The Skaro Conundrum (SPOILERS!!)

[EJA]

Spoilers for new video game City of the Daleks ahead, folks....



The game has the Eleventh Doctor and Amy tracking a Dalek fleet that invades Earth in the year 1963 (thereby creating an alternate timeline) to the Dalek homeworld of Skaro, where they explore the Dalek capital city. The Doctor comments that the last time he saw Skaro it was in ruins and the Daleks were in the midst of evacuating. At one point he and Amy come across the dead hulk of a Dalek Emperor of the type seen in The Parting of the Ways, suggesting this takes place after the Time War. The Daleks that now occupy Skaro are of the Progenitor type created in Victory of the Daleks.

The problem is though, Skaro was most definitely destroyed in Remembrance of the Daleks, when the planets' sun went supernova thanks to the Hand of Omega (In screencaps from the game, it appears Skaro still has a sun). This was well before the era of the Time War. Skaro is also depicted as still being around in the 1996 TV Movie. Is there any way this can be explained?

 

[Hermiod]

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey ?

Isn't that how everything gets explained eventually ?

Funny, Enterprise got bashed senseless for using time travel to explain any inconsistencies and never did anything like this.

 

[Checkmate]

Time travel shows aren't linear, especially when the show follows the antics of the time travelers. Doubly so when alternate timelines are being created. Since Remembrance of the Daleks takes place in 1963, and this is taking place in 1963, I really don't see a problem anyway. Just assume that Remebrance takes place later in the year if you absolutely must. But since it's an alternate timeline as you suggest, it doesn't really fucking matter.

 

[starsuperion]

Well let's follow the thinking of the new show writer.. the ever fantastic "MOFF", as we are learning that History is being rewritten.. in which case, certain beings, and whole events are being wiped from ever happening.. this can have the effect of removing certain events and time lines that the Doctor has partaken in himself. so if we go by the crackin the universe storyline, the earth's first encounter with the Daleks is from the new progenitor spawn... and not the classic universe versions..

Now if you take this a bit further, it seems to me that there is potential for the return of the Time Lords, if this crack in the universe rewrites a certain event or removes a dalek fleet from ever starting the war with Gallifrey, then maybe the time war never happens, which creates a paradox on how the new daleks came into being.. well sort of, because the new time line just incorporates the events as happening but now being in a new time line, it is considered happening in an alternate time line..

Make sense??

If not, think of the new JJ Abrams trek, how the older Spock is still in existence with the younger version.. one is from an alternate time line, and as the time lines separated it settles in and accepts the former as part of the universe..even though that younger Spock should in theory go back in time to defeat a future neo, which now may never happen..

So back to Doctor Who.. the Remembrance of the Daleks episode may have never happened, and in which case, history of the Earth was rewritten when the Doctor and Amy showed up and the time-crack showed up as they left 1963, and changed the Earth, meaning no Remembrance events, and they end up on Skaro, but a variation of the original..where the New paradigm race of Daleks now rule..

That's my take at least..whether it helps or not..

 

[HappyDayRiot]

^ I think it's been stated that the Adventures are 'episodes' 14-17 of series 5. Presumably, the crack storyline is going to be resolved in episode 13. So I don't think the crack, or its effects, are relevant to City of the Daleks.

I would agree with Checkmate's 1963 argument, if Remembrance was set in that year as well.

 

[EJA]

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey ?

Isn't that how everything gets explained eventually ?

That is really getting annoying now.

 

[starsuperion]

^ I think it's been stated that the Adventures are 'episodes' 14-17 of series 5. Presumably, the crack storyline is going to be resolved in episode 13. So I don't think the crack, or its effects, are relevant to City of the Daleks.

I would agree with Checkmate's 1963 argument, if Remembrance was set in that year as well.

the crack may be resolved by episode 13, but it's damage in rewriting history could have already been done.. let's take for example that instead of the crack doing damage after the doctor and Amy leave the earth in the new game, the crack effect happened earlier, when they appeared on the Earth in 1940's Churchill era.. and changed history.. and the new daleks were reborn..

this effect could have created a wave effect that rewrote history

Or let us consider also, that now the Daleks, Davros, and all those events in the future of earth are now deleted from history because all the Daleks were removed from reality and killed in the time war.. so the remembrance Daleks, and Davros becoming a head in a white globe never happened..

so this explains how Davros was back to his original form in the journey's end, and not just a head in a white globe.. and why there is a united Dalek force and not an imperial vs original civil war..

so even if the time crack situation is resolved by episode 13, it could still have happened much earlier..in which case rewrites history..Plus the time war could have rewrote history as well, it was never said how the time lock could effect other events..

 

[EJA]

Time travel shows aren't linear, especially when the show follows the antics of the time travelers. Doubly so when alternate timelines are being created. Since Remembrance of the Daleks takes place in 1963, and this is taking place in 1963, I really don't see a problem anyway. Just assume that Remebrance takes place later in the year if you absolutely must. But since it's an alternate timeline as you suggest, it doesn't really fucking matter.

Sorry, I think you've misunderstood what I was trying to say in my first post a bit. Yes, the MAJORITY of Remembrance takes place in 1963, but the part where the Hand of Omega flew into Skaro's sun took place sometime in the distant future, remember the Daleks in that story had travelled back in time. But the fact that a Dalek Emperor casing of Time War era design is found by Eleven and Amy strongly suggests that this is Skaro after the Time War, which shouldn't be possible, as the planet was vapourised before the War got fully underway and before the Daleks upgraded. It's not the Progenitor Daleks rebuilding their city that creates the alternate timeline, it's their invading Earth and destroying the human race in 1963.

Oh well, I suppose as much as we don't like to, we'll just have to accept John Peel's War of the Daleks hypothesis...

 

[EJA]

so this explains how Davros was back to his original form in the journey's end, and not just a head in a white globe..

Actually Davros still had a torso in Remembrance, it was just swathed in wires and cables.

 

[Starkers]

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey ?

Isn't that how everything gets explained eventually ?

Funny, Enterprise got bashed senseless for using time travel to explain any inconsistencies and never did anything like this.

Yeah but Enterprise was always so straight laced and po faced about everything, and was coming from a huge history where every little thing needed to link togeather. Meanwhile Who has always been a bit more relaxed about continuity and concentrated on the story above continuity- nothing in Who's history screams you can't do that, whilst Enterprise was busy bastardising the history behind four other series. And not even doing it in an enjoyable way.

I'm not saying I think Who shouldn't have any continuity, and I actually think it needs more than it has currently. I think eventually you could get to a point where nothing matters so there's no drama, but I'll take the fun Doctor Who over the pretty to look at but essentially joyless show that Enterprise was for the most part any day.

 

[starsuperion]

so this explains how Davros was back to his original form in the journey's end, and not just a head in a white globe..

Actually Davros still had a torso in Remembrance, it was just swathed in wires and cables.

are you sure about that?? I distinctly remember the Doctor making it a point to state that he saw that Davros removed the last vestiges of his human form.., and that implies his arm is gone as well..

also I thought the Dalek Mothership was in 1963.. and not in the distant future..

see below:

Very concerned about the presence of two Dalek factions, the Doctor decides to 'bury the past' and leaves Ace in the care of Smith. The Omega Device is awaiting burial in a local Undertakers. The Doctor leads the floating casket to a freshly dug grave. As the blind Vicar presiding over the ceremony announces, "it is over"; the Doctor corrects him saying, "'it's only just beginning". The unusual burial is watched by Mike Smith.
The Doctor, Smith, Jensen, and her assistant Allison travel to Gilmore's base where the presence of a large Dalek mothership is detected in geostationary orbit. The mothership quickly dispatches an Imperial Dalek assault squad to the transmat repaired by the Headmaster. The Doctor vetoes a proposal of military action, warning of massive reprisals from the Imperial Faction. He assembles a jamming device to interfere with the Dalek control systems.

AND THERE IS THIS:

• The Skaro Daleks of Revelation become the Renegade Daleks in this story, and the story does not explain how Davros went from being their prisoner to being the Emperor of a rival Dalek faction. In the story's novelisation, Aaronvitch states that the Daleks split into different factions across the universe as a countermeasure to the Movellan virus that attacks their casings in Resurrection of the Daleks and that the Imperial faction have since resettled on Skaro, but does not reveal how Davros became their emperor. The Doctor Who Magazine comic strip story Emperor of the Daleks (DWM #197-#202) also attempts to fill in this gap, with Davros conquering Skaro and also explaining how his remains came to be housed in the Emperor Dalek shell while the Big Finish Productions audio adventure The Juggernauts presents an alternate version of Davros's activities in the period between Revelation and Remembrance.
• The Eighth Doctor Adventures novel, War of the Daleks by John Peel, claimed that Skaro had not been destroyed after all; having discovered records of Skaro's destruction during their invasion of Earth, the Daleks moved Davros to another planet while he was in stasis after terraforming it to resemble Skaro, thus allowing the destruction of 'Skaro' to take place on their terms. The later Big Finish Productions audio play Terror Firma contradicted this and also gave an alternate account of what Davros did after the events of this story (Although it should be noted that Terra Firma features Davros suffering from multiple personality disorder that may affect his memory). As with all non-televised stories, including the comic strip, the canonicity of these stories are unclear. Furthermore, Dalek Caan mentions in "Daleks in Manhattan" (2007) that Skaro was destroyed in "a great war", leaving more doubt as to the actual moment of its destruction (Russell T Davies referred in Doctor Who Confidential to the events of Genesis of the Daleks as the first strike of the Time War, so Caan might be referring to the events of Remembrance in this context).
• Davros's threats to destroy Gallifrey and the Time Lords are referenced in the Doctor Who Annual 2006, where it is claimed that "one of the Dalek Puppet Emperors openly declared his hostility".

BASICALLY... I think that Skaro was not destroyed, and that to clean up the continuity issues it makes sense that some events now get wiped out..

but Davros was just a head in Remembrance, with some parts of his torso remaining with wires..but not enough to be like the body style he had in journey's end.. which leads me to believe some event changed the dalek history and the Movellan virus and war never happened.. thus leaving Davros and his time line to become a alternate reality to the new time line..

Maybe in a future episode from series 5 and steven Moffat, the Movellan Android race gets wiped out in prehistory by the new paradigm Daleks..this would explain a great deal. so instead of the Daleks seeking out Davros to assist them in fighting the Movellans, thus leading to Davros becoming the head in a white and golden globe like in remembrance, the Daleks seek him out to assist them in fighting Gallifrey, which is why Davros is in his original form in the end of series 4..

this leaves Skaro open and still in existence for a future degradation...

cause if the new paradigm Daleks kill the Movellans, then none of Remembrance happens..no dalek split, no civil war, no new davros, and the hand of Omega then is still on Earth..

which then fits my suspicions as to how the doctor destroys all those in the time war..

nice...

 

[EJA]

Maybe in a future episode from series 5 and steven Moffat, the Movellan Android race gets wiped out in prehistory by the new paradigm Daleks..this would explain a great deal. so instead of the Daleks seeking out Davros to assist them in fighting the Movellans, thus leading to Davros becoming the head in a white and golden globe like in remembrance, the Daleks seek him out to assist them in fighting Gallifrey, which is why Davros is in his original form in the end of series 4..

Erasing the original Davros Arc? Erm....no. Sorry.

Davros' appearance in Remembrance and his appearance in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End is problematic. Then again, we know from Revelation of the Daleks that Davros is not above building duplicates of himself as decoys, and the one on Tranquil Repose was just a disembodied head.

I still reckon Skaro's total destruction and subsequent survival is a bigger problem though. Seeing as the Daleks are time travellers, maybe they went back to a point just before Skaro's sun blew up, and teleported the planet to another part of the galaxy? Nah, seems a bit unlikely somehow...

 

[starsuperion]

Maybe in a future episode from series 5 and steven Moffat, the Movellan Android race gets wiped out in prehistory by the new paradigm Daleks..this would explain a great deal. so instead of the Daleks seeking out Davros to assist them in fighting the Movellans, thus leading to Davros becoming the head in a white and golden globe like in remembrance, the Daleks seek him out to assist them in fighting Gallifrey, which is why Davros is in his original form in the end of series 4..

Erasing the original Davros Arc? Erm....no. Sorry.

Davros' appearance in Remembrance and his appearance in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End is problematic. Then again, we know from Revelation of the Daleks that Davros is not above building duplicates of himself as decoys, and the one on Tranquil Repose was just a disembodied head.

I still reckon Skaro's total destruction and subsequent survival is a bigger problem though. Seeing as the Daleks are time travellers, maybe they went back to a point just before Skaro's sun blew up, and teleported the planet to another part of the galaxy? Nah, seems a bit unlikely somehow...

I still think that if they did something to change the Movellan events, the time line changes, and makes what happens in journey's end more plausible.. the Movellan event was a huge deal to the Daleks, as it fractured their forces and created multiple factions which then sought to annihilate the other factions claiming themselves as the original and best version..

if the Movellan War time line is erased or modified, then Skaro survives.. and Remembrance never happens..the motivations for finding Davros on Skaro's Ruins are now not there... or they get Davros (at which point some time meddling occurs), and somehow they defeat the Movellans.. but Davros never ends up needing the hand of Omega, and there is no fractured Dalek civil war..No imperium.. no need to split off into different factions because of the Movellan virus..

thus again, Remembrance never happens, and Skaro survives..

 

[Starkers]

Or maybe the Daleks found a new planet and just called it Skaro?

 

[EJA]

Maybe in a future episode from series 5 and steven Moffat, the Movellan Android race gets wiped out in prehistory by the new paradigm Daleks..this would explain a great deal. so instead of the Daleks seeking out Davros to assist them in fighting the Movellans, thus leading to Davros becoming the head in a white and golden globe like in remembrance, the Daleks seek him out to assist them in fighting Gallifrey, which is why Davros is in his original form in the end of series 4..

Erasing the original Davros Arc? Erm....no. Sorry.

Davros' appearance in Remembrance and his appearance in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End is problematic. Then again, we know from Revelation of the Daleks that Davros is not above building duplicates of himself as decoys, and the one on Tranquil Repose was just a disembodied head.

I still reckon Skaro's total destruction and subsequent survival is a bigger problem though. Seeing as the Daleks are time travellers, maybe they went back to a point just before Skaro's sun blew up, and teleported the planet to another part of the galaxy? Nah, seems a bit unlikely somehow...

I still think that if they did something to change the Movellan events, the time line changes, and makes what happens in journey's end more plausible.. the Movellan event was a huge deal to the Daleks, as it fractured their forces and created multiple factions which then sought to annihilate the other factions claiming themselves as the original and best version..

if the Movellan War time line is erased or modified, then Skaro survives.. and Remembrance never happens..the motivations for finding Davros on Skaro's Ruins are now not there... or they get Davros (at which point some time meddling occurs), and somehow they defeat the Movellans.. but Davros never ends up needing the hand of Omega, and there is no fractured Dalek civil war..No imperium.. no need to split off into different factions because of the Movellan virus..

thus again, Remembrance never happens, and Skaro survives..

Clever, but I just dislike the idea of negating so many stories. I'd accept John Peel's hypothesis, i.e. multiple planets called Skaro, if it wasn't so flawed.

 

[EJA]

Or maybe the Daleks found a new planet and just called it Skaro?

Hmmm. I have to admit, I've considered that option too. But why settle on another radioactive wasteland when they could surely find somewhere better?

 

[starsuperion]

Or maybe the Daleks found a new planet and just called it Skaro?

Hmmm. I have to admit, I've considered that option too. But why settle on another radioactive wasteland when they could surely find somewhere better?

Don't the Kaleds at some point take back Skaro, or return there to take it back? I thought they had skaro in their control during the 3rd doctor's adventures in the Planet of the Daleks??

Skaro is a confusing subject indeed..

 

[Hermiod]

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey ?

Isn't that how everything gets explained eventually ?

Funny, Enterprise got bashed senseless for using time travel to explain any inconsistencies and never did anything like this.

Yeah but Enterprise was always so straight laced and po faced about everything, and was coming from a huge history where every little thing needed to link togeather. Meanwhile Who has always been a bit more relaxed about continuity and concentrated on the story above continuity- nothing in Who's history screams you can't do that, whilst Enterprise was busy bastardising the history behind four other series. And not even doing it in an enjoyable way.

I'm not saying I think Who shouldn't have any continuity, and I actually think it needs more than it has currently. I think eventually you could get to a point where nothing matters so there's no drama, but I'll take the fun Doctor Who over the pretty to look at but essentially joyless show that Enterprise was for the most part any day.

I'm perfectly happy for Doctor Who to be the show it wants to be. If it wants to say that time travel is complicated then that's how it should be, though I'd rather that they come up with some basic unbreakable rules.

However, Enterprise was often accused of using the Temporal Cold War to explain discontinuities that didn't exist. Most of the big continuity "breaches" were based in fanon.

 

[Starkers]

Wibbly wobbly timey wimey ?

Isn't that how everything gets explained eventually ?

Funny, Enterprise got bashed senseless for using time travel to explain any inconsistencies and never did anything like this.

Yeah but Enterprise was always so straight laced and po faced about everything, and was coming from a huge history where every little thing needed to link togeather. Meanwhile Who has always been a bit more relaxed about continuity and concentrated on the story above continuity- nothing in Who's history screams you can't do that, whilst Enterprise was busy bastardising the history behind four other series. And not even doing it in an enjoyable way.

I'm not saying I think Who shouldn't have any continuity, and I actually think it needs more than it has currently. I think eventually you could get to a point where nothing matters so there's no drama, but I'll take the fun Doctor Who over the pretty to look at but essentially joyless show that Enterprise was for the most part any day.

I'm perfectly happy for Doctor Who to be the show it wants to be. If it wants to say that time travel is complicated then that's how it should be, though I'd rather that they come up with some basic unbreakable rules.

However, Enterprise was often accused of using the Temporal Cold War to explain discontinuities that didn't exist. Most of the big continuity "breaches" were based in fanon.

Interestingly I'd go so far as to say that Enterprise should have used the Temporal Cold War to explain discrepencies. In retrospect they could have gone down the route JJ went with the movie and basically imply that Archer's timeline was different. By sticking with the notion that it was completely the same timeline as the one we had seen with Kirk, Picard, Sisko and Janeway in it they left them selves open to be bashed for continuity breeches (real or imagined).

Speaking purely from my own perspective, I probably would have forgiven discontinuity if I'd found the show more appealing in the first place.

 

[EJA]

Or maybe the Daleks found a new planet and just called it Skaro?

Hmmm. I have to admit, I've considered that option too. But why settle on another radioactive wasteland when they could surely find somewhere better?

Don't the Kaleds at some point take back Skaro, or return there to take it back? I thought they had skaro in their control during the 3rd doctor's adventures in the Planet of the Daleks??

No, in Planet of the Daleks it's strongly implied that the Thals are in control of Skaro at the time that story is set.