The Starship Vs. thread!

This is a thread I had in mind that deals with the question: Which starship would win in a battle?
The rule is: A poster puts 2 ships (they can be from Star Trek OR Star Wars) against each other. After discussing the outcome, it is someone else's turn to do so!

I will chose one first:

Sovereign-Class starship Vs. Executor-Class Super Star Destroyer... (Ex. Vader's Flagship, or the Lusankya).

 

Depends on the writer of the story on who wins.

 

^ lol true.
Let's suppose it's Picard in the Sov's bridge against Vader in the SSD.

Statistics:
The Sov has multiple phaser banks, along with Photon AND Quantum Torpedoes, and she's very maneuverable. Plus, Picard's a competent captain.
But the SSD has several laser batteries and Ion cannons, plus some TIE Fighters. And with Vader on the bridge, he has the Dark Side to his advantage.

 

Is Vader on the Star Destroyer?
Is Picard on the starship?

If you answer "yes" to either of the above questions, then the Sovereign wins, because Vader is an antagonist and the story has an ontological requirement to have him loose, or at least not-win in any situation that doesn't also guarantee a sequel. Naturally, the destruction of the star destroyer could just as easily result in Vader flying away in a tie fighter and inexplicably never speaking of this again even as he is suddenly handed ANOTHER star destroyer three days later.

If the Sovereign class is captained by J.T. Esteban or other never-seen-him-before-but-he-looks-like-a-jackass disposable character, then he'll meet a spectacular end in a fusillade of turbolaser fire.

This is a DEEP extrapolation of the "it's just a TV show" argument, but the way these shows actually work, it's really more about hero shields and hero weapons than it is about the ships themselves. Suffice to say, the protagonist always wins in the end, and while the antagonist doesn't always get killed, he never gets to score a meaningful triumph at the end of the story. Gotta remember that even on Luke's Day of Epic Fail, they STILL managed to totally evade Vader and make him look like an ass in front of his admirals.

 

It's a trap!

 

Vadar is beamed off his ship and into the Enterprise's brig (it's forcefield interrupts the force), Troi comes in and sits outside the cell.

Deanna: "I'm listening."

Vadar: "You see, I never knew my father ..."


.

 

^

 

John Crichton uses a wormhole weapon to blow them both up because he's sick of Trek vs. Wars debates.

 

Well, this doesn't have to be SW vs ST, it can easily be Federation ships vs another Federation ship. lol.

 

Well, the only reasonable way to ascertain which would win is to compare their offensive/defensive capabilities as witnessed on-screen most likely.
In regards to SW vs ST ships, we have limited info on the former to make concrete conclusions.
Still, we know that both the Empire and the Feds have the industrial capacity to construct large ships/stations.
The Empire might be even inferior to the Feds technologically in numerous areas which might necessitate them to build huge ships, and they have the ability to access the resources of an entire Galaxy via Hyperdrive (though we know nothing about their exact fleet numbers - for all we know they could be the same to the Feds), whereas the Feds are limited in that regard to Warp speed (unless we bring Slipstream into the equation which effectively balances things out speed wise) - though the Feds seem to be doing just fine when it comes to building large amounts of ships with less and they can use Warp speeds in combat, whereas the Empire cannot.

We know that 'lasers' should be ineffective against Federation shields (at least early TNG seems to indicate as much), then again we don't know what type of properties do SW lasers have and how effective would they be against Federation shields.
By their very name, Phasers have phasing/vaporizing properties and could prove just as effective against Empire ships as the Dominion for example had over the Feds before the War.

Empire has the Death Star, but Feds can pack as much firepower in pretty much just 1 torpedo casing (which can then be distributed throughout the entire fleet of ships).
I doubt an SSD would be able to withstand a planet-killer type torpedo.
The Death Star even less so if you fire multiple such torpedoes at the station.

Trek had more screen time and Feds displayed a pretty high technological prowess compared to the Empire.
So it's easy to say that on visual basis alone, Trek seems to have the advantage, but we might not know full extent of Empire's capabilities (at least destructive power wise).

Then again, the Empire managed to partly construct a second Death Star in several years... however, for all we know, they could have dedicated majority of their resources to the effort which is why the station was made in such a relatively small time frame.
If the Feds pulled all of their construction resources to construct something as big, how long would it take them if they had the necessary resources?
They might even be able to construct the thing in that amount of time completely thanks to replicators and transporters (none of which seem to exist in the Empire).

 

By observation, the Empire's ships are faster at FTL, than the Federation. But while in FTL (by whatever name) the Federation can very easily scan both FTL space and normal space around themselves.

The Empire seems to lack this ability (remember Solo's deceleration into the remains of Alderan?). Also Imperial science can't not track a ship in FTL unless there is a tracking device in or on the ship being tracked, the Federation can casually track ships (without a cloak) when in FTL.

Even if they could not match the speed of the Empire, Starfleet could say place FTL mines in the calculated path of the enemies ship's and destroy them in this fashion.

If the Federation President and his little circle were to be killed, the Federation would continue.

If the Emperor and his immediate henchmen were killed, the war is over. And perhaps the Empire's government would fall as well.

The Empire is a cult of personality, however the Federation is not wrapped around a person, or a small group.


.

 

Let's not forget that the Empire is an outgrowth of the Old Republic which stood as (at least) an interstellar organization for 25,000 years. The Federation is a small fraction as old and therefore has had a much more limited time to develop their tech. One might suppose that Imperial shield generators are orders of magnitude more strong than their Federation counterparts. And the SD's are not armed with lasers, but, rather, turbolasers which seem to be big fat cousins to blasters rather than lasers. Notice that they deliver a bolt of energy with lateral light emission as opposed to a laser which has no lateral emissions. It's been suggested that turbolasers are so called because a serious laser is involved in the guts of the thing to generate the blast. Turbolasers are not very accurate against small targets ("Their fighters are evading our turbolasers!") but the Enterprise is hardly a fighter.

Also, it seems like the Feds have no defense against Imperial ion cannon. The Breen used a similar weapon against the Feds during the Dominion War to devastating effect. Assuming an SSD is so equipped (And why wouldn't it be? The thing's frikkin' huge!) a sovvie wouldn't be up to the task.

So, E-E vs. Executer, Based on a technical review alone (who cares who is in command) in a head to head fight, the E could use torpedoes until it got smashed to pieces against the awesome hail of ion cannon and turbolaser (fatty blaster *not* lasers) fire. No doubt, there would be plenty of damage done to Vader's ship in the last moment's of Picard's, but I don't think there's a serious chance in a universe where it isn't a fight between protagonist and antagonist. Maybe some fancy footwork might even the odds (I wonder how effective the Picard Maneuver would be against an SSD?).

(Interestingly, I a wrote a short paper in college about this very subject and I concluded with that very supposition,; that the story forces would trump the military and technical considerations.)

--Alex

 

That's the best explanation I've read thus far! Excellent points as well.
If anyone else wants to put 2 ships against each other, feel free.
In the meantime, to stick to the ST universe, here's a good one: Excelsior-Class vs. Galaxy-Class...

 

While the Federation might only be a couple of centuries old, some of it's members (like the Vulcans) were making interstellar journeys for thousands of years.

Plus, at least as I understand it, the old Republic thousands of years ago was quite small, and grew over time. Even by the time period shown in the movies it encompassed about two-thirds of it's galaxy, there were large areas outside of it in the "rim." ... as compared to the Federation's two quadrants.

Also, the Empire wouldn't dare project the majority of it's forces against Starfleet, because they're needed in the Empire itself to maintain terror and obedience over it's own population.

Also, Starfleet has a obvious advantage in the form of the Rebel Alliance, who the Federation can ally themselves with. The Empire has no such group "inside" the Federation.

Isn't that exactly what a phaser beams does too? In common usage "turbo" is a prefix the delivers to the following word an emphasize. So turbolaser simply means "more of a laser." In other words, it still a laser.

PICARD: "Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields."

Albertese, what happens if the Enterprise engages a "Executer" while FTL? I don't believe imperial warships can even see around themselves in this realm, therefor can not target their weapons.

Starfleet doesn't suffer from this adorable little problem and will cut a SSD to pieces, without having to worry about return fire.

Starfleet Captains tend to think their way through battles, and not just blindly fire at their enemies. Consider how Riker got the Bird of Prey to lower it's shield in GEN. Who is in command of the opposing ships is very important.

It doesn't matter what you have, it's how you use it.

 

Considering how much the Duras sisters were peeing their pants at the idea of how badly the E-D outgunned their defective BoP, and even throughout that beatdown b/c of the shields the E-D's weapons still worked, I can't help but think that if Riker simply maintained fire the ship would've been saved

 

That's true. But for all the history Vulcan/Romulan star-flight has, their ships of the 22nd Century were considered relatively primitive compared to their 24th Century descendants. This suggests that the period of development that is critical to this discussion is indeed the two centuries prior to the construction of the Sovereign-class USS Enterprise. IIRC, We're never told exactly how long the Vulcans/Romulans have had interstellar capabilities (somehow I have a figure of 2,000 years in my head, but I have no idea where that came from). Vulcan attitudes about "we already know it all" seem to have stagnated their development and we don't know when that might have happened exactly either.

OTOH, all the Expanded Universe stories from going as far back as 6,000 years BBY, seem to reveal fundamentally unchanged technology from that available during the Galactic Civil War. Any advancement seemed pretty lateral in it's nature; variations on themes, not wholesale improvement. We don't really know at what point their technology plateaued either. But compare the Vulcan's two(ish) millennia with the Republic/Empire's twenty-five, and we see a much larger span for ironing out the details of how stuff works.

Fair enough. It would only seem logical. But, again, we're talking tens of thousands of years ago. Besides, I figure that speaks as much or more about the political structure of the Galaxy more than it's inhabitant's technology.

Two points here. First of all, the Old Republic seems to have indeed controlled 60% to 70% of their galaxy. But I'm left with the impression that the Galactic Empire was expanding to some extent as well. Not likely enough to alter the overall percentage of the galaxy held too much. But in Episode I we are explicitly told that Tatooine is not part of the Republic, but in Episode IV, all the Imperial presence in Mos Eisley would suggest that it had been annexed one way or another since the transition to empire. This expansion likely took place in a lot of areas in the Outer Rim.

Secondly, While the Federation exists in two quadrants, it's not fair to assume it controls half the Milky Way. It's a large tendrilly mass mostly in (but by no means dominating) the Alpha Quadrant with a few arms reaching past the border of Beta Quadrant. The Federation is surrounded by it's neighboring national powers who also occupy significant sections of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants with plenty of room to spare before you get to Gamma or Delta Quadrants. I recall somewhere (again, I can't remember where exactly) a figure of something like 14% of the galaxy having been explored by the 2360's. (Maybe Wesley said so at some point? Maybe it was in a Technical Manual or something?) 14% is a far cry from 65%. But again, that only makes sense given that one of these groups had a 20,000 year head start.

Both good points! Of course, I think we're talking more about a one-on-one encounter rather than fleet deployments.

Sure does. Phasers aren't lasers either.

So a turbolift is ... more ... of a lift. Okay, I'll buy that. I suppose sideways moving is more than just up and down. I always figured they were trying to make you think it moved faster, but either way I guess it works! On the other hand, words can remain in a lexicon long after their literal meaning is obsolete. On a third hand, there may indeed be a really powerful laser inside the machinery that is used as a component in generating the bolt of blaster energy that shoots out of the barrel (Also note: barrel, not lens. A laser is emitted from a lens not a hole like a gun.). In this case, then the reference to "laser" in the term "turbolaser" might be technically current after all even though it is really a giant blaster cannon.

Except that the Enterprise's warp drive is in a totally different category of FTL flight than a Star Destroyer's hyperdrive.

A warp engine generates nested subspace fields which press against each other and propel the ship. The nature of subspace isolates the ship from the surrounding volume of the universe in a way that negates the effects of special relativity (i.e. linear compression, infinite mass, and time dilation). The ship is isolated from the universe, but not removed from it, therefore, sensors utilizing subspace radio beams can still "look out" as it were. This is why you are correct in that the Fed ships won't suffer from blindness.

But a hyperdrive is altogether different. It tunnels through hyperspace which is an alternate dimension from real space. It is connected and related to real space as gravity shadows do effect how things move through hyperspace. But the reason why you can't "look out" here is that the ship is literally not in the universe their trying to look at.

Therefore a warp-driven ship would not be able to shoot at a hyper-driven ship as the two vessels are not occupying the same dimension.

There's another factor: relative velocity. A warp driven ship is moving at dozens to hundreds of times the speed of light. The Star Trek Encyclopedia lists the normal maximum for a Starfleet vessel as warp 9.2 at a slick 1,649x the speed of light. Bear in mind this is a dash speed, not a cruising speed. But a ship in hyperspace moves at millions of times the speed of light. Travel from Coruscant to any planet in the Outer Rim seems to be matters of hours, not weeks. (Note: Lucasfilm's official line is that the events of Episode III take all of nine days to unfold, and there's plenty of back-and-forth across the galaxy in those nine days). No Starfleet ship would have a snowball's chance of catching a hyper-driven ship in a chase. Period.

This only seems fair given a twenty millenia technological head start.

On this point we very much agree! This is where protagonists outshine the antagonists. Personnel and quick wits can certainly make a difference. But on a strictly technical perspective given the relative strengths and weaknesses of the opposing military's technological equipment, I still say the SSD will simply stomp a Sovvie head-to-head.

However, that's not to say there aren't more parable ship's from the Imperial Navy. The few ships of the Executer class were the biggest and baddest the Imperials had at the time. It was only really outshined by the Eclipse and the Death Stars. Throw the E-E at, say, a Venator and you'd probably have better parity. Throw it as something like a Carrak cruiser and it'll probably have a solid upper hand. But the Super Star Destroyer is just not a fair fight. Sorry.

I, too, once fought the fine fight and tried to reason out how the Federation could beat the Empire technologically. I suppose deep down I'm probably a little more of a Star Trek fan than I am a Star Wars fan (though not by a wide margin). I really wanted the Feds to come out on top. But the more honest thought I gave to this particular problem the more the answer seems clear.


--Alex

 

Wasn't SW technology for the most part been indicated as stagnant?
Trek humans could have easily skipped numerous technological stages in order to reach their level in the late 24th century.

By contrast, the Dominion was in space for over 2000 years, and it described the Federation as 'vast'... implying it's just as large if not bigger than the Dominion.
The technological differential between those 2 powers was minor at best, one which SF managed to close the gap with for the most part before the war even started.
Granted the Dominion was able to produce ships at a slightly faster pace, but Worf commented that they were barely able to keep up... implying they were able to match the Dominion in that regard as well.
The ly's long range transporter on the other hand is a different matter which remained to be the Dominions advantage, but seemingly ineffective when shields were up during the War.

So the Federation did in mere 210 years (since it's founding) what took other powers much longer time.
And let's not forget, humans in Trek were able to come very close in matching the Vulcans tech since they first developed Warp drive... it only took them 90 years to do so (they were still inferior in various areas, but only by a decade or so).

The Wars species could have been stuck on a specific technological stage for thousands of years, which is evidently implied.

The Feds on the other hand we've seen being able to develop early defenses for temporal incursions in the 24th century alone (individual ship scale yes but they did it).
26th century marked per TNG their ability to travel to history with ease (whereas in the 23rd and 24th, it was difficult and avoided for the most part), and the 29th century ship Relativity (as evident from Braxtons smaller shuttle sized ship) was loads more advanced.
Oh yes, and let's not forget the crazy 31st century technology as evident by Daniels.

So, in mere 1100 years since the founding of the Federation, they develop temporal technology to such a high degree which permeates every other area it's not even funny.
Wars galaxy... same for thousands of years with nothing but minor revisions and next to no indication of versatile capabilities.

This implies a distinct technological development difference between the Empire and Federation in which the latter develops at a pretty fast rate, and the Empire stays at pretty much the same level for dozens of thousands of years.

By this analogy alone, just because the Empire has a faster FTL drive, doesn't mean that their defensive/offensive capabilities could prove to be a match or outmatch the Federation.
At the same time, Empire ships would require precise maps of the area they are going to.
The Feds don't need to worry about that... even when it comes to slipstream or TW.

Empire relies a lot on fighters... the Federation does not.
Rapid phaser firing would effectively deal with those crafts... or eve worse for the Empire, the Federation ships can employ their shuttles and runabouts for the same thing (which incidentally are practically as versatile as the capital ships, only less powerful - but can still be formidable).

 

I know you said that, but I couldn't help but post this most peculiar way of posting ST vs. SW. I'd say it's coincidental, but it could simply be that these threads happen often enough

http://www.cracked.com/article_19612_star-wars-vs-star-trek-objective-analysis.html

 

Here's a good site which kind of supports my arguements. It presents a pretty objective analysis of what's seen on-screen and reveals that the turbolasers as seen on-screen on Star Wars are absurdly powerful. To sum it up, if the Enterprise had a turbolaser attached to it, it would be hard pressed to fire it as much as once. We are talking about truly astronomical quantities of power here. The fact that the target vessels do not instantly incinerate at the first hit suggests that the shields are up to the challenge and must therefore be similarly powerful. So if we're asking about a Sovereign-class starship against an Executor-class Super Star Destroyer, the answer is pretty clear who's gonna win that fight. In fact, trade out the SSD for an Imperial-class Star Destroyer, and I still think it's not a fair fight. The competing technologies are simply not on the same scale, regardless of whether or not the Empire has a time machine or a transporter.

--Alex