The Nostromo has the better design though IMO
Okona would've been interesting, but Rios was so funny with his holograms that I'm glad they used him.
The status of the Federation in 2399
- Thread starter Charles Phipps
- Start date
That's great, if I was living in America I might feel the same, but the repeated interjections of REAL WORLD politics do not belong here. You have been asked several times now not to do that and told where you could discuss them on the board. @Sci We share a LOT of the same Trek opinions and I enjoy hearing your opinions but please keep the hot topics about modern society where they belong. If you want to talk about the Romulan abuse of the XB's fine. Mods are only enforcing the established rules. There was nothing "heavy handed" about @The Old Mixer asking you to follow the rules.
G
Gonzo
Guest
I know some think that the Dominion would have let up at some point and the virus was not necessary but I really don't think the Founders would have stopped for anything less than to save their own skin, they don't care about collateral damage and will just keep building ships and Jem'hadar unless stopped.
Ordinarily the Jem'Hadar and Vorta are there to act as meat shields but the virus bypassed them and used their greatest strength (The Great Link) against them to spread the virus.
It was Check Mate in no uncertain terms.
While I agree some of the Jem'Hadar would have gone nuts, other Jem'Hadar would have started to wonder if the Founders were really gods after all if they can be killed so easily.
The Alpha/Beta allies had no viable way to actually strike directly at the Great Link except for a wholesale invasion of the Gamma Quadrant and that was a non starter, the best the allies could have hoped for would be to kick the Dominion out of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants but to do that they would have had to invade Cardassia itself, which could have taken years/decades to accomplish assuming that they could completely cut off the Dominion supply lines.
To limit the loss of life on both sides and shorten the war the virus really was the only way, S31 just realised this much earlier than anyone else.
I have no problem with Bashir/Odo saving them though, there was no need to actually wipe the Founders out, just make them understand that they are not as untouchable as they thought they were and also show the Founders that they were wrong about Solids.
It also has benefits including closer political ties between the main Alpha/Beta powers.
Ordinarily the Jem'Hadar and Vorta are there to act as meat shields but the virus bypassed them and used their greatest strength (The Great Link) against them to spread the virus.
It was Check Mate in no uncertain terms.
While I agree some of the Jem'Hadar would have gone nuts, other Jem'Hadar would have started to wonder if the Founders were really gods after all if they can be killed so easily.
The Alpha/Beta allies had no viable way to actually strike directly at the Great Link except for a wholesale invasion of the Gamma Quadrant and that was a non starter, the best the allies could have hoped for would be to kick the Dominion out of the Alpha/Beta Quadrants but to do that they would have had to invade Cardassia itself, which could have taken years/decades to accomplish assuming that they could completely cut off the Dominion supply lines.
To limit the loss of life on both sides and shorten the war the virus really was the only way, S31 just realised this much earlier than anyone else.
I have no problem with Bashir/Odo saving them though, there was no need to actually wipe the Founders out, just make them understand that they are not as untouchable as they thought they were and also show the Founders that they were wrong about Solids.
It also has benefits including closer political ties between the main Alpha/Beta powers.
That is a very good argument.
I *THINK* however, it was meant to be more like DISCO's finale, though.
"Genocide is wrong! Let us show, instead, we wouldn't do that! Then we shall make peace!"
I *THINK* however, it was meant to be more like DISCO's finale, though.
"Genocide is wrong! Let us show, instead, we wouldn't do that! Then we shall make peace!"
But if the Founders didn't admit defeat at Cardassian, then the virus (i think) would have been allow to kill off the Founders. I mean I don't think the Federation would have folded and allowed the cure to be sent to all the Founders, if the one Founder refused to surrender after being cured.
The cure would have stopped with her.
The cure would have stopped with her.
Yes, that's the central problem because it is a perfectly valid pragmatic choice in wartime. It's also a bit of warped morality because the Founders are not a typical race but a hive mind so that killing them is not "killing everyone in Germany" but "killing the Nazi High Command."
Odo is the youngest member of their race that rejoins them so there's no children dying on Gallifrey if I may use another example of sci-fi genocide.
But the writers want to treat the threat as pure evil.
Almost as if the Changelings are established as being a collective mind that heads an oppressive totalitarian government.
Look how different the US is from Europe culturally despite its origin as an European colony. Imagine how settling on a whole different planet with (especially in the early years of colonization and space exploration) only sporadic contact with Earth.
Plus it ads realism, in the Star Trek universe there's like many, many more humans that live on colonies than humans that live on Earth or even the Solar System.
I find it a little bizarre that the Dominion War isn’t mentioned once in Picard. Nor is the Romulan/ Federation cooperation that came out of that. Or, of Picard’s help in ousting usurper Shinzon afterwords. Or, of Ambassador Spock’s sacrifice to try and save Romulus. Still, I get the vibe that the Federation is headed towards its height in the Picard era.
I think the director flat out said they had a bunch of references planned but they were told to repeatedly do everything they could to keep it new user friendly.
Like Bruce Maddox, Spot and the Picard Maneuver
Why would PIC go out of its way to mention a war that took place over 20 years ago?
And not the Dominion War being a major reason the Federation is so isolationist, yes.
Because the Romulans were Federation allies in the war. In fact, the Federation wouldn't have won the war without them. Also, the war was the biggest event in the Alpha Quadrant in the last 100 years. In real life, we STILL feel the effects of WWII 80 years after it started.
It just didn't make much sense that so many Starfleet bigwigs were OK with letting a former ally die off. Also, the series has a heavy tie to Nemesis, yet no mention at all of Picard and Co helping to overthrow Shinzon.
I don't think it needs mentioned to know the background and the set up.
And of course by PIC's time, those same allies NO LONGER EXIST.
There are Romulans, yes. But there is no more Romulan Star Empire.
In the immediate aftermath of World War II, the US and USSR went from allies of convenience to global arch-nemeses.
Exactly. And during the Korean War, MacArthur even wanted to drop nuclear weapons on China, another WW2 ally. By the time of the Cuban Missile Crisis, which was just a little further away from World War II than the Romulan Supernova was from the Dominion War, there were flag officers who wanted to start a nuclear war against the Soviet Union. Real life proves that it is very realistic for there to be powerful political factions who hold onto long-time resentments against foreign rivals even when that rival has put its differences aside and bled alongside your soldiers against a common enemy.
And this is all consistent with DS9 itself, in point of fact.
"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges" established that it was Section 31's analysis that after the Dominion War, the only two interstellar states left with a meaningful ability to project power beyond their borders on a multi-sector scale would be the Federation and the Romulan Star Empire, and that the two would sunder their alliance and become rivals for hegemony over local space very shortly.
Section 31 tried to mitigate that possibility by getting their mole Koval, already Chair of the Tal Shiar, installed on the Romulan Continuing Committee towards the Dominion War's end in 2375. But clearly Koval failed and/or was himself later killed, since Shinzon was able to assassinate the Senate and install himself as Praetor just four years later.
Section 31 tried to mitigate that possibility by getting their mole Koval, already Chair of the Tal Shiar, installed on the Romulan Continuing Committee towards the Dominion War's end in 2375. But clearly Koval failed and/or was himself later killed, since Shinzon was able to assassinate the Senate and install himself as Praetor just four years later.
So the idea that the Federation and RSE would have devolved back into rivals before the coming supernova was detected is perfectly consistent with DS9 and doesn't really need much of an explanation. General fans and casual viewers will just remember that the Romulans have almost always been the bad guys, and DS9 fans will remember that the Romulans becoming rivals again was predicted during their show. I would have loved some Dominion War references too, but honestly it would have been just one more background thing that wasn't necessary to the story being told.
G
Gonzo
Guest
Friends today can be enemies tomorrow.
Its always been this way.
Allies of convenience at the time, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
The Dominion War was done really well in DS9, especially Garak's contribution and how it was ended.
A huge diplomatic opportunity was missed with the Romulans when Starfleet gave up on their civilians after the attack on Mars, Picard's attempt was even enough to bring make him some allies in spite of its cancellation.
Would you rather have your enemies outside pissing in or inside pissing out.
The opponents of the rescue mission did have a fair point though, can you ever truly trust the Romulan Military and Tal Shiar, they are the real problems not the civilians or politicians.
Its always been this way.
Allies of convenience at the time, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
The Dominion War was done really well in DS9, especially Garak's contribution and how it was ended.
A huge diplomatic opportunity was missed with the Romulans when Starfleet gave up on their civilians after the attack on Mars, Picard's attempt was even enough to bring make him some allies in spite of its cancellation.
Would you rather have your enemies outside pissing in or inside pissing out.
The opponents of the rescue mission did have a fair point though, can you ever truly trust the Romulan Military and Tal Shiar, they are the real problems not the civilians or politicians.
