The Shield

[Griever]

I don't think the show is promoting an ends justify the means idea at all. I think the show is daming Vic, just as The Sopranos damned Tony. In the end, I'll be really surprised if Vic doesn't have to atone for his actions because what he does IS bad and I've always felt that the show says that.

I've always thought that Dutch and Vic were opposites. Dutch is able to do just as much, if not more, than Vic while still operating inside the law.

Not saying it promotes it. Dutch and Claudette are exemplary officers, but sometimes they can't win and when they can't, sometimes Vic has to go outside the law to get the win.

So no, it doesn't promote it, but situations like that most likely influence some perceptions of how far the government should go for justice.

 

[sidious618]

Not saying it promotes it. Dutch and Claudette are exemplary officers, but sometimes they can't win and when they can't, sometimes Vic has to go outside the law to get the win.

So no, it doesn't promote it, but situations like that most likely influence some perceptions of how far the government should go for justice.

I think it shows both sides. By Shawn Ryans own admission he doesn't like to take sides. He just puts out the material and lets the audience decide.


Spoilers...



But when you look at what Vic has done you have to consider if he's actually causing even more trouble. How many people wouldn't have died if he didn't steal from the money train? How many people would he have been able to help if he stayed on the right side of the law and didn't have to waste time cleaning up his messes?

Dutch is shown to crack a case in almost every episode but Vic more often than not just causes more trouble.

For me, it was the episode where Vic tortured the wrong guy that solidified it for me that the show was slowly turning on him. That was a brutal episode. The pilot also has some key ideas in it. Remember when Claudette says, "Most people are happy to look the other way. For them it doesn't matter if an hispanic or a black gets beaten up so long as they can sleep soundly."

I think the audience likes Vic but damns him at the same time. Similar to The Sopranos, The Shield makes you like Vic but then has him do something immoral and you have to rejudge the whole situation.

The whole show raises a lot of questions. This is certainly an interesting discussion.

 

[Goliath]

I think the audience likes Vic but damns him at the same time. Similar to The Sopranos, The Shield makes you like Vic but then has him do something immoral and you have to rejudge the whole situation.

I think Vic has always been an anti-hero. The audience is meant to sympathize with him, even if it doesn't always sympathize with what he does. It goes about generating this sympathy in three ways:

First, by making Vic a personable, likeable guy.

Second, by giving him some admirable characteristics, e.g. his love for his kids.

Third, by making him so crafty and resourceful. People admire excellence of any kind--even if it's excellence in committing crimes.

This becomes clear if you watch his cat-and-mouse game with Kavanaugh. In the extras for the Season 5 DVD set, Forrest Whitaker talks about being mystified that his character was perceived as a villain. "I thought I was the good guy," he says. And, technically, he was.

But he was also personally unlikeable; did not have the admirable characteristics that Vic has; and was just not as crafty as Vic. He was also coming down hard on the most innocent member of the Strike Team, Lem, which made his actions seem unjust.

And there's also what we might call the "Hitchcock Factor." Alfred Hitchcock thought that everybody has something to hide, and as a consequence, can be made to sympathize with a character who is trying to hide some wrongdoing.

So, while we may recognize, in our heads, that Kavanaugh is in the right, in our hearts, we're rooting for Vic. Then, in the last episode of Season Five, we're brought up short, and forced to think some more about this.

 

[Angel4576]

Re Dutch,

I've always thought that there's been a sinister(ish) undertone to his character. Must admit it's been a while since I've seen the previous seasons but doesn't he have a fascination with killing/serial killing? Then there was the laptop that went missing with all the kiddy porn on it that he'd been 'researching'.

 

[Goliath]

Re Dutch,

I've always thought that there's been a sinister(ish) undertone to his character. Must admit it's been a while since I've seen the previous seasons but doesn't he have a fascination with killing/serial killing?

Indeed. After a long interview with the 'cuddler rapist,' he went home, lured a stray cat to his doorstep, and strangled it, just to see what it would be like to kill something.

Then there was the laptop that went missing with all the kiddy porn on it that he'd been 'researching'.

I'm pretty sure that really was just research.

Not even Dutch would be clueless enough to surf kiddie porn on an office laptop.

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

Oh--if anybody's ever wondered what The Shield would be like if it took place in the Star Trek universe--see here.

I like that one, I'd like to see some sort of fan flick on youtube based on that idea

Good points about Dutch. Dutch has always shown to be a cable character, but Vic never gives him or gave him any respect. He always worked well with Claudette, and now after 6 seasons Dutch has proven to be a formidible detective

Vic did give him a bit of respect for outwitting that smart arse murderer in the interview room, but don't think he'd ever see him that way in the street.

I honestly don't know how I'd like things to end for Vic, he is a bad guy after all, how long can he pull off what he does for?

 

[Tomato]

the problem I had with Kav. Is to a certain extend what I have problems with the shield. The writers take the easy way out just to create conflict or situations.

They just made him into a anti-villian, the easiest way they knew how. Have him on the right side of the law and just have him do despicable things.

 

[sidious618]

I think the audience likes Vic but damns him at the same time. Similar to The Sopranos, The Shield makes you like Vic but then has him do something immoral and you have to rejudge the whole situation.

I think Vic has always been an anti-hero. The audience is meant to sympathize with him, even if it doesn't always sympathize with what he does. It goes about generating this sympathy in three ways:

First, by making Vic a personable, likeable guy.

Second, by giving him some admirable characteristics, e.g. his love for his kids.

Third, by making him so crafty and resourceful. People admire excellence of any kind--even if it's excellence in committing crimes.

This becomes clear if you watch his cat-and-mouse game with Kavanaugh. In the extras for the Season 5 DVD set, Forrest Whitaker talks about being mystified that his character was perceived as a villain. "I thought I was the good guy," he says. And, technically, he was.

But he was also personally unlikeable; did not have the admirable characteristics that Vic has; and was just not as crafty as Vic. He was also coming down hard on the most innocent member of the Strike Team, Lem, which made his actions seem unjust.

And there's also what we might call the "Hitchcock Factor." Alfred Hitchcock thought that everybody has something to hide, and as a consequence, can be made to sympathize with a character who is trying to hide some wrongdoing.

So, while we may recognize, in our heads, that Kavanaugh is in the right, in our hearts, we're rooting for Vic. Then, in the last episode of Season Five, we're brought up short, and forced to think some more about this.

It's realistic, I'd imagine, because cops who are corrupt probably do have likable qualities to them. The show takes away the black and white view of life which is a fascinating, and brave, thing to do.

I agree Re: Kavanaugh. We really didn't like him but in the season finale when he goes, "Are you happy now?" to Vic we realize maybe it was Vic's fault.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Just one question: are the first few episodes of S1 representative of the series' quality as a whole?

 

[Star Wolf]

Just one question: are the first few episodes of S1 representative of the series' quality as a whole?

The first couple seem more like pilots. The Shield has this weird vibe that its about LAPD's Rampart CRASH unit turned into Farmington's Strike team, but its not. The Farm almost seems to operate as an independent police department outside of the city but then its not. One thing I noticed they changed out of LAPD uniforms to generic cop suits. Its sort of like Acopolypse Now as he went down the river things get stranger and stranger.

 

[sidious618]

Just one question: are the first few episodes of S1 representative of the series' quality as a whole?

Not really, no. The pilot is excellent but it goes up and down for a few episodes. I think once you get to "Dragonchasers" you'll get hooked.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Just one question: are the first few episodes of S1 representative of the series' quality as a whole?

Not really, no. The pilot is excellent but it goes up and down for a few episodes. I think once you get to "Dragonchasers" you'll get hooked.

Thanks - is it serialized in the sense that you must watch every single episode or is it okay to skip a few?

 

[Surefire]

Re Dutch,

I've always thought that there's been a sinister(ish) undertone to his character. Must admit it's been a while since I've seen the previous seasons but doesn't he have a fascination with killing/serial killing? Then there was the laptop that went missing with all the kiddy porn on it that he'd been 'researching'.

Agree, sinister and creepy.

Killing the cat with his bare hands, having kiddy porn on his laptop (I don't buy the research BS), etc.

I think Dutch may show more demons before the show ends.

 

[Surefire]

Just one question: are the first few episodes of S1 representative of the series' quality as a whole?

Not really, no. The pilot is excellent but it goes up and down for a few episodes. I think once you get to "Dragonchasers" you'll get hooked.

Thanks - is it serialized in the sense that you must watch every single episode or is it okay to skip a few?

It's best to watch every single one. Even if they are not related, the character development is so great in the series that some aspects can be missed if you skip around.

 

[sidious618]

Just one question: are the first few episodes of S1 representative of the series' quality as a whole?

Not really, no. The pilot is excellent but it goes up and down for a few episodes. I think once you get to "Dragonchasers" you'll get hooked.

Thanks - is it serialized in the sense that you must watch every single episode or is it okay to skip a few?

Don't skip. You'll regret it because things pop up all the time.

 

[Star Wolf]

Just one question: are the first few episodes of S1 representative of the series' quality as a whole?

Not really, no. The pilot is excellent but it goes up and down for a few episodes. I think once you get to 'Dragonchasers' you'll get hooked.

Thanks - is it serialized in the sense that you must watch every single episode or is it okay to skip a few?

I'll disagree with the others on this point. Each season is a major arc, sort of like DS9s war years. The shows are stand alone and the characters recap essential plot points

 

[Navaros]

Thanks - is it serialized in the sense that you must watch every single episode or is it okay to skip a few?

I'll disagree with the others on this point. Each season is a major arc, sort of like DS9s war years. The shows are stand alone and the characters recap essential plot points

I disagree with this. No way the Shield's shows are stand alone. The Shield is way, way, way more serialized than DS9 is. Can't really skip any episodes without missing parts of that serialization.

 

[Frontier]

I think Vic is going to be the only one left standing when all is said and done. He's ended up as such so often, it's hard to believe he would fall now. We'll see. Can't wait.

 

[Surefire]

I think Vic is going to be the only one left standing when all is said and done. He's ended up as such so often, it's hard to believe he would fall now. We'll see. Can't wait.

I hope Shane gets what is coming to him. He is the biggest jerk on the strike team, and one of the biggest jerks on the show (Azeveda probably gets the nod at being the biggest jerk).

 

[DWMarch]

FWIW, I don't think Vic is going to die at the end of the show. I have a feeling he'll end up crippled, unable to do his job or protect his family. I can picture his wife leaving him and him having to move into some crappy crack neighborhood with the show's final moment being some bangers knocking his door down while he sits in a wheelchair with a 12 gauge.

It's not enough for him to die. He needs to suffer to atone for all the suffering he has brought to those around him. I think putting Vic in a wheelchair would bring him a level of suffering he has never dealt with before. In fact, has he ever been hurt really badly on the show physically? I know he got shot once but I can't remember him being out of comission due to injury.

Acevada told Kavanaugh that Vic makes his own fate. I think if Vic was disabled, he'd lose his ability to do that and that would be a much worse punishment for him than death.