The SCOTUS hands Pr0n lovers a huge victory

[John Picard]

Unlikely, the truth still stands that many of you are not even willing to admit the damage it does to your selves. All that pornography does is put the body and its passions at the forefront and makes you subject to those desires. I still say what I said before. Your refusal to quit it even for a time is proof enough that is thing to be avoided.

I hope that someday this will not be the case.

By the way, I feel like I should repeat something I said in a previous thread. I do not mean to sound like I think I am perfect, everyone has problems and weaknesses. Everyone struggles with something.

Based on your posts, you're the typical religious zealot who is too wrapped up in telling everyone else what they're doing wrong, rather than worrying about your own life. I enjoy drinking alcohol and laugh at those who turn their noses up at me for doing so. I also like to drive fast on the Interstate and eat "bad foods". Checking out naked chicks is also enjoyable. Now, unlike what you think, I don't drive drunk, I'm not a sex offender, and I treat my fellow man with kindness that you and your religious ilk most likely do not. Rather than pointing out the speck in my eye, worry about the log in yours

 

[Augustus]

Unlikely, the truth still stands that many of you are not even willing to admit the damage it does to your selves. All that pornography does is put the body and its passions at the forefront and makes you subject to those desires. I still say what I said before. Your refusal to quit it even for a time is proof enough that is thing to be avoided.

I hope that someday this will not be the case.

By the way, I feel like I should repeat something I said in a previous thread. I do not mean to sound like I think I am perfect, everyone has problems and weaknesses. Everyone struggles with something.

Based on your posts, you're the typical religious zealot who is too wrapped up in telling everyone else what they're doing wrong, rather than worrying about your own life. I enjoy drinking alcohol and laugh at those who turn their noses up at me for doing so. I also like to drive fast on the Interstate and eat "bad foods". Checking out naked chicks is also enjoyable. Now, unlike what you think, I don't drive drunk, I'm not a sex offender, and I treat my fellow man with kindness that you and your religious ilk most likely do not. Rather than pointing out the speck in my eye, worry about the log in yours

This reaction is exactly why I said what I said. NO ONE is perfect, everyone struggles, everyone does something wrong. And everyone certainly includes me.

by the way, very good link in your signature! I like Dave Ramsey

 

[Pingfah]

Unlikely, the truth still stands that many of you are not even willing to admit the damage it does to your selves. All that pornography does is put the body and its passions at the forefront and makes you subject to those desires. I still say what I said before. Your refusal to quit it even for a time is proof enough that is thing to be avoided.

I hope that someday this will not be the case.

Who on earth are you talking to??

This is pure arrogance and nothing else, you don't know this about anybody here. You don't know how or why they use pornography, you don't know if it's a mutual thing with their spouses, you don't know what sort of pornography they are watching. It's not a "thing" like heroin, a single substance one can be addicted to, what utter naivety

All you are doing is making sweeping generalisations and completely unfounded judgements about the attitudes and reasonings of complete strangers. I ask you for a logical explanation of WHY porn is harmful or wrong without falling back on hyperbole like "perversion" and you post an article you just googled and admit you haven't even read, and you expect anything you say to be taken seriously??

What a joke.

 

[FordSVT]

^That last point deserves highlighting.

Half the people on the internet form their opinions and frame their comments around articles they haven't read beyond the headline.

You want "dangerous", Augustus? That is dangerous.

 

[Augustus]

Well I apologize, but as I already said, I have debated this topic to death a few days ago and I didn't feel like nor did I have the time to look up a ton of stuff again. Especially since many of the same people who are in this thread were in those threads.
So I just googled it and posted, trying not to get involved in another fight.

But this topic seems to be too hot to touch.

 

[John Picard]

Well I apologize, but as I already said, I have debated this topic to death a few days ago and I didn't feel like nor did I have the time to look up a ton of stuff again. Especially since many of the same people who are in this thread were in those threads.
So I just googled it and posted, trying not to get involved in another fight.

But this topic seems to be too hot to touch.

And yet your judgmental posts say otherwise.

 

[Pingfah]

Well I apologize, but as I already said, I have debated this topic to death a few days ago and I didn't feel like nor did I have the time to look up a ton of stuff again. Especially since many of the same people who are in this thread were in those threads.
So I just googled it and posted, trying not to get involved in another fight.

But this topic seems to be too hot to touch.

But i've given you an example of pornography use that harms neither the performer nor the viewer earlier on, and asked for a logical explanation of why it is still "wrong" and all you can come up with is "perversion".

I am asking you for a logical explanation of why it is perverted, and why that is wrong, and you cannot come up with anything, you even admit that the bible says nothing about it, yet still label it a perversion against religion, whatever that means.

Do you need to look up a load of stuff to tell me why murder is immoral? No, I don't think so it's patently obvious to anyone with 2 braincells to rub together why it is wrong and we don't need god to tell us either. So why is it so hard for you to explain to me in objective terms what is immoral about the example I provided of a married couple using homemade porn for mutual enjoyment? What if I simplify it even further for you and say that the porn contains only the married couple themselves?

It's not too hot to touch, it's just that you can't answer the question.

 

[Augustus]

the married couple themselves? That is a little odd. but saying that is wrong would be kind of like saying that seeing yourself in the mirror naked is wrong.

All of you will hate what I am about to say, but here it is.

I think I should explain where I am coming from on this topic. I am very active in my church. A part of worthiness to participate in ordinances and such is to be moral, part of which is to be free from viewing pornography.

Much of my understanding of the subject comes from these teachings and from personal experiences. The teachings state that personal purity comes from saving sexual relationships for marriage and even then marriage is not a pass to do whatever a perverted mind can imagine. So while pornography shouldn't be illegal, it does not help anyone find happiness because it is not based on correct principles. And you are all thinking "correct principles according to me". But think for a moment on what you can and cannot build a society on. If we all were to start over from scratch somewhere far far away from earth with little resources, I think we would agree that selfishness, self-centeredness, and lack of discipline would be things that we would not want to build our society on. But these are the kinds of feelings pornography fosters. It doesn't do anything for anyone but yourself. It satisfies YOUR lusts, YOUR desires as if those were the most important. As I said in another thread, in the end, doing the right thing often comes down to not doing what we want to do, and not following our first impulse, which is exactly the opposite of what pornography teaches.

I have seen a few of my friends get involved in pornography, one of my brothers has a very strong addiction that is ruining his marriage. One of my non-religious friends from high school who used to look at pornography all the time, said that he had a hard time looking at a woman as anything other than a vehicle for his sexual appetites. Another friend broke up with his girlfriend because she wouldn't act out what he had seen on some pornographic movie. I could relate other experiences. These are not extreme circumstances, they are pretty common, which is why I said earlier that I was curious if any of you that viewed pornography would be willing to "quit" for awhile to prove me wrong. I have no takers yet.

So while you may have the situation above where a married couple uses pornography together and both enjoy it, the truth is, pornography is not a happy uniting thing that brings couples and people together and helps them have a healthy sexual relationship. How can it be? How is looking at other naked women going to help my love my wife? How is viewing porno going to help me to treat the women around me with respect and dignity in action and thought? Sure, there are isolated incidents where people will say that pornography does no harm and their spouse is fine with it.

But that is the exception and not the unfortunate rule. The truth is it is a perversion. Not punishable by law, unless children are involved. And I think we would all agree that child pornography is most distasteful and should be punishable in most circumstances. Nevertheless a perversion, which if we are honest in a desire to do what it right and respect others, one that we would avoid.

 

[Pingfah]

You are still treating pornography as a product, it is not, it is a concept with many different attributes.

You still haven't defined perversion in objective terms.

You still make huge leaps of logic about the effects pornography has on people and society without providing any substantive evidence to support your claims. Has it occurred to you that your friend who is incapable of seeing women without objectifying them is perhaps just a sexist asshole who blames his problems on pornography?

You also make unfounded assumptions on what constitutes a healthy sexual relationship between two consenting adults.

You are incapable of separating subjective opinion from objective fact.

 

[Amaris]

Unlikely, the truth still stands that many of you are not even willing to admit the damage it does to your selves. All that pornography does is put the body and its passions at the forefront and makes you subject to those desires. I still say what I said before. Your refusal to quit it even for a time is proof enough that is thing to be avoided.

I hope that someday this will not be the case.

By the way, I feel like I should repeat something I said in a previous thread. I do not mean to sound like I think I am perfect, everyone has problems and weaknesses. Everyone struggles with something.

Based on your posts, you're the typical religious zealot who is too wrapped up in telling everyone else what they're doing wrong, rather than worrying about your own life. I enjoy drinking alcohol and laugh at those who turn their noses up at me for doing so. I also like to drive fast on the Interstate and eat "bad foods". Checking out naked chicks is also enjoyable. Now, unlike what you think, I don't drive drunk, I'm not a sex offender, and I treat my fellow man with kindness that you and your religious ilk most likely do not. Rather than pointing out the speck in my eye, worry about the log in yours

Wow. We're going to have to have a TrekBBS party at your house.


J.

 

[John Picard]

Unlikely, the truth still stands that many of you are not even willing to admit the damage it does to your selves. All that pornography does is put the body and its passions at the forefront and makes you subject to those desires. I still say what I said before. Your refusal to quit it even for a time is proof enough that is thing to be avoided.

I hope that someday this will not be the case.

By the way, I feel like I should repeat something I said in a previous thread. I do not mean to sound like I think I am perfect, everyone has problems and weaknesses. Everyone struggles with something.

Based on your posts, you're the typical religious zealot who is too wrapped up in telling everyone else what they're doing wrong, rather than worrying about your own life. I enjoy drinking alcohol and laugh at those who turn their noses up at me for doing so. I also like to drive fast on the Interstate and eat "bad foods". Checking out naked chicks is also enjoyable. Now, unlike what you think, I don't drive drunk, I'm not a sex offender, and I treat my fellow man with kindness that you and your religious ilk most likely do not. Rather than pointing out the speck in my eye, worry about the log in yours

Wow. We're going to have to have a TrekBBS party at your house.


J.

I have cigars too! Come on over.

 

[Canadave]

the married couple themselves? That is a little odd. but saying that is wrong would be kind of like saying that seeing yourself in the mirror naked is wrong.

All of you will hate what I am about to say, but here it is.

I think I should explain where I am coming from on this topic. I am very active in my church. A part of worthiness to participate in ordinances and such is to be moral, part of which is to be free from viewing pornography.

Much of my understanding of the subject comes from these teachings and from personal experiences. The teachings state that personal purity comes from saving sexual relationships for marriage and even then marriage is not a pass to do whatever a perverted mind can imagine. So while pornography shouldn't be illegal, it does not help anyone find happiness because it is not based on correct principles. And you are all thinking "correct principles according to me". But think for a moment on what you can and cannot build a society on. If we all were to start over from scratch somewhere far far away from earth with little resources, I think we would agree that selfishness, self-centeredness, and lack of discipline would be things that we would not want to build our society on. But these are the kinds of feelings pornography fosters. It doesn't do anything for anyone but yourself. It satisfies YOUR lusts, YOUR desires as if those were the most important. As I said in another thread, in the end, doing the right thing often comes down to not doing what we want to do, and not following our first impulse, which is exactly the opposite of what pornography teaches.

So, let's say you're sitting at home and you're bored. You have nothing that you need to do for the next couple of hours, and nowhere you need to be. What do you do? Watch a movie? Play a video game? Read a book? Now, any one of those or similar activities are doing what, entertaining you, right? Which, by your own logic, is doing nothing but satisfy YOUR desire for entertainment, and thus would be "wrong". There's nothing wrong with occasionally being selfish and focusing your own desires, that's just part of being human. The thing is, you just have to know where to draw the line, which I think nearly everyone does.

I have seen a few of my friends get involved in pornography, one of my brothers has a very strong addiction that is ruining his marriage. One of my non-religious friends from high school who used to look at pornography all the time, said that he had a hard time looking at a woman as anything other than a vehicle for his sexual appetites. Another friend broke up with his girlfriend because she wouldn't act out what he had seen on some pornographic movie. I could relate other experiences. These are not extreme circumstances, they are pretty common, which is why I said earlier that I was curious if any of you that viewed pornography would be willing to "quit" for awhile to prove me wrong. I have no takers yet.

I'm not sure what "quitting" would prove, here.

So while you may have the situation above where a married couple uses pornography together and both enjoy it, the truth is, pornography is not a happy uniting thing that brings couples and people together and helps them have a healthy sexual relationship. How can it be? How is looking at other naked women going to help my love my wife? How is viewing porno going to help me to treat the women around me with respect and dignity in action and thought? Sure, there are isolated incidents where people will say that pornography does no harm and their spouse is fine with it.

I'd counter with how can it not be? You're sharing something intimate, and it helps to generate excitement.

 

[Captain X]

Unlikely, the truth still stands that many of you are not even willing to admit the damage it does to your selves.

It doesn't do any damage to me or anyone else.

All that pornography does is put the body and its passions at the forefront and makes you subject to those desires.

It's also good for your sex life, or does in a pinch if you lack one.

I still say what I said before. Your refusal to quit it even for a time is proof enough that is thing to be avoided.

And I'll say again, too, your assertion is meaningless and in no way proof of anything.

I hope that someday this will not be the case.

And I hope someday you overcome that dogmatic brainwashing

By the way, I feel like I should repeat something I said in a previous thread. I do not mean to sound like I think I am perfect, everyone has problems and weaknesses. Everyone struggles with something.

Saying "no offense" after you've just said something offensive doesn't make it okay.

 

[The Borg Queen]

"No offense Augustus, but you're an idiot."

See what I did there?

When you can back up your opinion with something other than your opinion, we'll listen to your opinion.

 

[Augustus]

no one is listening.. oh well, that makes me sad, I am done here..

 

[Rii]

How is viewing porno going to help me to treat the women around me with respect and dignity in action and thought?

For what it's worth, SCOTUS previously upheld a judgment from the 7th Circuit in which the argument that pornography objectifies women and contributes to continued discrimination against them in wider society went not only unchallenged, but acknowledged:

Therefore we accept the premises of this legislation. Depictions of subordination tend to perpetuate subordination. The subordinate status of women in turn leads to affront and lower pay at work, insult and injury at home, battery and rape on the streets. In the language of the legislature, "pornography is central in creating and maintaining sex as a basis of discrimination. Pornography is a systematic practice of exploitation and subordination based on sex which differentially harms women. The bigotry and contempt it produces, with the acts of aggression it fosters, harm women's opportunities for equality and rights [of all kinds]."

- Link

You have to appreciate any issue that can have religious fundamentalists and radical feminists holding hands together.

 

[The Borg Queen]

No, we're not listening to your diatribe. You sound like a fundie, and nobody respects fundies.

 

[Captain X]

the married couple themselves? That is a little odd. but saying that is wrong would be kind of like saying that seeing yourself in the mirror naked is wrong.

This kind of shows how limited your understanding and your experiences are. For me the most laughable part of any of this is how you insist porn is harmful to marriages, even after you had a married man and a married woman both come on and tell you that it wasn't a problem for them, and yet you ignored them, so the revelation that married people might watch porn just hasn't occurred to you. I bet you'd think it was strange for married couples to use sex toys too. The fact of the matter is that you seem to think a "normal, healthy sexual relationship" consists of something very conservative - it wouldn't surprise me if you thought couples should only have sex missionary style too. Not everyone is the same or has the same attitude about sex, that's the point we're trying to get across to you.

I think I should explain where I am coming from on this topic. I am very active in my church. A part of worthiness to participate in ordinances and such is to be moral, part of which is to be free from viewing pornography.

Right, we all know you think morals aren't relative and are all derived from whatever religious dogma you happen to believe in.

Much of my understanding of the subject comes from these teachings and from personal experiences.

Which I'm guessing are very limited.

The teachings state that personal purity comes from saving sexual relationships for marriage and even then marriage is not a pass to do whatever a perverted mind can imagine.

Religious people think a lot of things are perverted, which is why they are free to not buy porn or to not look it up on the internet. Now normally I wouldn't talk down about that in this fashion, but I don't take kindly when others talk down to me for supposedly being "perverted".

So while pornography shouldn't be illegal,

I find it odd for you to say this, since everything you've said on the matter suggests that you think it should.

it does not help anyone find happiness

I'm looking for a wank or to admire someone's beauty when I look at porn, not happiness. That being said I am plenty happy with my life as it is, and what reasons there are for it to suck are financial, and have nothing to do with teh 3v1L pr0n.

because it is not based on correct principles.

According to you and your dogmatic religion.

And you are all thinking "correct principles according to me".

Yep, pretty much.

But think for a moment on what you can and cannot build a society on. If we all were to start over from scratch somewhere far far away from earth with little resources, I think we would agree that selfishness, self-centeredness, and lack of discipline would be things that we would not want to build our society on.

That has nothing to do with porn.

But these are the kinds of feelings pornography fosters.

No they don't.

It doesn't do anything for anyone but yourself.

Unless you have a partner in which case it can do something for the both of you.

It satisfies YOUR lusts, YOUR desires

Yeah, so?

as if those were the most important.

No, not really

As I said in another thread, in the end, doing the right thing often comes down to not doing what we want to do,

And I challenged that and you weren't able to show any proof of any kind to any of your assertions.

and not following our first impulse, which is exactly the opposite of what pornography teaches.

The only thing porn can teach are some interesting positions or techniques you might not have thought of otherwise. That and that porn can be made out of almost anything.

I have seen a few of my friends get involved in pornography,

So says you and every other activist. What makes my bullshit-o-meter go off is that you keep referring to it as a drug.

one of my brothers has a very strong addiction that is ruining his marriage.

Any addiction can ruin a marriage, whether it's to a controlled substance, or to a sensory input, like gambling or internet discussion boards. Addiction is simply a symptom of a deeper psychological issue, that needs medical assistance to deal with.

One of my non-religious friends from high school who used to look at pornography all the time, said that he had a hard time looking at a woman as anything other than a vehicle for his sexual appetites.

Sure he did, because I'm real sure you have or had such a friend. There are plenty of people who see women in such light, but it doesn't take porn to do that - these people are called misogynists.

Another friend broke up with his girlfriend because she wouldn't act out what he had seen on some pornographic movie.

Then he was a retard, if that's actually true. Part of the point of porn is the fantasy element of it, which is to say it give an outlet for someone who might be into something without involving anyone else. After all, Rosy Palms never says no.

I could relate other experiences.

Suuuure.... I believe you.

These are not extreme circumstances,

Yeah they are.

they are pretty common,

No, not really.

which is why I said earlier that I was curious if any of you that viewed pornography would be willing to "quit" for awhile to prove me wrong.

Which has nothing at all to do with anything, other than a very simplistic "porn is bad" viewpoint.

I have no takers yet.

Shocking... I have no idea why no one would give a shit about what some web crusader thinks they're trying to prove.

So while you may have the situation above where a married couple uses pornography together and both enjoy it, the truth is, pornography is not a happy uniting thing that brings couples and people together and helps them have a healthy sexual relationship.

Uh, no, the truth is you have no idea what you're talking about. Someone told you from a young age all these dogmatic things about sex and sexuality, and you believed them because they wrapped their own warped views on the subject in with the regular religious teachings they were feeding you, and now you;re just regurgitating them for the rest of us.

How can it be?

There were already some people who provided a little information on this subject, and if you didn't have such an arrogant and judgmental attitude about it, you'd probably get some people to explain it to you. So I guess you'll find out when you get older and grow up.

How is looking at other naked women going to help my love my wife? How is viewing porno going to help me to treat the women around me with respect and dignity in action and thought? Sure, there are isolated incidents where people will say that pornography does no harm and their spouse is fine with it.

But that is the exception and not the unfortunate rule. The truth is it is a perversion. Not punishable by law, unless children are involved. And I think we would all agree that child pornography is most distasteful and should be punishable in most circumstances. Nevertheless a perversion, which if we are honest in a desire to do what it right and respect others, one that we would avoid.

I like how you threw kiddie porn in there, too, like it was the same thing. That, would be a strawman argument, and as such you fail. Thanks for playing though.

 

[Captain X]

For what it's worth, SCOTUS previously upheld a judgment from the 7th Circuit in which the argument that pornography objectifies women and contributes to continued discrimination against them in wider society went not only unchallenged, but acknowledged:

Wrong

Addressing other women, she said "Sex isn't something men do to you. It isn't something men get out of you. Sex is something you dive into with gusto and like it every bit as much as he does." Hartley has been an advocate for the adult film industry's right to exist, and, before the rise to stardom of Jenna Jameson, had often been called on when television news programs and talk shows required an articulate, leading adult film actress to support the pro side. She appeared most notably on The Oprah Winfrey Show with fellow porn actress Ona Zee. The two came under hard scrutiny from the mostly female audience, but refused to back down and were outspoken in their support of the industry.

There are plenty of women in the business who object quite a bit when someone tries to tell them that porn objectifies them. Ovidie, a French porn star, actually set out originally to prove porn did objectify women, then ended up getting into it herself because she found that supposition to be wrong:

At the time Ovidie became a porn actress, she was a radical feminist. She first viewed pornography to get a sense of the injustice that was being perpetrated on female industry workers. She found herself surprised when female porn stars, who she once felt sorry for, impressed her with their powerful sexual images. Wanting to attain this same kind of sexual strength, which seemed compatible with feminist ideals, she began acting in pornographic films.

And that's coming from a radical feminist. If you look, you can find plenty of female porn stars talk about how they like (or liked the business if they retired), how they felt anything but objectified, and enough reasons for why they got into it to fill a book. Some like the sex (imagine that, women enjoying sex ) and/or the money, and some of the older ones will even comment on the friendship they had with their fellow stars. Not everyone is going to have the same outlook on sex and sexuality, so while some may find it objectifying, others, including those who are in it, do not.

 

[Pingfah]

How is viewing porno going to help me to treat the women around me with respect and dignity in action and thought?

For what it's worth, SCOTUS previously upheld a judgment from the 7th Circuit in which the argument that pornography objectifies women and contributes to continued discrimination against them in wider society went not only unchallenged, but acknowledged:

Therefore we accept the premises of this legislation. Depictions of subordination tend to perpetuate subordination. The subordinate status of women in turn leads to affront and lower pay at work, insult and injury at home, battery and rape on the streets. In the language of the legislature, "pornography is central in creating and maintaining sex as a basis of discrimination. Pornography is a systematic practice of exploitation and subordination based on sex which differentially harms women. The bigotry and contempt it produces, with the acts of aggression it fosters, harm women's opportunities for equality and rights [of all kinds]."

- Link

You have to appreciate any issue that can have religious fundamentalists and radical feminists holding hands together.

Again, you and Augustus are confusing the porn industry with pornography. Whether the porn industry is exploitative and produces exploitative material is an entirely different question as whether pornography is morally wrong.