves must have annoyed the hell out of viewers other than me. Oh well, at least we got Jessie out of it. That was the one female addition I actually liked.

 

[sikkbones]

the scene we should have gotten on the tv show....

http://video.adultswim.com/robot-ch...yer_robot-chicken_the-sarah-connor-chronicles

 

[RAMA]

Thanks to everyone who posted in the thread. I enjoyed reading your points of view, and the discussions that followed. On consideration, I appreciate The Terminator more than T2. I like its neat, compact story, the introduction and execution of the characters. After having said that, I like T2, too, although I struggle with some of the humour and humanising. I won't be watching the third film, which I remember to be poor, although that's all I seem to remember about it. I did watch Salvation recently, and was left feeling more meh than anything.

Now I'm off to re-watch TSCC. Although they really could have cast a better Kyle Reese, in my opinion...

I actually prefer T3 over T2...there's a more complicated story and the last 30 minutes are way "cooler" as the stakes get higher and higher. I also think the T-X makes more sense as a technology than the the T-1000.

Interestingly, the public view is the movie did not do well, but it made $433 million worldwide and also had a 70% positive rotten tomatoes rating when it came out.

RAMA

 

[saturn5]

Thanks to everyone who posted in the thread. I enjoyed reading your points of view, and the discussions that followed. On consideration, I appreciate The Terminator more than T2. I like its neat, compact story, the introduction and execution of the characters. After having said that, I like T2, too, although I struggle with some of the humour and humanising. I won't be watching the third film, which I remember to be poor, although that's all I seem to remember about it. I did watch Salvation recently, and was left feeling more meh than anything.

Now I'm off to re-watch TSCC. Although they really could have cast a better Kyle Reese, in my opinion...

Yeah, he's too chubby, you expect a guy who is lean and wiry like a combat veteran

 

[WillsBabe]

Now I'm off to re-watch TSCC. Although they really could have cast a better Kyle Reese, in my opinion...

Yeah, he's too chubby, you expect a guy who is lean and wiry like a combat veteran

I wondering if you're thinking about Derek? I like Derek. I just thought the guy they cast as Kyle in The Good Wound was too wishy washy (and not nearly handsome enough!) for me. Although it was nice that they paid attention to the age difference.

I actually prefer T3 over T2...there's a more complicated story and the last 30 minutes are way "cooler" as the stakes get higher and higher. I also think the T-X makes more sense as a technology than the the T-1000.

Interestingly, the public view is the movie did not do well, but it made $433 million worldwide and also had a 70% positive rotten tomatoes rating when it came out.

RAMA

Reading this thread has made me think about reconsidering watching T3. I remember really disliking it, and that's made me leery of seeing it again because I don't want it to take the tarnish off the good feelings I'm having about the T films at the moment. On the other hand, comments like yours make me think again. Which is good.

 

[Harvey]

THE TERMINATOR played in 35mm at the Egyptian tonight, and my roommate got me out of the apartment for once. It's still a very slick, well-made sf action thriller...but some of the effects (especially the one blue screen shot they attempted near the end) don't hold up that well.

I haven't seen the second film in ages. I wonder how it compares.

 

[Starkers]

Bit late to the party but still...

Terminator will always be one of my favourite films. I think its one of those rare beasts that's near flawless, which is amazing given its budget. Feels somewhat daft to say it, but I'd still count Terminator as one of the most romantic films ever made. The whole notion of him falling in love with the photograph wondering what she was thinking about and then us discovering she was thinking about him....one of the most perfect moments in film for me.

Arnie is great, Biehn if great, Hamilton is slightly annoying but she's supposed to be--and who doesn't wish Winfield and Henrikson had got their own spin off!

The film really didn't need a sequel...but we got T2, and in very different ways its a good film; enjoyable, exciting, action packed, funny, poignient...but also a bit too long, and a bit more sledge hammer in its pronouncements than the first film had been. Hamilton is kinda unlikeable again (ironically for the opposite reason) and John isn't that great. There's also a great swathe of the film in the middle where the T-1000 dissapears, would have been nice to see him doing something, even if it was just hanging around various Cyberdyne buildings! It's still a hugely enjoyable film though, and you can't compare them because the first film's an 18 cert low budget sci-fi horror film and the second's a 15 certificate blockbuster.

T3 is basically a bit of a spoof for much of its running time. It isn't bad, but the whole Arnie taking the stripper's clothes reminds me of the gag spoof Terminator film me and friends talked about at Uni, which would have seen the Terminator have to take the outfit of a train spotter. It's ok action wise, Stahl and Danes are good, but the female Terminator adds nothing to the mix. That said the last portion of the movie feels like a different film entirely, its a fantastic unexpected climax and really deserved to be in a better film.

I love the Sarah Connor chronicles, great cast, nice set up...let down only by the American need to have 20+ episodes a season neccesitating too much filler; not to mention a big buget new Terminator film on the horizon. Such a crying shame it was canned.

Especially when T4 was such a lousy film. Seriously, I don't think I've ever been so bored with a film that featured so many explosions!! The story is all over the place and the only things that make it at all worthwhile are Worthington, Chekov, and the Arnie cameo. I like Bale a lot, but he's terrible in this film.

Anyway, in order for me it goes:

1. Terminator
2. T2
3. TSCC
4. T3
5. T4

 

[WillsBabe]

Bit late to the party but still...

You're always wlecome to the party. Nice write up, by the way.

 

[Davros]

After all these years, I still like The Terminator but hate T2.

 

[saturn5]

Now I'm off to re-watch TSCC. Although they really could have cast a better Kyle Reese, in my opinion...

Yeah, he's too chubby, you expect a guy who is lean and wiry like a combat veteran

I wondering if you're thinking about Derek? I like Derek. I just thought the guy they cast as Kyle in The Good Wound was too wishy washy (and not nearly handsome enough!) for me. Although it was nice that they paid attention to the age difference.

I actually prefer T3 over T2...there's a more complicated story and the last 30 minutes are way "cooler" as the stakes get higher and higher. I also think the T-X makes more sense as a technology than the the T-1000.

Interestingly, the public view is the movie did not do well, but it made $433 million worldwide and also had a 70% positive rotten tomatoes rating when it came out.

RAMA

Reading this thread has made me think about reconsidering watching T3. I remember really disliking it, and that's made me leery of seeing it again because I don't want it to take the tarnish off the good feelings I'm having about the T films at the moment. On the other hand, comments like yours make me think again. Which is good.

No, I was thinking of the guy from The Good Wound. Not nearly as handsome as Biehn