The Savage Curtain Heroes and Villains

[LMFAOschwarz]

Of course, on the heroes' side, Kirk did take charge of the group, but it was acknowledged in the story. I always did like how Kirk said to Lincoln, "I don't mean to presume upon your authority.". That was a nice, respectful touch.

Actually, it's a nice touch of Alzheimer's, sine that line was said by Lincoln... Oops!

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Of course, on the heroes' side, Kirk did take charge of the group, but it was acknowledged in the story. I always did like how Kirk said to Lincoln, "I don't mean to presume upon your authority.". That was a nice, respectful touch.

Actually, it's a nice touch of Alzheimer's, sine that line was said by Lincoln... Oops!

Now, that's cold.

 

[Spock's Barber]

I would have like to seen Kirk, Spock, Surak and Lincoln in a fight to the death against the NBC executives who cancelled ST.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Of course, on the heroes' side, Kirk did take charge of the group, but it was acknowledged in the story. I always did like how Kirk said to Lincoln, "I don't mean to presume upon your authority.". That was a nice, respectful touch.

Actually, it's a nice touch of Alzheimer's, sine that line was said by Lincoln... Oops!

Now, that's cold.

Just an honest assessment of my mind these days, TREK_GOD_1... (well, not literally, but all these little things I thought I knew...sheesh! Let's just say you definitely don't want me as a Trivial Pursuit partner!))

 

[Christopher]

I would have like to seen Kirk, Spock, Surak and Lincoln in a fight to the death against the NBC executives who cancelled ST.

Those executives get a bad rap. They actually loved the show and tried their best to keep it around despite the money it was losing them, which was why it even got a second and third season at all. They held onto it as long as they could, but ultimately it just wasn't enough of a ratings success to justify keeping around any longer.

 

[Marsden]

I think that chosing Lincoln, besides the good reasons mentioned already, was a essential to the exchange between he and Uhura where they discuss that labels no longer can hurt them.

LINCOLN: What a charming negress. Oh, forgive me, my dear. I know in my time some used that term as a description of property.
UHURA: But why should I object to that term, sir? You see, in our century we've learned not to fear words.
KIRK: May I present our communications officer, Lieutenant Uhura.
LINCOLN: The foolishness of my century had me apologising where no offense was given.
KIRK: We've each learned to be delighted with what we are. ...

With another leader, that exchange wouldn't have fit as well and that's an important part of this episode. The action is just a vehicle for the themes of "we've grown beyond predjudice" (at least between humans) and also "what is good and what is evil". Very high concepts that can be missed to watch the 4 man tag team wrestling match the action shows. Or is that a survivor series, I haven't been watching too much wrestling lately.

I also like the final discussion between Kirk and Rocky:

KIRK: How many others have you done this to? What gives you the right to hand out life and death?
ROCK: The same right that brought you here. The need to know new things.
KIRK: We came in peace.
ROCK: And you may go in peace.

I really like these concepts and it elevates the whole to a lot more than mindless action, something that's sometimes missed in later incarnations of Star Trek.

 

[Spock's Barber]

I would have like to seen Kirk, Spock, Surak and Lincoln in a fight to the death against the NBC executives who cancelled ST.

Those executives get a bad rap. They actually loved the show and tried their best to keep it around despite the money it was losing them, which was why it even got a second and third season at all. They held onto it as long as they could, but ultimately it just wasn't enough of a ratings success to justify keeping around any longer.

That's what Herb Solow said, too. ST was cancelled because the Neilsen ratings were low, which meant incoming advertisement revenues also dropped. In his words, "ST was not profitable."

 

[johnnybear]

...
[/QUOTE]With another leader, that exchange wouldn't have fit as well and that's an important part of this episode. The action is just a vehicle for the themes of "we've grown beyond predjudice" (at least between humans) and also "what is good and what is evil". Very high concepts that can be missed to watch the 4 man tag team wrestling match the action shows. Or is that a survivor series, I haven't been watching too much wrestling lately.


No, Wrestling hasn't been much fun since King Kong Bundy and Demolition left the WWF has it!
JB

 

[telerites]

I also like the final discussion between Kirk and Rocky:

KIRK: How many others have you done this to? What gives you the right to hand out life and death?
ROCK: The same right that brought you here. The need to know new things.
KIRK: We came in peace.
ROCK: And you may go in peace.

Notice Shatner's pause before he delivers - "We come in peace." I thought it was great - I got the feeling he wants to continue the verbal assault but thinks better of it and it ends it with a a notable line.

I have often wondered whether this was the actor, the script, the director, etc. Or it could be that I just noticed something that isn't even there...

 

[Warped9]

I don't mind that they choae Lincoln although there could have been other choices. The inclusion of Surak was interesting primarily because it was a nice bit of historical worldbuilding.

The idea of using Green could also be seen as a bit of historical worldbuilding, but I never got the sense he was a "superman" like Khan. I think Green was just an ambitious shmuck trying to take advantage of early 21st century unrest and happened to be somewhat more nasty and notorious than similar comtemporaries because there's nothing particulatly distinctive about him.

The inclusion of Kahless could have been interesting, but then all the villians got short changed here. Zora and Ghingas Khan could have been anybody because as they were portrayed they were essentially nobodies.

We also have to remember that these villians were imagined by television writers rather than historians. As such we would be more likely to see generally accepted thumbnail sketch portrayals rather than more historically accurate ones.

 

[Christopher]

You know, this episode could've been an opportunity to bring back Montalban as a "virtual" Khan. But the third-season producers probably had little familiarity with or interest in characters from the earlier seasons.

 

[Timo]

We also have to address Kirk's attitudes towards the potential players (or NPCs, really) as a function of the events of the show. Garth might have been a great idol, but Kirk's mind had already undergone experiences that would have toppled him from that pedestal. Likewise with Gill. Khan would be an ambiguous mess in Kirk's head, too: he rather liked the guy, but then he met him...

Lincoln would probably still remain "pure" in Kirk's mind, just like Surak in Spock's. Unless the latter came from Kirk's mind, too?

I rather like the all-new cabinet of horrors we got, and agree that the problems with the setup are more fundamental than the NPC choices.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Spock's Barber]

You know, this episode could've been an opportunity to bring back Montalban as a "virtual" Khan. But the third-season producers probably had little familiarity with or interest in characters from the earlier seasons.

I remember that ST writer Margaret Arman had a meeting with Fred Freiburger as he was struggling to gain familiarity with the ST universe. As they were watching some of the second season episodes, Freiburger suddenly exclaimed, "Oh, I get it! Tits in space!" True story? Who knows?

 

[velour]

I wonder if Genghis' inclusion wasn't in response to something going on in real life or the geopolitical scene

You mean like the Vietnam War? I dunno. It's been pretty common in the West for a long time to paint Genghis Khan as a genocidal monster and an archetype of evil, even to use his name (usually mispronounced with a hard "G" at the beginning) as a metaphor for a brutal, tyrannical person. If a 1960s American TV writer was looking for a historical archetype of an evil dictator and declined to use Hitler or Stalin for some reason, there's a very good chance they'd pick either Genghis Khan or Attila the Hun.

Your comments reminded me of (very controversial) words that John Kerry, the current US Secretary of State, once uttered.

"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

He said it in front of a Senate committee during the Vietnam War. He was accusing US soldiers of committing the acts that are in the quote. But that's not the point of this post. Notice the reference to Genghis Khan. Apparently that was how Genghis Khan was viewed at that time. I believe the Senate hearing in which these words were said took place in 1971.

 

[Zaminhon]

Lincoln scared me when I first watched the episode as a kid. I don't know if it was intentional or just bad makeup, but I noticed that Lincoln started to age and deteriorate toward the end with dark circles under his eyes and highlighted furrows and creases in his face. I thought I even noticed a green tinge (perhaps it was my TV at the time). I was expecting that he was slowly transforming into his natural lava creature appearance.

It's definitely not one of my favorite episodes and I haven't watched it in years. I'll have to take another look to see if I was imagining things or did Lincoln actually start to degrade as I imagined? if I'm right and he did, I'm wondering if it was intentional or was it due to just bad make-up.

Sorry if this has been brought up before ... I tried to search and got a lot of Lincoln hits, but nothing specifically addressing this.

 

[Marsden]

Lincoln scared me when I first watched the episode as a kid. I don't know if it was intentional or just bad makeup, but I noticed that Lincoln started to age and deteriorate toward the end with dark circles under his eyes and highlighted furrows and creases in his face. I thought I even noticed a green tinge (perhaps it was my TV at the time). I was expecting that he was slowly transforming into his natural lava creature appearance.

It's definitely not one of my favorite episodes and I haven't watched it in years. I'll have to take another look to see if I was imagining things or did Lincoln actually start to degrade as I imagined? if I'm right and he did, I'm wondering if it was intentional or was it due to just bad make-up.

Sorry if this has been brought up before ... I tried to search and got a lot of Lincoln hits, but nothing specifically addressing this.

I kind of noticed that, too. Especially the lines on his forhead seem darker or deeper, maybe the lighting on the planet set was different than on the ship? I don't think it "meant" anything storywise, I never gave it a thought until you mentioned it.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I don't mind that they choae Lincoln although there could have been other choices. The inclusion of Surak was interesting primarily because it was a nice bit of historical worldbuilding.

The idea of using Green could also be seen as a bit of historical worldbuilding,

That is what Green's purpose served--with each season Trek continued to fill the world with events, culture and history. Aside from Green, in season 3, we were treated to IDIC, Garth (and a glimpse into his history), and the Preservers--the latter being significant in explaining the presence of so many humanoid cultures encountered.

Even as TOS ran out of gas in that final season, the creatives did not slack off on the continued creation of a universe.

I never got the sense he was a "superman" like Khan. I think Green was just an ambitious shmuck trying to take advantage of early 21st century unrest and happened to be somewhat more nasty and notorious than similar comtemporaries because there's nothing particulatly distinctive about him.

He was not supposed to be a product of genetic engineering--but he suffered from his own form of megalomania like Khan.

We also have to remember that these villians were imagined by television writers rather than historians. As such we would be more likely to see generally accepted thumbnail sketch portrayals rather than more historically accurate ones.

Exactly. The only historical figures that really mattered were Lincoln, Green and Surak--they either motivated action, or inspired reaction in Kirk & Spock. The others were there to be numbers, but it was not necessary for them to be more than the evil add-ons as (apparently) designed.

 

[Corylea]

I thought the selection of Lincoln was supposed to be a character-revealing moment for Kirk. Part of the answer to "Who is Kirk?" is "he's a person who venerates Lincoln." Giving Kirk a fictional, in-universe person (like Garth) to admire wouldn't have had the same character-building effect, because the audience didn't already have a lot of associations to such a person.

 

[velour]

One of the amusing scenes from this episode was Spock's initial reaction to meeting Surak.

It was like an awkward moment between two individuals.

SURAK: Live long and prosper, Spock. May you also, Captain Kirk.

SPOCK: It is not logical that you are Surak. There is no fact, extrapolation of fact or theory, which would make possible.

SURAK: Whatever I am, would it harm you to give response?

SPOCK: Live long and prosper, image of Surak, father of all we now hold true.

I chuckled when Surak scolded Spock and then Spock responded by calling Surak, "image" of Surak. There were no polite niceties, no sentimentalism in Spock's greeting. Just cold hard logic.

Contrast this with Kirk's warm pomp and circumstance welcoming of Lincoln to the Enterprise.

 

[Corylea]

I got a chuckle out of Spock calling Surak, "image" of Surak. There were no polite niceties, no sentimentalism in Spock's greeting. Just cold hard logic.

Contrast this with Kirk's warm pomp and circumstance welcoming of Lincoln to the Enterprise.

You're right, that was a nice moment. And of course, Spock was right -- it WAS only the image of Surak.

There was a filmed interview with Leonard Nimoy for the Archive of American Television where the interviewer was talking about some of the great moments in Star Trek and said, "And you got to meet Lincoln!" And Mr. Nimoy says mildly that it wasn't one of their better episodes.