The Star Trek Encyclopedia getting first update since 1999!

[Christopher]

I'd always assumed Vic was a recreation of a real person from back in the '60s and that Felix was just a big fan. Wasn't there even a mention of a historical Vic in one of the Eugenics Wars books?

I think it would make more sense if Vic were a fictional character and Felix named him after the actor he worked with to create the holo-character's performance. The Mirror Fontaine could be the counterpart of that actor. Sure, I suppose Felix could've based the character on himself, but it seems more likely that, even with really advanced personality simulation software, it'd be easier and better to hire a real actor to lay down the foundations of a holo-character's personality and behavior, in order to give it that human touch. Same reason video games hire voice actors instead of just using synthesized voices.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Wasn't there even a mention of a historical Vic in one of the Eugenics Wars books?

No.

 

[Idran]

I think that is a perfectly wonderful idea. Splitting these two major time lines would have been good. That could clear up new fans confusions, and help us older fans, know what happened in both timelines and what only occurred in one. Also, speculation as to when the timelines split could be part of that section.

That wouldn't have been authoritative, though. Just because it's in this book doesn't mean it's official, it would just have been their impression of what's only true in which. The only thing that's official is what's on screen, and what's on screen didn't specify which events were unique to which timeline; any interpretation beyond what's on screen is editorial. Not a bad thing, that - I don't mean it to dismiss it, since theorizing is always fun - but it wouldn't let you know anything about the new timeline, really, it would just let you know the Okudas' view about what goes where based on their appraisal of what they saw.

 

[Kemaiku]

"Both" happeened until January 2233, which means everything in Enterprise and it's novels occured the same in both. Hence the model of the NX Alpha and NX-01, the Franklin/MACO's etc in the new universe.

Everything after that is a divergence.

All 7 TV series (ENT/DSC/TOS/TAS/TNG/DS9/VGR) and movies 1-10 are the "Prime Timeline"
Enterprise and the 4 "Nu" movies are the "Kelvin Timeline"

 

[DonIago]

So what do we think happened to the Franklin in the Primeline? It's still marooned but the Feds never explored in that direction, so it's still waiting to be discovered?

This has most likely been discussed elsewhere, so apologies if I'm asking people to regurgitate.

 

[USS Firefly]

I think we never find out what would happen to them in the prime universe

 

[Idran]

"Both" happeened until January 2233, which means everything in Enterprise and it's novels occured the same in both. Hence the model of the NX Alpha and NX-01, the Franklin/MACO's etc in the new universe.

Everything after that is a divergence.

All 7 TV series (ENT/DSC/TOS/TAS/TNG/DS9/VGR) and movies 1-10 are the "Prime Timeline"
Enterprise and the 4 "Nu" movies are the "Kelvin Timeline"

How do we know that all time travel instances that started after 2233 and ended before 2233 still happened in the new timeline, though? There could easily be timeline changes as a result of time travel going from future to past now having been erased, like we saw in Yesteryear when the lack of a time travel instance in the future caused the past to be changed at a point prior to when time travel actually happened rather than at the same moment, that moment being the moment that Kirk and Spock went to Orion's past before the episode started. That'd mean that the point of divergence would be whatever the furthest point in the past anyone affected by the primary 2233-forward alteration of Nero's appearance would ever have gone back to, which could be thousands, millions, or billions of years ago. Assuming that Q interference doesn't count, that'd be at least 1893 just by what we've actually seen on screen alone.

This has come up a lot, and I've always figured that if Kelvin-Kirk took a glimpse at 1930 New York through the Guardian, he wouldn't see Prime-Kirk anywhere, and if Kelvin-Spock took a glimpse at 1986 San Francisco, there wouldn't be a Prime-Spock to be seen. Exactly like what happened in Yesteryear.

 

[F. King Daniel]

So what do we think happened to the Franklin in the Primeline? It's still marooned but the Feds never explored in that direction, so it's still waiting to be discovered?

This has most likely been discussed elsewhere, so apologies if I'm asking people to regurgitate.

I like to think he's sitting there on Altamid, with Manus and Kalara, bringing down passing ships and generally getting more and more cranky.

 

[Caretaker]

How do we know that all time travel instances that started after 2233 and ended before 2233 still happened in the new timeline, though? There could easily be timeline changes as a result of time travel going from future to past now having been erased, like we saw in Yesteryear when the lack of a time travel instance in the future caused the past to be changed at a point prior to when time travel actually happened rather than at the same moment, that moment being the moment that Kirk and Spock went to Orion's past before the episode started. That'd mean that the point of divergence would be whatever the furthest point in the past anyone affected by the primary 2233-forward alteration of Nero's appearance would ever have gone back to, which could be thousands, millions, or billions of years ago. Assuming that Q interference doesn't count, that'd be at least 1893 just by what we've actually seen on screen alone.

This has come up a lot, and I've always figured that if Kelvin-Kirk took a glimpse at 1930 New York through the Guardian, he wouldn't see Prime-Kirk anywhere, and if Kelvin-Spock took a glimpse at 1986 San Francisco, there wouldn't be a Prime-Spock to be seen. Exactly like what happened in Yesteryear.

See, that's why I disagree with Pegg's (and the new Encyclopedia) claims. I go with the Narada/Kelvin was the point of divergence - all the other time travel to points prior to January 2233 happened "as is", but those futures are now alternate/possible futures that won't happen. If the Pegg/Okuda viewpoint was the original intention, they should have just said it outright in the films and make a clean reboot. It just seems lazy to me - so that writers don't have to look at what came before at all.

On the other hand, Simon Pegg's idea at least is a better way to explain Kirk's eye color change.

 

[Christopher]

See, that's why I disagree with Pegg's (and the new Encyclopedia) claims. I go with the Narada/Kelvin was the point of divergence - all the other time travel to points prior to January 2233 happened "as is", but those futures are now alternate/possible futures that won't happen. If the Pegg/Okuda viewpoint was the original intention, they should have just said it outright in the films and make a clean reboot.

Laypeople give too much weight to "the original intention." I think most writers will tell you that their original intentions are often not as good as their later revisions. No creative work springs fully formed from the brow like Athena. It's the end result of a process of trial and error and refinement. Sometimes an idea doesn't work as well as you hoped and you need to come up with something better. Sometimes you belatedly discover a mistake or an oversight that you need to fix. Sometimes -- often -- you make discoveries along the way that make your ideas work even better.

And of course, when there's more than one creative mind involved, a new creator will see a concept differently than the original creators did, and will offer new perspectives or insights. Most of the creative team of the first two movies has moved on now, so their intentions no longer dictate the development of the film series.

It just seems lazy to me - so that writers don't have to look at what came before at all.

I think that's misunderstanding the premise. The idea is that history mostly happened the same way -- after all, it still has Kirk, Spock, the Enterprise, etc. -- but certain specifics might be subtly different. I don't think that the Okudas were making any kind of prescription for later screenwriters when they came up with this postulate (and I'm sure it was theirs, because the text of the new Encyclopedia must've been written months before Pegg ever brought it up); I think they were just trying to offer a rationalization for the aspects of the first two Kelvin movies that were hard to reconcile with Prime canon pre-2233. In previous discussions, I've cited several such things that could be just chalked up to artistic license but could also be explained by this premise: the Kelvin being so much larger than typical Starfleet ships of the era, Earth's cities being so much more built up and packed with super-skyscrapers, Captain Pike appearing about a decade older than he should be at the time. I've recently realized there's another discrepancy this could explain: The mention in STID that Khan's plans had included genocide, when "Space Seed" stated there had been no massacres under his rule. You could add Khan having magic healing blood, which he didn't seem to have in his Prime incarnation. I think the Okudas' hypothesis is meant to handwave how discrepancies like that can exist even if the timeline is supposed to be pretty much the same otherwise.

The irony, of course, is that Beyond had fewer inconsistencies with the Prime universe than the previous movies did. So even if the original filmmakers' intention was that everything had been the same pre-2233, they didn't do a perfect job of depicting that. And it's when a work has such imperfections that later retcons to the "original intention" can be beneficial.

 

[Lt. Tyler]

Yeah but if the Star Trek books and technical manuals are not canon, then some of the dates in the Okuda timeline such as the dates of TMP and TWOK cannot be considered canon??

 

[Idran]

Yeah but if the Star Trek books and technical manuals are not canon, then some of the dates in the Okuda timeline such as the dates of TMP and TWOK cannot be considered canon??

They already aren't. Like was mentioned before, the Chronology and Encyclopedia said Kirk's first 5YM ended 2269, but "Q2" established it as ending in 2270. (And they didn't update the Encyclopedia to correct that.) And there's been a lot of debate about the Okuda TMP date being weird.

 

[Christopher]

The Okuda reference works have always stated outright that they're only making conjectures about anything beyond screen canon. But for some reason, people keep overlooking that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

How do we know that all time travel instances that started after 2233 and ended before 2233 still happened in the new timeline, though?

Because, as of the point of divergence in 2233, both timelines are possible futures.

Remember, ST09 didn't erase the prime timeline, so any travellers coming from a point after 2233 (in EITHER timeline) can travel back to a point before it. And even meet each other - because before 2233, there is only one.

It's exactly like a road which diverges into two 'forks'. Travellers on either branch can walk or drive backwards along it, until they reach a point before it diverges. Then they can both interact. Same story here.

As for Pegg's comments? The hell with it. I hate to sound dense, but he can say whatever he likes - doesn't make it true, until a film proves it. And until that time, Pegg's theory is just that - it's only a theory.

And the so-called "inconsistencies"? Let's run with that:

- Pike's age? You know, I wasn't aware Bruce Greenwood was the only recasting of a role we've ever seen. Gee, how COULD I have missed that? (seriously, we have no idea how old Pike actually is - in EITHER timeline - and recasting of roles is so absolutely widespread that this doesn't mean anything. You don't see people whining about alternate timelines just because James Cromwell looks older than Glenn Corbett, do ya?)

- Earth's cities being built up: Again, we almost never SEE Earth in the prime timeline, so the depiction of San Francisco is hardly a problem. And even so, by the time we see Kelvinverse SF, 30 years have gone by since the timeline divergence. They can do a lot of building in that short a span.

- The Kelvin's size: Who's to say Starfleet doesn't have a wide range of ship sizes? They can have big ones, small ones, the whole shebang.

- Khan's genocide, or lack thereof: I've already said how much I believe the horseshit about there being no massacres under Khan's rule. I just chalk that up to Augment propaganda. Khan, even as portrayed in TOS, is exactly the kind of person who WOULD commit massacres (just ask the crew of Regula 1) and the only reason anybody ever said there weren't any massacres is because his dictatorial regime didn't allow anyone to know about them. Augment rulers could hardly NOT massacre, anyway - it's what they were literally made to do. The concept of a benevolent Augment is a contradiction in terms, if there ever was one.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

What does this fourth edition identify Nurse Bandee's species as? According to MA, "The third edition of the Star Trek Encyclopedia identifies Bandee as a Bajoran; this was before Bandee's appearance in "Extreme Measures", the only appearance of the character."

 

[elric428]

What does this fourth edition identify Nurse Bandee's species as? According to MA, "The third edition of the Star Trek Encyclopedia identifies Bandee as a Bajoran; this was before Bandee's appearance in "Extreme Measures", the only appearance of the character."

Just looked. Her species is not mentioned in the new edition.

 

[elric428]

Excellent article about Continuity Issues in the Kelvin Timeline...

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/abramsverse_continuity.htm

 

[Therin of Andor]

Simon Pegg's idea at least is a better way to explain Kirk's eye color change.

How did you cope with Saavik's eye-colour change between STs II and III?

 

[Avro Arrow]

Augment rulers could hardly NOT massacre, anyway - it's what they were literally made to do.

Really? Based on what? Was this mentioned in ENT? If so, I don't recall it.

If true, the scientists involved could have just saved themselves all that effort. Garden-variety humans are sadly quite capable of committing massacres all on their own, without needing any fancy genetic augmentation.

 

[Markonian]

The homicidal tendency was an unintended side effect. A software bug, so to speak. Soong corrected it on the stolen 2153 embryos.