The Siege of AR-558, Infantry Combat of the 24th Century

[Dingo]

I just watched The Siege of AR558 over again and I have to say it's one of my favorite season seven episodes for many reasons.

One is the change in perspective. It's showing war pretty much raw and up close and personal in a way that exploding starships and the like never could. (A close runner up for this in my book is The Way of the Warrior of Season 4). Nor the Battle to the Strong was also up there on my list of good episodes from that perspective, despite its focus on Jake and Bashir.

Second was the focus on characters that weren't involved in heavy combat such as Quark and Ezri. And the characters of Reese, Kellin, and Vargas were a study in and of themselves. Reese as the man who's had to shed a lot of humanity to survive the brutal fighting on AR558. Vargas the tough guy who's cracking somewhat imperceptibly. And Kellin the decent guy.

As a man who's soon to join the US Army after his hitch with the US Navy expires in a year, it was an especially poignant episode for me.

What are you guys' opinions on this episode?

 

[CorporalClegg]

It's one of my favorites. Yes, it's really, really cliched, but it's told well. The character moments are very well done. And it's got great guest starts: Kilpatrick and of course the Moo-Man.

 

[Dingo]

The story might have had elements ripped from various war movies, yes, but I'd hardly consider it a cliche. It definitely was a nice contrast to the relatively cleaner space battles of the last four seasons of DS9 and I thought that this episode, together with The Way of the Warrior and especially Nor the Battle to the Strong were great contrasts. I wish one or two more such episodes were featured in the Dominion War arc for to drive home that gritty realism of war message.

 

[Navaros]

"Siege" is definitely another one of DS9's masterpiece episodes.

My favorite parts are how initially the Sisko says isn't even going to stay but then he does and says "There is only one order. We hold". Then at the end he says "We held" in a very depressed way like it hardly even matters. Then when Worf says "This is a great victory" he is still depressed and says "It cost enough." Absolutely brilliant.

Quark's comments dissing mankind = frickin' amazing!

Rom's performance of "The lady is a scamp" = extremely well-done.

...And it's one of the very few episodes of modern Trek where the background music is actually memorable & epic.

 

[Praetor]

I think Quark's moments in this episode may be my favorite, if only for the level of dimensionality they gave to the character.

The whole episode is excellent, though.

 

[Myasishchev]

Didn't care for it, other than the Quark bits. It's cliched, and not fully sensible.

The Jem'Hadar didn't think to bring a single armored vehicle? Or aircraft? Is this 1914?

 

[mirandafave]

I think this episode is especially brilliant for how it really brought the war home. No uber VFX space battles to wow the audience. Just a gritty war story that did indeed cost a lot and Sisko's tone at the end, when it seems it was all for nothing, is poignant and help add real melanchonaly to the Dominion War.
It showed war, no matter if for a just cause, cost lives; even those who surivive end up sacrificing parts of themsleves in more ways than one. For this reason alone it deserves recognition.
Apart from that, the focus on certain characters in a different context is also revealing and added new dimensions to them as stated by other posters above.
Yes there are certain holes as to why this particular front had to fought in the trenches, but I didn't think so at the time of viewing and it helped to convey the comparison to WW1 trenches and the similarity of a war people thought was only going to last a few months at best that stretched to years.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I thought it was unrealistic within the confines of the universe they created.

A Starfleet ground war would have personal shields (seen them), phasers that can stop an approaching force on wide angle settings (seen them), and many other things that, really, would make a ground war pretty obsolete.

I just couldn't wrap my head around the logistics of the episode. Seems like they just wanted the typical war episode for no other reason than to have one, and forced the circumstances in the story to get one in a way that wasn't true to the universe Trek had created.

 

[psikeyhackr]

I thought it was unrealistic within the confines of the universe they created.

Yep! That is the trouble with television drama and SCIENCE fiction.

They could make a remote control phaser with a holographic generator so it would look like a rock with a shield to protect itself.

Today the army could make miniature robot tanks today with built in machine guns. I wonder to what extent the military does not want to use technology in war because it would not be macho.

I liked the episode but I have to not think about what would really make sense with that level of technology.

psik

 

[Dingo]

I liked the episode but I have to not think about what would really make sense with that level of technology.

War being inherently destructive, perhaps much of the technology in question was destroyed over time or the harsh conditions of AR558 rendered it unusable. I'm under the impression that 24th Century tech requires maintenance and maybe due to the strain of constant attack, maintenance was spotty and irregular.

The Jem'Hadar didn't think to bring a single armored vehicle? Or aircraft? Is this 1914?

Perhaps the Defiant disrupted their ability to beam these vehicles down. Or the Houdinis destroyed what vehicles the Jem'Hadar had. Or the terrain was not conducive to armored vehicles. Perhaps the ravine was too narrow for vehicles to traverse.

 

[kv1at3485]

I thought it was unrealistic within the confines of the universe they created.

Yep! That is the trouble with television drama and SCIENCE fiction.

Which is why Star Trek is tech fantasy. Logic is not required there.

 

[mirandafave]

Well the lack of logic and tech solutions is what allows the episode to be a war story and to my mind the series needed such an episode if a major storyline such as the Dominion War dominated several seasons.

 

[MyCylon]

I love this episode. I think it's very powerful. It's probably questionable that they'd wage war like that in the Trek 'day and age' but I think that's beyond the point.

AR really makes a statement about how war is hell and there are no heroes, just people who live or die. And it helps make DS9's entire war arc feel a lot more genuine and honest, on some level. It's not just about watching spaceships blow up which will always be a lot easier to stomache than seeing the suffering close up.

I think a very clever move was to include Quark in all of this and make Nog the one who suffers most on the DS9 crew. It allowed for some great comments on war as well as Starfleet and the Federation. Plus (in terms of Nog) it lead to the also excellent It's Only a Paper Moon.

 

[jamestyler]

I just couldn't wrap my head around the logistics of the episode. Seems like they just wanted the typical war episode for no other reason than to have one, and forced the circumstances in the story to get one in a way that wasn't true to the universe Trek had created.

While on one hand it is the Zulu story set in a different time, on the other Starfleet is shwn to be in a pretty weak stage here. That unit had a lack of supplies and manpower and were shown at their weakest point.

They could have started there with a shed load of gear and lost as much technology as they had soldiers.

As for the opposition, with the way they're designed/programmed, why would they bother with a load of technology when they get a thrill from the battle? Besides both sides likely had counter measures in place for any added technology leaving only good old fashioned combat left at their disposal.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

As for the opposition, with the way they're designed/programmed, why would they bother with a load of technology when they get a thrill from the battle?

Because, victory isn't the thrill. As the opposition is so fond of saying, victory is LIFE. Why risk that?

 

[psikeyhackr]

I thought it was unrealistic within the confines of the universe they created.

Yep! That is the trouble with television drama and SCIENCE fiction.

Which is why Star Trek is tech fantasy. Logic is not required there.

No, it has to get as bad as Star Wars before I start calling it fantasy. The seriousness of the drama in that episode takes it out of the fantasy category. I have seen Star Trek described as RUBBERY. I think that is partly the result of having a lot of different writers create episodes. Their knowledge and rigor about science and tech is going to vary.

I don't buy the high tech equipment not being rugged argument either. We are just making lots of high tech but fragile consumer crap today because so many people are dumb enough to buy it.

psik

 

[Navaros]

I agree that "Siege" is not realistic in it's depiction of war in that time. However, I don't see how that can be singled out, since Trek does that all the time in many other ways. Ie: time-travel is even more ludicrous of a fantasy, yet it seems most Trek fans love time-travel episodes and don't give Trek any flack for that being unrealistic.

 

[Dingo]

I don't buy the high tech equipment not being rugged argument either. We are just making lots of high tech but fragile consumer crap today because so many people are dumb enough to buy it.

Well, not all technology adapts to harsh environments, to say nothing of combat zones. We've had new technology here in Iraq have bugs all the time.

 

[Praetor]

"There will be an answer, let it be..."

Seriously, it's an enjoyable episode. Just suspend disbelief, sit back, and relax.

 

[Anwar]

The real reason we didn't see any armored vehicles or fighters is because of 1) budget and 2) Honestly, after a while any designs they come up with for futuristic tanks and fighters would look dated and silly. But ground infantry combat is going to resonate with the audience more effectively.