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The Spock/Uhura romance in STID was disappointing.

The "professionalism" thing is a non starter. Is any one really interested in seeing these characters as Dragnet in space?

I'm just wondering when the hell "professionalism" became something Star Trek carried well. Shit, how many times did we see in the original series where a crewmember was leering at women, or making racist/misogynist comments?

Remember when Captain Kirk thought his Yeoman was giving him a nice back massage on the bridge? Hell, Dr. McCoy was always showing up on the bridge with his crass emotionalism, to rail at Spock, or Kirk, or anyone within earshot.

This professionalism thing is most definitely a recent development. It's a child's idea of how adults are supposed to behave: super serious, cause this is super duper important adult stuff we have to do.
 
On the other hand, Uhura strives to understand him and his way of being, doesn't judge him for it, and finally comes to accept and even appreciate it.

It's been a while since I've seen the movies but I got the impression that Uhura, Kirk and Abrams are pretty judgmental toward Spock and that their views are that he should gradually become more and more human.

Not really. Kirk finds Spock exasperating because he doesn't "get" Spock and in a lot of ways Spock doesn't "get" him either. It isn't a judgement thing so much as Kirk finding Spock almost as frustrating as he is dependable (and HOLY SHIT is he dependable).

Uhura, on the other hand, strives to understand his emotional side even as he struggles to control it. It's not easy to look at things the Vulcan way and take that interpretation of how to look at the world, but Spock IS half Vulcan, and so she takes that into account in all of their dealings together. Even the "fight" in Mudd's shuttle has that same basic dynamic: she isn't challenging his emotional choices so much as his logical ones, his priorities and his personal objectives and how they line up with his behavior; Spock, ironically, winds up telling her that he WASN'T making a logical choice, and that shutting off his emotions for that situation was basically his version of despair: over loosing his life, loosing his future, and loosing her.

They're not judgmental in the sense that they disapprove of his Vulcan side. Far from it: he's their "Vulcan family member" that is at times hard to understand, but damn are we glad he's here.
 
The "professionalism" thing is a non starter. Is any one really interested in seeing these characters as Dragnet in space?

I'm just wondering when the hell "professionalism" became something Star Trek carried well.
Never really has. Wrath of Khan and Undiscovered Country come the closest, but the former is a ship full of cadets who probably don't know any better (and don't perform particularly well under stress anyway) and the latter is a ship full of seasoned veterans with an amazingly top-heavy chain of command (three Captains and at least two commanders).

Shit, how many times did we see in the original series where a crewmember was leering at women, or making racist/misogynist comments?
And then there's "the lights of Zetar" where Scotty calls up the bridge in a frenzy yelling "Captain, Captain, stop firing, you're killing my girlfriend!"

This professionalism thing is most definitely a recent development.
It's not really even that. It was a perception from TNG that Captain Picard was kind of a stickler for discipline on the bridge at all times. Except that he wasn't, not really; he was mainly a stickler for "Keep that boy the hell off my bridge" and "Was that a pun? Puns are not allowed!"

Of course, Picard himself wasn't that serious all the time, he just SOUNDED that way because he was the master of the deadpan joke:

PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?
RIKER: Regulations so call for a Yellow Alert.
PICARD: A very old regulation. Well, make it so, Number One. And reduce speed. Drop main shields as well.
RIKER: May I ask why, sir?
PICARD: In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One.
 
^ I forgot that scene, and yeah, Picard's humor was low key and deadpan. Stewart was good at delivering on that. :lol:

I guess people started thinking this is how everyone in Starfleet was supposed to act. That's why I see it as a child's understanding of how adults operate. Everyone has to be super grown up and super serious all of the time, because this is really really real stuff happening.
 
And look how well 'Keep the children off the Bridge!' went. It lasted a grand total of one episodes, and that was only because Wesley was too busy fucking around in Engineering during 'The Naked Now'. And considering Starfleet not only let Scotty's nephew serve under him, but apparently let Scotty continue to act as an examiner, obviously they have more faith in their officers than we do now.

So McCoy bickers with Spock during and about life or death situations, typically in front of the entire Bridge (including mocking his last ditch effort to save everyone in Galileo Seven) and that's fine and just part of the friendship. Chapel comes on to Spock in every other episode during the early seasons, in spite of Spock practically writing 'NOT INTERESTED' on a Billboard, and that's also fine.

But Uhura has one conversation where she rips into him about behaviour that is bothering everyone (McCoy and Kirk both seperately comment on it), and which might be dangerous for them (they're getting the impression Spock doesn't really care about whether he or they might live or die) ...and that's derailing the characters?
 
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But Uhura has one conversation where she rips into him about behaviour that is bothering everyone (McCoy and Kirk both seperately comment on it), and which might be dangerous for them (they're getting the impression Spock doesn't really care about whether he or they might live or die) ...and that's derailing the characters?

consider_zps09c7bb98.jpg


SPOCK: Miss Uhura, your last sub-space log contained an error in the frequencies column.
UHURA: Mister Spock, sometimes I think if I hear that word frequency once more, I'll cry.
SPOCK: Cry?
UHURA: I was just trying to start a conversation.
SPOCK: Well, since it is illogical for a communications officer to resent the word frequency, I have no answer.
UHURA: No, you have an answer. I'm an illogical woman who's beginning to feel too much a part of that communications console. Why don't you tell me I'm an attractive young lady, or ask me if I've ever been in love? Tell me how your planet Vulcan looks on a lazy evening when the moon is full.
SPOCK: Vulcan has no moon, Miss Uhura.
UHURA: I'm not surprised, Mister Spock.
CREWMAN [OC]: Transporter room to Bridge. Landing party returning. They report one death.
SPOCK: Bridge acknowledging.
UHURA: I don't believe it.
SPOCK: Explain.
UHURA: You explain. That means that somebody is dead and you just sit there. It could be Captain Kirk. He's the closest thing you have to a friend.
SPOCK: Lieutenant, my demonstration of concern will not change what happened. The transporter room is very well-manned and they will call if they need my assistance.


THIS HAPPENED IN TOS

Whatever issues you might have with the reboot movies, Uhura's characterization is MASSIVELY improved in almost every respect, and her relationship with Spock actually adds a dimension of depth that neither of them would have had separately.
 
Well yeah, but what would that Roddenberry fellow know about military professionalism?
 
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I like the Spock/Uhura relationship - I think that's a better word for it than "romance". No-one is trying to woo anyone here. They seem like two adults making it work under sometimes trying circumstances.

The only blemish is when Uhura corners Spock while they are flying down to Kronos. Bringing up serious relationship stuff in public is always a punk move, especially if your partner is a Vulcan. But I don't blame Uhura so much as the writers, and apart from the problematic set-up I like the couple's emotional transaction - and Kirk's bemused bystander status.

The ship assignment scene in ST09 is interesting, among other reasons, because arguably this is Spock actually trying to break up with Uhura. We can speculate about the different reasons he might have had for this (discomfort with emotional intimacy being top of the list), but the end result is Uhura kept the relationship intact and Spock didn't object.
(Reminds me of the Scrubs episode where JD tries to break up with someone, and she says "No." "You can't just say no. No is the answer to a question, and I clearly wasn't asking a question.")

While a brilliant scientist and capable officer, Spock is something of a man-child when it comes to relationships (due to an upbringing we Terrans might describe as "monastic"), but Uhura is prepared to put in the work, and ultimately there is a convincing emotional intimacy between them that hardly requires words, and which justifies whatever friction is occasionally produced.

I remember right before they kissed, and I was thinking "No way..." and then it happened! :D

And then SQEEEE!!!!! :scream:
 
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I want to know where some of these people are having these perfectly organized relationships where an angry significant other waits only until the most appropriate time to broach a subject that seriously concerns him or her, and who never involves their friends (as Kirk is most definitely a friend by this point). I'd also like to know who wants the kind of partner who thinks to themselves "well, I'd love to kiss my lover one last time, just in case they're going off to their certain death, but I'll just stand back here and nod. They'll understand, I'm sure."

I mean, what turns a man neutral? Lust for gold? Power?

Diet Coke.
 
THIS HAPPENED IN TOS

and that Spock wasn't even her boyfriend! :lol:


I like the Spock/Uhura relationship - I think that's a better word for it than "romance". No-one is trying to woo anyone here. They seem like two adults making it work under sometimes trying circumstances.

The only blemish is when Uhura corners Spock while they are flying down to Kronos. Bringing up serious relationship stuff in public is always a punk move, especially if your partner is a Vulcan. But I don't blame Uhura so much as the writers, and apart from the problematic set-up I like the couple's emotional transaction - and Kirk's bemused bystander status.

The ship assignment scene in ST09 is interesting, among other reasons, because arguably this is Spock actually trying to break up with Uhura. We can speculate about the different reasons he might have had for this (discomfort with emotional intimacy being top of the list), but the end result is Uhura kept the relationship intact and Spock didn't object.
(Reminds me of the Scrubs episode where JD tries to break up with someone, and she says "No." "You can't just say no. No is the answer to a question, and I clearly wasn't asking a question.")

While a brilliant scientist and capable officer, Spock is something of a man-child when it comes to relationships (due to an upbringing we Terrans might describe as "monastic"), but Uhura is prepared to put in the work, and ultimately there is a convincing emotional intimacy between them that hardly requires words, and which justifies whatever friction is occasionally produced.

I remember right before they kissed, and I was thinking "No way..." and then it happened! :D

And then SQEEEE!!!!! :scream:


the vibes I get in the 'farragut' scene, from the moment Uhura hears it and then confronts Spock, is that she knew it was Spock's fault (and that he changed her assignment) and was ready to kick his a$$ and when she gets to him he has this 'uh oh' moment but then when they are walking and she's following him and reciting him back everything he had said about her skills, he's definitely grinning at one point.
I have the photo evidence :lol:
VSgERxx.jpg

she's pissed and he's.. amused.

for me, it wasn't really about their relationship (for her) as much as she was angry that he overcompensated well knowing she had worked her a$$ to be on the enterprise. IMO she could care less in that point if her boyfriend was on that ship too or he suddenly was transfered to a base in Machu Picchu. She wanted to be on the enterprise because she had worked for that, she didn't want to be there because Spock was there.
Contrary to what someone said here, they don't have a co-dependent relationship. There are not one but two instances in the movies where there is the possibility they might not be able to work on the same ship (in the end of stxi and then at the beginning of stid when Spock gets transfered to another ship) and in none of those instances it's ever implied that working on different ships would be an issue for them and the continuation of their relationship. Maybe officers are even trained about that and find long distance relationships a normal occurrence - who knows, maybe starfleet even has the rule that only married couples or those with kids can get transfered to the same ship while for the rest of the couples it's a matter of luck?

back to the hangar scene,
if you read the novelization the script says that he was concerned for her and I don't know what to make of that.
I don't think Spock was the one who would make the definitive assignments for all the cadets, since that was an emergency happened right when the cadets were graduating, everyone there got assigned to a ship for that specific emergency, but I'm not convinced those were definitive. (of course this doesn't justify Spock or makes him overcompensating something Uhura had to accept)
Maybe he was scared about what they'd find once they got to vulcan and from his logic, the farragut would get less exposure than the flag ship.
Or maybe, in tune with what you said, he got scared and he really was concerned about favoritism (and his control in general).
I don't think anyone in their right mind would ever accuse a vulcan of favoritism and if the academy did that with Spock they'd essentially project a human prejudice on a member of a different species who might not be able to show favoritism at all (e. g., how could Sarek even be allowed to sit there with the other vulcan elders when Spock got accepted to the vulcan science academy?). In Uhura's case, from her list of accomplishments (the complete one from the script is quite impressive) she really was one of the top students. Maybe Spock's concerns for appearance of favoritism was less about what people would say about him and more about what humans (especially other cadets) would say about her even if unfair because she had all the credits?
or maybe the fact he had faced prejudices since he was a kid (and from the vulcans themselves!) makes him defensive and distrustful about people now.
But that's just suppositions.
The idea that someone like him could be scared and have insecurities is interesting because it's kind of unpredictable...like imagining him being jealous or show other weaknesses typical of the humans.
 
I agree that some of the relationship stuff is shoe-horned into 'on-duty' scenes for pacing. The Last Ship has the luxury of a serialisation to deal with relationships. I also agree that every iteration of Trek has 'unprofessional' moments, many of which were for humour that worked. It's impossible to lay down a red line when people's humour and tolerance and culture are set at different levels.

I also agree that Trek has always had a far more lackadaisical attitude towards discipline and professionalism than say the modern British or US forces.

The Uhura moment was very early on in the show, during a routine part of the day, and was showcasing the difference between Spock and the emotional humans, so it was an establishing scene. If Uhura had been doing the same thing during a space battle, I certainly would consider that unprofessional ijn the extreme. More generally, TOS was lamentably poor at showing its women as being professional as opposed to frivolous but times have changed. Even TOS Uhura became progressivley more professional as the show went on but if I can cite a NuTrek hierarchy of professionalism, I think Pike, Spock, and Sulu score very highly, Uhura yo-yos a bit, Chekov is a bit too frenetic, McCoy is probably no better or worse than TOS, Kirk is pretty low down, and Scotty fell through the bottom of the barrel.

However, where I disagree strongly, is the supposition that being professional means being devoid of any humour.

I don't
 
I agree that some of the relationship stuff is shoe-horned into 'on-duty' scenes for pacing. The Last Ship has the luxury of a serialisation to deal with relationships. I also agree that every iteration of Trek has 'unprofessional' moments, many of which were for humour that worked. It's impossible to lay down a red line when people's humour and tolerance and culture are set at different levels.

I also agree that Trek has always had a far more lackadaisical attitude towards discipline and professionalism than say the modern British or US forces.

The Uhura moment was very early on in the show, during a routine part of the day, and was showcasing the difference between Spock and the emotional humans, so it was an establishing scene. If Uhura had been doing the same thing during a space battle, I certainly would consider that unprofessional ijn the extreme. More generally, TOS was lamentably poor at showing its women as being professional as opposed to frivolous but times have changed. Even TOS Uhura became progressivley more professional as the show went on but if I can cite a NuTrek hierarchy of professionalism, I think Pike, Spock, and Sulu score very highly, Uhura yo-yos a bit, Chekov is a bit too frenetic, McCoy is probably no better or worse than TOS, Kirk is pretty low down, and Scotty fell through the bottom of the barrel.

However, where I disagree strongly, is the supposition that being professional means being devoid of any humour.

I don't

Personally, I think the lack of professionalism by Kirk is deliberate part of nu Trek, and is part of his character arc. So, that part does not bother me in the least.

As for Spock and Uhura, their relationship always struck me as one that varied in intensity and was going through some stress, which is tough for any couple-I know from personal experience. Add in the loss of an entire world, and the emotional baggage that can come between a couple is incredible.

Uhura keeps being called out for non-professionalism, but the only issue I see is the shuttle ride to Kronos, and that was more out of opportunity to address something that was boiling under the surface and Spock would not address.

I've been in enough stressful situations at work to know that people do not always respond perfectly or professionally. If Uhura and Spock are not professional in terms of shipboard romance, then neither are Picard and Danara from "Lessons," Paris and almost all of his relationships in VOY, Worf and Dax in DS9, among others. Oh, and probably Picard and the Bak'u woman.

Maybe nuTrek played it faster and more loose than prior shows or it is more obvious, but I don't see it as any worse.
 
This professionalism thing is most definitely a recent development. It's a child's idea of how adults are supposed to behave: super serious, cause this is super duper important adult stuff we have to do.

If a middle-manager and a lower-level coworker (like a secretary) were going out, and they started having a lover's quarrel in the middle of a serious business meeting, do you really think that's appropriate? Do you think they'd still have their jobs the next day? It's highly egotistical/narcissistic to put your own personal drama ahead of the business at hand, but of course, we're living in yet another me-decade so it just seems normal to bring your baggage into the board-room.

If a high-ranking naval officer was screwing a lower-ranking officer and, in the middle of negotiating some tense situation in the Straits of Hormuz, the lower-ranking female officer starts bitching out the officer, do you think that's appropriate? It's wrong on multiple levels, starting with raising questions about proper chain of command vs. nepotism vs. exploiting a power-imbalance.

You're damn right it's important adult stuff and that kind of behavior is selfish, irresponsible, and childish. There's a time for being responsible and a time for personal stuff. Keep your personal stuff for your off-hours.

The only reason it gets a free pass is that it's showbiz. Fantasy version of reality. And in JJ's case, he didn't want to let the films breathe enough to have real character-building moments so he has to wedge them in the middle of one long Transformers style chase-scene.

It's simply not the same as the kind of thing we saw in TOS because the pace was nowhere near as break-neck.

The reason there's as much inter-crew romance in Trek is because there doesn't seem to be anything interesting for civilians to do if they aren't a member in Starfleet. So at times it feels like everyone within Federation society is a fellow member of Starfleet and so it encourages more of an informal lifestyle overall, despite attempts here and there (like Wrath of Khan) to establish more pomp and circumstance. But in most cases, the relationships were back-story (Decker and Ilia and #1 and Troi were exes). The active relationships never ever worked, IMHO. It was better to have tension without it ever leading anywhere (like between Picard and Crusher). Having leads hookup like this is best left for cheap fan-fiction. It's too convenient and lazy.
 
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"Military professionalism" would have destroyed most TOS stories. Fuck that noise.
 
If a high-ranking naval officer was screwing a lower-ranking officer

So, this is how you sum up Spock and Uhura's relationship?!? That they're just "screwing"?!? What the fuck, man???

And, in case you answer 'no,' my next question would be, 'Then why even bring that up?'
 
"Military professionalism" would have destroyed most TOS stories. Fuck that noise.

+1

No, it's a question of degree. Many stories would have been improved with slight tweaks and some would have been greatly improved. Certainly, a lot more red shirts would be alive!

I really don't think so. I like Star Trek (the original) exactly the way it is.
 
"Military professionalism" would have destroyed most TOS stories. Fuck that noise.

+1

No, it's a question of degree. Many stories would have been improved with slight tweaks and some would have been greatly improved. Certainly, a lot more red shirts would be alive!
Nope. They're cannon fodder. They die for story reasons not because of a lack of professionalism.
 
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